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NotWorthy
Guest
And all Christians are illogical? I wasn’t aware of that.
I guess you believe in the Big Bang Theory. Let me ask you, what created the Big Bang? What created the material that made up the Big Bang?
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I guess you believe in the Big Bang Theory. Let me ask you, what created the Big Bang? What created the material that made up the Big Bang?
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
Some thoughts for you…Yes Lily m, this and what Not worthy and Roman Army have posted is what the Catholic Church teaches.Carlan
Yet it is still confusing, for the explanation is quite incomplete. To the bosom of Abraham, the Just would necessarily be those who ‘believed’ – for it is faith which saves.
Yet notice what St. Peter says in 3:18-20:
RKV (Catholic, approved)
…and it was in his spirit that he went and preached to the spirits who lay in prison. Long before, they had refused belief, hoping that God would be patient with them in the days of Noe.
RSV-CE
“… who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building [forming] of the ark, in which a few, that is eight persons were saved through water.”
And notice how it connects with this difficult passage:
Psalm 67 (68 in some…):18
[Not in my copy of the LXX, but apparently in others…]
See where God comes, with chariots innumerable for his escort; thousands upon thousands; comes for Sinai, his sanctuary. Thou doest mount up on high, thou doest capture thy spoil, and men must be thy tribute, will they or not, yonder heathen must have the Lord God for their neighbor.
RSVCE – masoretic/Hebrew text:
With mighty chariotry, twice ten thousand, thousands upon thousands, the Lord came from Sinai into the Holy Place. (or … The Lord among them Sinai in the holy place) Thou didst ascend the high mount, leading captives in they train, and receiving gifts among men, even among the rebellious, that the Lord God may dwell there.
and again, St. Paul, Ephesians 4:8-10
Therefore it is said,"
When he ascended on high, he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."
(In saying, He ascended, what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things).
The later Nicean Creed omits the descended portion when I look at the Greek;
unless the copy I have is corrupt – This statement is only in the older Apostle’s Creed.
κατε-λθόντα εις τα κατ-ώτατ-α
down-coming into the depths
The word depths is neither Hades nor Hell, nor even necessarily the abode of the dead. For a counter-example; it is the word used of psalm 139 (138 in some bibles); RSV-CE 139:15
“Thou knowest me right well; my frame was not hidden from thee; when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.”
Psalm 138:15 ουκ εκρυβη το οστουν μου απο σου ο εποιησας εν κρυφη και η υποστασις μου εν τοις κατ-ωτατ-οις της γης
There is a comparison here in psalm 139, as in the book of Job with “depths” being a “womb” – and as Adam was “earthy” eg:the clay or material from a watery source; the typical usage of this word is with respect to an ocean ( womb or “deep” pit ).
The Latin merely says (and I am using another’s defnitions as I don’t know Latin well) – descended into the lower regions. ( infernis ).
See also Lamentations 3:53 - 3:56 ; in 3:55 it says " εκ λακκ-ου κατ-ωτατ-ου"
Out [of a] cistern/well deep – The cistern/well here is any hole which holds prisoners; eg: Daniel’s lion den, Zecharia;s 9:11 “waterless pit” – prisoners of hope. Especially see Jerimiah 2:13 – for the same connection, but explicit with the forsaking of the fountain of living waters; Jesus the “wellspring” of living waters.
There is in traditional interpretation an idea that upon conquering Sion and RE-taking his temple (ascending to heaven at the right hand); that these “gifts” are given to men via the holy spirit. Wisdom, understanding, knowledge, etc… fear of the lord.
There is an apparent disagreement between the psalm and Paul’s writing – but I would like to point out that giving and receiving with respect to God are one and the same ceremony. eu-charist is either the Good Gift, OR, the thanks giving.
In many of the OT sacrifices, eg: the “Wave offering”, the offering is shown to God, only to be received back by man. It is both gift (of God) and thanks (of man).
Jesus’ body is the temple, the “chariot” is already mentioned in the rising from the dead, and the body of christ (thousands upon thousands of the church militant) are also storming the captured city of God to retake the sanctuary.
I would also like to point out, that earth (where we live) is not heaven – yet Jesus is here; the argument that his appearing in “hell” would cause it not to be “hell” is in fact false – for earth did not become heaven, but only those whom believed beheld the vision in the icon of Christ’s body. Analogically, if Christ descended to Hell – as in the damned or the abode of the dead, neither of which I am certain Peter intends, it would not cease to be hell.
But, every knee must bend – even those in the lower regions of the earth. infernis – or inferno.
In peter’s writing, however, the days of Noe appears to be the key to interpreting the meaning of “descending to the depths”; There also comes to mind, the hope of the church that the “unbaptized” infants could be saved – as surely those marrying and given in marriage in the days of Noah had some pregnancies. etc. But there are many ideas that need to be combed through to understand church teaching – and the fullness of what Peter and Paul mean, much of which appears to be lost in (post)modern scholarship…
Pax Tecum,
–Andrew.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
Errata:
Sorry, I tried to clean up the choppy sentences earlier, but got the 20 minute limit blockout…
I also meant the book of Jonas, not Job… sorry.
–Andrew.
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cantheist
Guest
How is it more logical that god has always been. What created the material that made up god? Just because science has not discovered the origin of matter douse not make your belief in god more logical. The unknown douse not mean you need to cling to a fairy tail.
To a child a living room full of presents mean Santa is true but they soon realize that they spent there life believing in fairy tales. Will you spend your adult life with the same childish belief in magical people that know when you have been good or bad? You do not even get presents from him on Christmas day. The child at least has a excuse for his foolish beliefs his parents go to a lot of trouble to deceive him. Who is deceiving you?
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NotWorthy
Guest
No, but one law of science is that you can’t create something out of nothing. There is no possible way. So, my atheist god-hater, it looks like you are the one living in a fairy tale.
BTW, do you have any idea how many scientists are Christians? Wouldn’t this be an oxymoron to you?
The only one being deceived is the one who believes that order can come out of chaos.
Throw a bunch of pieces of gears and watch pieces in the air. If it ever comes down as a working watch, give me a call. I’ll start believing (or would it be disbelieving).
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