Jesus did not die on Cross: some arguments by D.F.Strauss

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey (and Snow), do you believe that Socrates existed?

Also, paarsurrey, I respectfully request that you stop adding “I love Jesus and Mary” to the end of your posts. Your actions are speaking louder than your words. If you truly loved Jesus, you’d worship Him; if you truly loved Mary, you’d honor her.

Hi

I think you have not expressed my position correctly. Since I love Jesus and Mary, the real ones as mentioned by Quran; I don’t have to worship them both, not at all.

I have expressed what is my belief about Jesus and Mary as per Quran and I have to love them as per Quran; I know your position is different. You are free to believe what you think is truthful; and that does not anger me.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally Posted by wanner47
paarsurrey (and Snow), do you believe that Socrates existed?

Hi

I think Socrates was a good person like Jesus and Mary. Socrates has been mentioned by so many reliable sources; so I don’t hesitate in describing that he existed historicaly. I have never read anything foul from him anywhere; all wise and intelligent as a good human being should be.

I think perhaps you don’t believe that he existed; only because he is not mentioned in the NTBible. Do you?

Thanks

 

[wanner47]

Hi

I think you have not expressed my position correctly. Since I love Jesus and Mary, the real ones as mentioned by Quran; I don’t have to worship them both, not at all.

Why do you love a man who claimed to be the Son of God, God Incarnate, and a man greater even than your prophet? And how can you claim to honor Mary if you reject her Son?

I have expressed what is my belief about Jesus and Mary as per Quran and I have to love them as per Quran; I know your position is different. You are free to believe what you think is truthful; and that does not anger me.

I still don’t understand why you love a man who said he was God. Isn’t that considered blasphemy to Muslims?

Do you believe that Socrates existed?

 

[wanner47]

Hi

I think Socrates was a good person like Jesus and Mary. Socrates has been mentioned by so many reliable sources; so I don’t hesitate in describing that he existed historicaly. I have never read anything foul from him anywhere; all wise and intelligent as a good human being should be.

I think perhaps you don’t believe that he existed; only because he is not mentioned in the NTBible. Do you?

Thanks

Re: the bolded portion – actually, that’s not entirely true. From the article I linked above:

Socrates did not write philosophical texts. The knowledge of the man, his life, and his philosophy is based on writings by his students and contemporaries. Foremost among them is Plato; however, works by Xenophon, Aristotle, and Aristophanes also provide important insights.[4] The difficulty of finding the “real” Socrates arises because these works are often philosophical or dramatic texts rather than straightforward histories. Aside from Thucydides (who makes no mention of Socrates or philosophers in general), there is in fact no such thing as a straightforward history contemporary with Socrates that dealt with his own time and place. A corollary of this is that the sources which do mention Socrates don’t necessarily claim to be historically accurate, and are often partisan (those who prosecuted and convicted Socrates have left no testament). Historians therefore face the challenge of reconciling the various texts that come from these men to create an accurate and consistent account of Socrates’ life and work.

There’s more evidence for Jesus’ existence and subsequent crucifixion than there is for Socrates’ existence. Why do you believe in Socrates but not in Jesus’ divinity?

 

[John1]

Historical sources say that the Romans were experts when it came to executing people. I very seriously doubt that they would not have been certain that Jesus was actually dead. Your logic is flawed. I think you are in the “nutty Alah mode”.

 

[paarsurrey]

Romans were experts when it came to executing people. D

Hi

In other words your religion is based on Roman Excutioners, if I have correctly understood, and not on NTBible. Isn’t it a queer thing? Surely it is, in my opinion.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

Re: the bolded portion – actually, that’s not entirely true. From the article I linked above:

There’s more evidence for Jesus’ existence and subsequent crucifixion than there is for Socrates’ existence. Why do you believe in Socrates but not in Jesus’ divinity?

Hi.

Thanks for helping out on that.

God bless.

 

[cathopologist]

Hi

In other words your religion is based on Roman Excutioners, if I have correctly understood, and not on NTBible. Isn’t it a queer thing? Surely it is, in my opinion

How did you even come to that conclusion? You just implied our religion is based on torture, pain and death. Losing our cool, are we? You know, if i was to seriously compare religions, yours would fit the bill perfectly, more than any other religion on earth.

 

[paarsurrey]

Re: the bolded portion – actually, that’s not entirely true. From the article I linked above:

There’s more evidence for Jesus’ existence and subsequent crucifixion than there is for Socrates’ existence. Why do you believe in Socrates but not in Jesus’ divinity?

Hi

My religion is not based on whether Socrates existed or not existed. I don’t believe Socrates as god; similarly I don’t believe Jesus to be god. In fact it does not matter to me if Jesus’ existence is proved historically or that he did not exist; as I only believe in him and Mary as they have been mentioned in Quran- the prisitine and secure Word of God Allah.

There are thousands of Messengers Prophets whose names have not been mentioned by Quran yet a Muslim has to believe in them as a principle that they existed as humans not as gods.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

 

[cathopologist]

In fact it does not matter to me if Jesus existed or not existed; as I only believe in him and Mary as they have been mentioned in Quran- the prisitine and secure Word of God.

In order for you to believe in Jesus as how the Qu’ran interprets, you first have to believe in Jesus’ existence. If you do not believe in His existence, then you are denying what the Qu’ran believes.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi

Planten asked simple question which you have now answered. I don’t know what was in that question which angered you and you had to be patient with.

I am sorry planten if I misunderstood you. I thought the issue is whether Jesus died on the cross or not. I had explained many of the possible causes of the death which you did not acknowledge.

Anyway that is not the issue.

As you have replied now “Well, I do not know. But the writer, especially John, had Mary the mother of Jesus lived with him after the crucifixion.”

Planten asked as to where was Mary :"I know that at least two Mary’s were there at the time of crucifixion effort. I know that they were eye witnesses. I want to know, Where were they 20 or 30 years later?"

It is for that that I have been stating here that the accounts of the gospels are only a partial accounts of Jesus and Mary’s life. It has to be as the gospel writers did not go with Jesus and Mary on their journey.

Quran just by mentioning that God Allah gave Jesus and Mary a refuge in a country with comfort and fountains; speaks volumes about their life accounts.

Mary stayed with John and eventually settled in what is now Turkey until Mary was assumed to heaven. If you go to Turkey today you may find the site where Mary and the apostle John supposed to live. John was later exiled to an island Pathmos in the Mediterranean. BTW John was a Gospel writer and wrote another book and a couple of epistles in the NT.

I think we have more evidence that Jesus was crucified than what you claimed that Jesus and Mary went on a journey to India. In those days it is impossible had Jesus survived the ordeal to travel on treacherous journey from Jerusalem all the way to India. They certainly did not have air conditioned coach like what you have now. Without modern medicine I doubt he would even make the journey.

 

[paarsurrey]

I am sorry planten if I misunderstood you. I thought the issue is whether Jesus died on the cross or not. I had explained many of the possible causes of the death which you did not acknowledge.

Mary stayed with John and eventually settled in what is now Turkey until Mary was assumed to heaven. If you go to Turkey today you may find the site where Mary and the apostle John supposed to live. John was later exiled to an island Pathmos in the Mediterranean. BTW John was a Gospel writer and wrote another book and a couple of epistles in the NT.

I think we have more evidence that Jesus was crucified than what you claimed that Jesus and Mary went on a journey to India. In those days it is impossible had Jesus survived the ordeal to travel on treacherous journey from Jerusalem all the way to India. They certainly did not have air conditioned coach like what you have now. Without modern medicine I doubt he would even make the journey.

Hi

As for the tough journey; no doubt it was, but there are human beings travelling like that. One such person is Alexander the great with a large army.

The miralces are naturally possible and yet not mythical; he got cured with the treatment, and that is what happened with Jesus; only his spirit or soul went to God Allah while his body remained very much on this earth.

Regarding Mary’s living in Turkey with John might be your opinion only.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi

As for the tough journey; no doubt it was, but there are human beings travelling like that. One such person is Alexander the great with a large army.

The miralces are naturally possible and yet not mythical; he got cured with the treatment, and that is what happened with Jesus; only his spirit or soul went to God Allah while his body remained very much on this earth.

Regarding Mary’s living in Turkey with John might be your opinion only.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

I get offended when you decide what I say is my opinion only, planten. If it is my opinion, I will say so. Surely this is not a way to discuss, no?

Please show us the details of the journey then.

BTW, surely you know that Alexander the Great was a soldier who led an army. He fell sick along the way and died. I maintain my view, and yes this IS my opinion, that Jesus could not have made it to India after what he had been through.

 

[Reuben_J]

Correction: That was paarsurrey.

 

[paarsurrey]

IPlease show us the details of the journey then.
.

Hi

Kindly access the following:alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch4.html

You will see the map of Jesus’ journey to India. For details please read chapter four of the same book.

Kindly copy/paste here the map for the benefit of other members also; I don’t know the computer technique to copy a photo here, and I know you know how to do it.

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi

Kindly access the following:alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch4.html

You will see the map of Jesus’ journey to India. For details please read chapter four of the same book.

Kindly copy/paste here the map for the benefit of other members also; I don’t know the computer technique to copy a photo here, and I know you know how to do it.

Thanks

Paarsurrey, anybody can draw a map. I just responded to your account of the journey in the other thread. We would want evidence like photographs, places of habitation, grave, etc, because the era of nineteenth century can produce all these. You can even examine the DNA today. Things that happen about 100 years ago are not too long.

Now there seems to be some confusion since you say the journey was from Jerusalem. Was that two thousand years ago or last century? Either ways it shows that Jesus is not any ordinary man contrary to what you assert. How could any ordinary man live for two thousand years and if he did not live on earth for the most part, where else could he be? In any case this is not what an ordinary man can do. Your theory does not make sense.

 

[planten]

I get offended when you decide what I say is my opinion only, planten. If it is my opinion, I will say so. Surely this is not a way to discuss, no?

Please show us the details of the journey then.

BTW, surely you know that Alexander the Great was a soldier who led an army. He fell sick along the way and died. I maintain my view, and yes this IS my opinion, that Jesus could not have made it to India after what he had been through.

**
Reuben J, please consult the book "Jesus in Heaven on Earth’. You will get some photographs, maps and documents in that book.

It is reported that Jesus was welcome at many places and one king offered Jesus a horse. He rode the horse a little while but then returned it saying that it was not suitable.

Jesus was not rejected by the people of the east. he lived a long good and happy life of 120 years. He was true in saying that the Prophets are not disrespected except in their own country. (bibleNT)**

 

[paarsurrey]

We would want evidence like photographs, places of habitation, grave, etc, because the era of nineteenth century can produce all these. You can even examine the DNA today. Things that happen about 100 years ago are not too long.

Hi

How could I know as to what you want unless you could have mentioned?

Well, there is a lot of information available in this connection; naturally it cannot be condensed to one post; you shall have to be patient with the information.

You may accessid Jesus die on the Cross? a BBC documentary
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1669658378154953060&q

BBC 4 Documentary - An investigation of the many stories surrounding the New Testament account of the Crucifixion. Historians and theologians reveal the latest theories about the events of 2,000 years ago.
Category: Education
Tags:
jesus documentary christianity christian god christ lord faith religion bible atheist
The Hidden Story of Jesus | Channel 4

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Are planten and paarsurrey the same and one person? Your literary style and the use of fonts are very similar.

Careful, Reuben J; People might think you and I are the same person.

I’ve said the same thing before on other threads. (example)

 

[wanner47]

Hi

My religion is not based on whether Socrates existed or not existed. I don’t believe Socrates as god; similarly I don’t believe Jesus to be god. In fact it does not matter to me if Jesus’ existence is proved historically or that he did not exist; as I only believe in him and Mary as they have been mentioned in Quran- the prisitine and secure Word of God Allah.

There are thousands of Messengers Prophets whose names have not been mentioned by Quran yet a Muslim has to believe in them as a principle that they existed as humans not as gods.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

Your argument seems to be that there’s not enough evidence to support the fact that Jesus was crucified – thoroughly crucified, so that it was impossible for anyone to survive. Yet there is more evidence for that then there is for the existence of Socrates.

Why do you believe that Socrates existed, but you don’t believe in Jesus’ crucifixion? There is *much *more evidence for the latter than there is for the former.