Jesus did not die on Cross: some arguments by D.F.Strauss

[paarsurrey]

and **Bokharan Jews of **Persia. These are in addition to the Indian people that you are probably refering to, like the Bnei Menashe. This matter is far from settled!

Hi

I think dzheremi, planten and others would enjoy reading the following news item on Bnei Menashe.

israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/128972

**A Chanukah Treat for India’s “Lost Tribe” Bnei Menashe **
by Malkah Fleisher Published: 12/22/08, 12:56 PM

(IsraelNN.com) The Bnei Menashe of northeastern India will have an added reason to celebrate this week with the release of a new book on the laws and customs of Chanukah in their native languages of Mizo and Kuki as well as Hebrew.

Calling themselves the “sons of Menasseh” due to their belief that they are descendants of the lost tribe named after one of Jacob’s 12 sons, the group is increasing its adherence to ancient Jewish customs despite a long hiatus in many Jewish practices, thanks to the Shavei Israel
The ancestors of the Bnei Menashe, who observed Jewish Sabbath, kosher, and sexual laws for generations, were exiled 560years prior to the war and miracles commemorated during the Chanukah holiday, making this the first Chanukah ever for some members of the group.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I have given just an excerpt, those interested in detail may visit the website given above.

I love Moses, his mother, as I do love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

 

[swariffin]

Makkah is not suitable because there are no rivers or fountains there. Bali and Calcutta and Montana, Bombay, Delhi likewise have no fountains and lush green valleys.\QUOTE]

No other place is more beautiful than Kashmir, according to the Indian. No other place better than California, according to the Californian. Who determine “beautiful” anyway? Montana has lush green valley, you know. Yellowstone has lush green valley and warm to hot water fountain, you know. Ever been there. Hey, if a man is given the task to determine the beauty of a place, more certainly he/she chooses his/her motherland. Subjectivity is highly present here, my dear friend
planten;4581627:

Most important of all the LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL were not in Bombay or calcutta or Bali. Jesus had gone in search of the lost sheep (Ten Tribes) of Israel as he had mentioned them in his sermons. You please tell where were those ten tribes and then the matter will be solved easily.

Ho ho ho… LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL. Do you know the history of Israel? When the northern kingdom of Israel fall into the Assyrian Kingdom, the Israelite were taken away from their promised land. When they return back to the promised land, 10 out of 12 tribes of Israel had married away to the non Israelite so much that there were no genuine blood of Israelite anymore. It is just like the Indian Cherokee in USA, which were married away to another race, to the extend there is no more 100% genuine Indian Cherokee blood. The decendent of the 10 tribe of Israel, were called the Samaritan. The Jew hated them since the Jew accused them as no longer pure. Jesus has much care to the Samaritan, so much that Jesus passed their villages during His service, although banned by the Pharisee. That Samaritan has still maintain the “perigee” of Jacob, but live more or less away from the Thorah and the will of God. That is why Jesus preached about the “Lost Sheep of Israel”. Do you think Jesus is somehow like Indiana Jones?

 

[planten]

planten;4581627:

Makkah is not suitable because there are no rivers or fountains there. Bali and Calcutta and Montana, Bombay, Delhi likewise have no fountains and lush green valleys.\QUOTE]

No other place is more beautiful than Kashmir, according to the Indian. No other place better than California, according to the Californian. Who determine “beautiful” anyway? Montana has lush green valley, you know. Yellowstone has lush green valley and warm to hot water fountain, you know. Ever been there. Hey, if a man is given the task to determine the beauty of a place, more certainly he/she chooses his/her motherland. Subjectivity is highly present here, my dear friend

Ho ho ho… LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL. Do you know the history of Israel? When the northern kingdom of Israel fall into the Assyrian Kingdom, the Israelite were taken away from their promised land. When they return back to the promised land, 10 out of 12 tribes of Israel had married away to the non Israelite so much that there were no genuine blood of Israelite anymore.

It is just like the Indian Cherokee in USA, which were married away to another race, to the extend there is no more 100% genuine Indian Cherokee blood. The decendent of the 10 tribe of Israel, were called the Samaritan. The Jew hated them since the Jew accused them as no longer pure. Jesus has much care to the Samaritan, so much that Jesus passed their villages during His service, although banned by the Pharisee. That Samaritan has still maintain the “perigee” of Jacob, but live more or less away from the Thorah and the will of God. That is why Jesus preached about the “Lost Sheep of Israel”. Do you think Jesus is somehow like Indiana Jones?

**That means Jesus did not know about the lost sheep of Israel and you know more than Jesus.

Your post is not more than a joke on Jesus**

 

[Reuben_J]

You cannot even answer the questions brought forward by others in this thread. Instead, you merry-go-round and beat around the bush. You are supposed to answer questions relating to Islam, this is a Catholic forum and we need reliable answers. It does your religion no good if you cannot provide the answers we heathens so desperately seek.

You are right. I think this thread is considered done with. The answer is, **the Ahmadis do not know **where the grave of Jesus is.

 

[swariffin]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4581707#post4581707
Bokharan Jews of Persia

Hi

I want to facilitate dzheremi, planten and others to trace the Lost Sheep of Israel or Lost Ten Tribes of Israel to whom Jesus was sent as mentioned in the NTBible and Quran also says Jesus was but a Messenger of God Allah to the Israelis or Jews, not to the Gentiles as mislead by Paul, in my opinion.

Kindly also contribute to the new thread as mentioned above “Bokharan Jews of Persia”

I love Jesus and Buddha as I love Moses, his mother and Mary.

Thanks

It is you who did not read Mat 28:16-20. Forget about Paul. Since this verses are the very last section of the gospel of Matthew, perhaps your bible was torn away in that page, so you missed this verse entirely, and keep on bringing the issue that Jesus’ mission was for the Jew only, again and again despite being told for zillion of time. Make sure before you bring this issue again, read this verses first, and argue with me of what this verses mean.

 

[swariffin]

swariffin;4584977:

**That means Jesus did not know about the lost sheep of Israel and you know more than Jesus.

Your post is not more than a joke on Jesus**

Indeed Jesus know about it. So, He wandered to the Samarintan town very often. Even use the Samaritan as one of His parable. Sorry, you don’t understand my posting, and yet making false conclusion.

 

[swariffin]

You are right. I think this thread is considered done with. The answer is, **the Ahmadis do not know **where the grave of Jesus is.

Yep, and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has already made 2 guesses which were wrong, and made the third one. Too bad, he died already. And the third guess he made, was also based on hearsay. He might argue that the angel of Jibril told him so, and we have the repetitious story of what happened in 600 AD in the land of Arabia.

 

[swariffin]

Calling themselves the “sons of Menasseh” **due to their belief **that they are descendants of the lost tribe named after one of Jacob’s 12 sons, the group is increasing its adherence to ancient Jewish customs despite a long hiatus in many Jewish practices, thanks to the Shavei Israel

So, when a group claim themselves to be the descendants of the Jewish, you will take it for granted. In that case, look at Mormonism. They claim that some of the Jew went to America. Go ahead and tell D.F Strauss, so that you can name another lost tribe of Israel in the USA.

 

[planten]

Yep, and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has already made 2 guesses which were wrong, and made the third one. Too bad, he died already. And the third guess he made, was also based on hearsay. He might argue that the angel of Jibril told him so, and we have the repetitious story of what happened in 600 AD in the land of Arabia.

** swariffin, it is certain that Jesus either died here on earth or he went up to the heavens alive. The possibility of going to heavens is remote. So the next place is only death on earth.

The Quran did not use the word death for Jesus. It rather used the word “Passed away” peacefully. No disrespect for Jesus.

Since he passed away here on earth then he must be buried some where on earth. Your guess can be as good as mine or any one else. And please do not forget the lost sheep of Israel (the Ten tribes of Israelis). You should go after them and find out where they were.

I am sure you will come to the same conclusion that had been drawn by the Ahmadis. It is only research work. God told Hazrat Ahmad that Jesus was not alive. Jesus died peacefully. God did not tell him that his grave is in Sirinagar. Thanks to Allah that the grave (last resting place) of Jesus has been found. It is good for the great man of God i.e. (Jesus).**

 

[Valke2]

books.google.com/books?id=5_AFAAAAQAAJ&dq=David+Friedrich+Strauss&pg=PP1&ots=TMIbC1XftR&source=an&sig=QczkC8xI3qTQe5R73fxjoGbeJns&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPA409,M1

“A New Life of Jesus” By David Friedrich Strauss (1808 –1874),a German theologian and writer.

Listen. I’m Jewish. I have no vested interest in the life of Jesus whatsoever. But this has got to be the 10,000th post you made trying to convince christians that their bible is wrong, that the very foundation of their faith is wrong and that God did in fact use a magic trick to deceive everyone (if so, it would have been nice of Him to use the same trick for the tens of thousands of Jews that were crucified before and after Jesus).

There are lots of theological issues that are open to debate and can benefit from discussion. This does not seem to be one of them.

I can argue that Mohammed was a practicing Jew all his life or that he suffered from hallucinations and back it up with the same kind of reasoning that you rely on to argue that God used a cheap parlor trick to make people think Jesus died.

I don’t expect you to change your belief on this one. But is there really any point to repeating this argument yet again?

 

[paarsurrey]

Valke2; 4588549:

Listen. I’m Jewish. I have no vested interest in the life of Jesus whatsoever. But **this has got to be the 10,000th post you made **

Hi Valke2!

I think you are a reasonable man; yet you have made an error which could have been easily removed, as the Catholic Forum mentions number of posts of every member on every post, which are mine only 3,561 while yours are 7,030.

I have no objection on that; my submission is that we human beings make mistakes that can only be covered by humanity by divine revelation. Word of God revealed on the Messengers Prophets in the whole world becomes in a sense in my opinion the Book which could rescue us from this erroneous position we have in our nature.

So the Books revealed on Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Lao Tzu, Socrates, Confucius, Moses, Jesus, Second Coming 1835-1908 etc, could become the source of love and peace with certainty for the whole of world, to the extent it have been protected and secured by humanity from the debris of time and mythical overtones.

I think I am working for that.

Discussions here have benefited my perception and vision of love and peace; which is not a meagre achievement in my opinion.

I am not against anybody; I am just a student of Truth in search for truth.

Regards

 

[abucs]

Hi Valke2!

…So the Books revealed on Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Lao Tzu, Socrates, Confucius, Moses, Jesus, Second Coming 1835-1908 etc, could become the source of love and peace with …

Regards

I don’t know about books revealed on Jesus i would simply say books written about Jesus.

And i don’t know about books being special in themselves, to me they were simply the main medium of historical communication in days past.

As far as any other book you’d have to investigate them individually and see what their claims and evidence are and what they were trying to say. For example, i don’t think there is a book revealed on Buddha but simply an oral tradition tracing back many centuries that was then committed to writing and followed different ethical development from the different schools of Bhuddism.

Many traditions say - i have been enlightened - here listen to this.
Many other traditions say - somebody heavenly talked to me - here listen to this.
Jesus claimed to be God incarnate, fulfilled prophecy, left the example of a gross injustice and rose from the dead. Others wrote about him.

They then went on to found Christian civilization and develop and spread science, transport, communications and medicine all around the globe and found the basis of the modern world.

There are different claims and validations to support those claims.

All are not the same.

 

[planten]

Listen. I’m Jewish. I have no vested interest in the life of Jesus whatsoever. But this has got to be the 10,000th post you made trying to convince christians that their bible is wrong, that the very foundation of their faith is wrong and that God did in fact use a magic trick to deceive everyone (if so, it would have been nice of Him to use the same trick for the tens of thousands of Jews that were crucified before and after Jesus).

** Valke 2, many proof have been given about Jesus being alive when came down from the cross. We Muslims know that the Jews and the Christians will always believe that Jesus was killed on the cross. There is no doubt because the Quran also say that.

The Jews and christians will never stop believing that Jesus died on the cross. Both Jews and Christians have their own motive for that line of thinking. Jews want to prove that they killed Jesus on the cross and that he was not a man of God. The christians need to kill Jesus on the cross for some reason not known to me. They need not believe it to be so.

I have posted here that Some people present at the time of the event of crucifiction had said that Jesus was dead. What else could they say? Could any one there say that he was not dead?

Besides we have the testimony of the Quran and bible with us. We know (as per bibleNT) that Jesus prayed earnestly in the garden before his arrest. It is also in bible that an angel was strengthening him. We take the meaning that angel was supportign him and giving him good news of safety.

The Quran clearly mentions that Allah promised Jesus that he will not die on the cross. Jesus will die a natural death. Then his soul will be raised close to Allah.

And we see that bible is telling that Jesus was seen walking and talking secretly after a few days, with the same body and same wounds. He did not have any new body. He did not appear before his enemies. If he became alive after death,he could become alive again and again. There was no fear. He should have appeared to his staunch enemies to show them his face. That would have been the best. But Jesus did not do anything…

Valke 2 , your argument is very weak. You feel that God did some drama with the people. Surely not. It was the divine plan to save Jesus and He did save him. (in whatever way). That is a miracle for the sake of Jesus. I would refer Valke and others to the incident of the prophet Jonas having been swallowed up by the whale.

He came out alive. Was that also a drama of God? Please be kind. Our arguments are the same every time, even though it may be the 10,000 th time. We have the backing of the bible and Quran and some history with us. It is not a conjecture.**

There are lots of theological issues that are open to debate and can benefit from discussion. This does not seem to be one of them.

It seems to be an important issue, like teh issue of Jesus being a God. It should be discussed in detail to find out the truth.

I can argue that Mohammed was a practicing Jew all his life or that he suffered from hallucinations and back it up with the same kind of reasoning that you rely on to argue that God used a cheap parlor trick to make people think Jesus died.

God planned to thwart the plans of the enemies of Jesus. They (planned) & wanted to kill Jesus on the cross. God did not want that. So God saved Jesus from humilating death on the cross…

There was no trick. The time on the cross was less. It was Friday. Bodies brought down quickly. Pilate also said “has he died so quickly?” Quran says that he was like the dead, almost dead.

I don’t expect you to change your belief on this one. But is there really any point to repeating this argument yet again?

** While a discussion is going on, there will be arguments and counter arguments.**

 

[abucs]

Planten, nothing of what you say is actually written down in any of the New Testament writings - either Gospels or letters.

What’s the point of believing whole heartedly in revelation by God through books Planten, when you end up using your own imagination while reading those same books and reading everything between the lines and then trying to convince everyone your imaginations are obviously correct ???

It’s non sensical.

 

[planten]

Planten, nothing of what you say is actually written down in any of the New Testament writings - either Gospels or letters.

What’s the point of believing whole heartedly in revelation by God through books Planten, when you end up using your own imagination while reading those same books and reading everything between the lines and then trying to convince everyone your imaginations are obviously correct ???

It’s non sensical.

**abucs, I will leave Quran alone. But see the bibleNT.

1. Jesus prayed in the garden beofre his arrest…
2. he told his disciples to keep awake and pray. But they were all found sleeping.
3. Jesus prayed to avoid the cup.
4. An angel was strengthening him.
5. Jesus travelled under cover and did not disclose his identity to every one.
6. he met his friends in Galilee and showed them his wounds.
7. He took some fish and honey and ate it.
8. Jesus had promised to show only one sign to the adultrous nation. That sign was the like of prophet Jonas.
9. He was not bathed (tahara) as per custom of the Jews.
10. He was not properly buried as per custom.

All these things are in the bibleNT. If I read too much between the lines then I am guilty. But should I pass over all the lines blindly or as a blunt person? That would also be very bad. What should I do? Not read the bible at all?**

 

[abucs]

No Planten, the lines you should read, (all of them) - it is what you are insertting between them you should think a bit about.

 

[swariffin]

** swariffin, it is certain that Jesus either died here on earth or he went up to the heavens alive. The possibility of going to heavens is remote. So the next place is only death on earth.

The Quran did not use the word death for Jesus. It rather used the word “Passed away” peacefully. No disrespect for Jesus.

Since he passed away here on earth then he must be buried some where on earth. Your guess can be as good as mine or any one else. And please do not forget the lost sheep of Israel (the Ten tribes of Israelis). You should go after them and find out where they were.

I am sure you will come to the same conclusion that had been drawn by the Ahmadis. It is only research work. God told Hazrat Ahmad that Jesus was not alive. Jesus died peacefully. God did not tell him that his grave is in Sirinagar. Thanks to Allah that the grave (last resting place) of Jesus has been found. It is good for the great man of God i.e. (Jesus).**

You are correct. Jesus died from crucifiction which was on earth, buried in the earthly tomb. However, on the third day, Jesus rose up again. Looking for His deciples and stayed with them after the resurection and ascended to heaven. So, no more tomb was needed.

 

[swariffin]

Discussions here have benefited my perception and vision of love and peace; which is not a meagre achievement in my opinion.

I am not against anybody; I am just a student of Truth in search for truth.

Regards

How can there will be peace if you put your condition among others.

 

[swariffin]

Besides we have the testimony of the Quran and bible with us. We know (as per bibleNT) that Jesus prayed earnestly in the garden before his arrest. It is also in bible that an angel was strengthening him. We take the meaning that angel was supportign him and giving him good news of safety.

What is the message brought by that angel. Please quote from Bible or Quran if you wish. Without one, you are basing your interpretation on assumption or speculation.

The Quran clearly mentions that Allah promised Jesus that he will not die on the cross. Jesus will die a natural death. Then his soul will be raised close to Allah.

And we see that bible is telling that Jesus was seen walking and talking secretly after a few days, with the same body and same wounds. He did not have any new body. He did not appear before his enemies. If he became alive after death,he could become alive again and again. There was no fear. He should have appeared to his staunch enemies to show them his face. That would have been the best. But Jesus did not do anything…

No. After resurrection, Jesus has a new kind of real body still with the wound, but can no longer be limited by time and space.

Valke 2 , your argument is very weak. You feel that God did some drama with the people. Surely not. It was the divine plan to save Jesus and He did save him. (in whatever way). That is a miracle for the sake of Jesus. I would refer Valke and others to the incident of the prophet Jonas having been swallowed up by the whale.

He came out alive. Was that also a drama of God? Please be kind. Our arguments are the same every time, even though it may be the 10,000 th time. We have the backing of the bible and Quran and some history with us. It is not a conjecture.

Although Valke is not a Christian, but he share the same important idea that God will not and will never lie nor deceive.
Where in the bible that Jonas was swallowed by the whale? Show the verse that the bible mentioned “whale”.

It seems to be an important issue, like teh issue of Jesus being a God. It should be discussed in detail to find out the truth.

Yes, it can be explained in detail, but you refused to read.

God planned to thwart the plans of the enemies of Jesus. They (planned) & wanted to kill Jesus on the cross. God did not want that. So God saved Jesus from humilating death on the cross.

Please quote the bible verse which is your basis of interpretation

There was no trick. The time on the cross was less. It was Friday. Bodies brought down quickly. Pilate also said “has he died so quickly?” Quran says that he was like the dead, almost dead.

Jesus was without rest and without food after his capture in Getsemane. Jesus was tortured too prior to crucifiction. He was already a battered man before crucifiction. Jesus was stabbed by a spear to to make sure he was dead. Please show your reasoning of Jesus not being dead. Don’t just merely quote your Quran. Quran was written 567 years after Jesus, while the gospel was written less than 30 years after crucifiction.

 

[djconklin]

while the gospel was written less than 30 years after crucifiction.

Possibly earlier than that. Think of how long it would take to evangelize Jerusalem and Judea. Now the only way to reach the Jews in the Diaspora is to write a Gospel. Most likely Matthew was written first, being written to the Jews, and tradition has it in the Hebrew (or Aramaic?) tongue and Paul quoted from a portion of it in his letter to the Thessalonians (if I remember correctly) and that was written in 52 AD.