Jesus did not die on Cross

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dranzal said:
What if those crazy Catholics are right? I’m only asking out of curiosity.
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Hi
I don’t think that Catholics are crazy. It is just misconceptions - centuries old, which could be removed by grace of GodAllahYHWH.

As for me giving a thought that Catholics might be right; it is one of the reasons that I am posting in a Catholic Discussion Forum. At least **Catholics are free to convert me to Catholicism **if they are right. They stand a good chance.
Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
I don’t think that Catholics are crazy. It is just misconceptions - centuries old, which could be removed by grace of GodAllahYHWH.

As for me giving a thought that Catholics might be right; it is one of the reasons that I am posting in a Catholic Discussion Forum. At least **Catholics are free to convert me to Catholicism **if they are right. They stand a good chance.
Thanks
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My friend, we live in difficult times, times of confusion following centuries of strife between Christians and Muslims. We KNOW that WE will not convert you to Christianity. Only the One True God could do that. But in your search for Truth, you are my brother, and I pray that you will know the peace of God all the days of your life.

Sometimes we say that “God is a gentleman.” By that we mean that most of the time he will not push his way into your life, beat you over the head with his Truth, or force you to do his will. He desires that we come to him in love by our own free will.

Godspeed, my friend.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
I don’t think that Catholics are crazy. It is just misconceptions - centuries old, which could be removed by grace of GodAllahYHWH.

As for me giving a thought that Catholics might be right; it is one of the reasons that I am posting in a Catholic Discussion Forum. At least **Catholics are free to convert me to Catholicism **if they are right. They stand a good chance.
Thanks
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I don’t know paarsurrey, I sense you protest too much about all of this?

My feeling is; that Muslims (and Christians to a certain degree) want to claim Jesus for themselves, and as an unfortunate result seem to deny Him to others. Vanity and pride again. Your claim seems to suggest that Jesus was ignoring the rest of the world (you), so by saying He didn’t die on the cross and went to India completes and justifies your world and makes everything nice for you. What happened to Jesus on the cross wasn’t supposed to be nice, that was the whole point, don’t you get it?

Denying what is difficult and hard to accept: that maybe Jesus died a horrible death on the cross, is a BIG mistake my Muslim friend.

I’m sorry to break this to you, but Jesus didn’t go to India.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
I don’t think that Catholics are crazy. It is just misconceptions - centuries old, which could be removed by grace of GodAllahYHWH.

As for me giving a thought that Catholics might be right; it is one of the reasons that I am posting in a Catholic Discussion Forum. At least **Catholics are free to convert me to Catholicism **if they are right. They stand a good chance.
Thanks
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We are discussing not to convert each other.
but do you really can convert?
I thought muslims that convert to other religion would be killed.
It seems that you cant choose. or can you?
 
jimmy85 said:
We are discussing not to convert each other.
but do you really can convert?
I thought muslims that convert to other religion would be killed.
It seems that you cant choose. or can you?
Click to expand...
Hi
Who could stop me from converting to Catholics or for that matter to JWs? I may have to suffer; but that is the price Muhammad,Jesus,Moses and all other Prophets paid for the truth, I am just following their footsteps as an ordianry and humble man.
Thanks
 
Hi
The PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 adds fruther to his arguments:alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch1.html
"Readers should not be under any misconception: the Cross of the Jews was not like the hangman’s noose of to-day from which deliverance alive is nearly impossible, for the Cross of those days had no rope to be put round the neck of the victim, nor was he subjected to a fall from a wooden plank and allowed to keep hanging; rather, he was just put on the Cross, and his hands and feet were nailed to it; and it was quite possible that if, after crucifying a person and driving nails into him, it was decided – in a day or two – to forgive him and spare his life, he was taken down alive before his bones had been broken, the punishment already undergone being deemed sufficient for him. If it was decided to kill him, he was kept on the Cross at least for three days; water or bread was not allowed to come near him, and he was left in this condition in the sun for three or more days, when his bones were broken and ultimately as a result of this torture he died. But the grace of Almighty God rescued Jesus from this torture which would have ended his life.
Reading the gospel with care will show that Jesus (on whom be peace) did not remain on the Cross for three days; he did not have to suffer hunger or thirst for three days; nor were his bones broken. On the other hand, he remained on the Cross only for two hours, and the grace and mercy of God managed to bring about the crucifixion in the latter part of the day, which was a Friday, only a little time before sunset, the next day being the Sabbath, the feast Fasah of the Jews. According to Jewish custom it was unlawful and a punishable crime to let anyone remain on the Cross on the Sabbath day, or during the night previous to it; Jews, like Muslims, observed the lunar calendar, sunset being regarded as beginning the day. So, on the one hand, there was this circumstance which arose out of earthly causes, and, on the other, Almighty God brought into existence heavenly circumstances, namely, that when it was the sixth hour, there was a severe dust-storm which darkened the earth for three hours.*
This sixth hour was after twelve o’clock, i.e., close to the evening. Now, the Jews were afraid in this utter darkness, lest the night of the Sabbath should overtake them, and lest, having violated the sanctity of the Sabbath, they should deserve to be punished. Therefore, in all haste they took Jesus and the two thieves off their Crosses. In addition to all this, there was another heavenly cause, namely, that when Pilate presided at his court, his wife sent word to him not to have anything to do with that righteous person (i.e., not to attempt to punish him with death), for, she said, she had had a dream that night, which had troubled her very much.**Thanks
continued
 
conitnued from the previous post.

“So, this angel, whom the wife of Pilate saw in her dream, would assure us and all fair-minded people, with certainty, that God had never intended that Jesus should die on the Cross. From the day of the creation of this world, never has it occurred that God should suggest to a person in a dream that a particular thing would happen in a certain way, and still that thing should fail to happen. For example, the gospel of Matthew says that an angel of the Lord came to Joseph in a dream and said, ‘Arise and take the young child and the mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him’.***
Now, can anyone say that Jesus could be killed in Egypt? Similarly the dream which the wife of Pilate dreamt was a part of God’s design, and it could never be that this design should fail in its object; and just as the possibility of Jesus being put to death during the Egyptian journey was against a specific promise of God, so here it is unthinkable that the angel of Almighty God should appear to the wife of Pilate and should direct her to say that if Jesus died on the Cross it would not be a happy thing for her, and yet the angel’s appearance should go in vain, and Jesus should be allowed to suffer death on the Cross. Is there any example of this in the world? None. The pure conscience of all good men, when informed of the dream of Pilate’s wife, will no doubt testify that it was a fact that the purpose of that dream was to lay the foundation for the rescue of Jesus. It is of course open to everybody to deny an out-and-out truth; out of prejudice born of his creed, he may refuse to accept it, but fairness would oblige us to believe that the dream of Pilate’s wife is a piece of weighty evidence in support of Jesus’ escape from the Cross.
The first in rank among the gospels, i.e., Matthew, has recorded this evidence. Although, therefore, the powerful evidence which I shall set out in this book invalidates the divinity of Jesus and the doctrine of Atonement, yet honesty and love of fairness require us not to be partial to a communal or customary creed on a question of fact. From the day of the creation of man up till to-day the limited intellect of man has invested a thousand things with Divinity and Godhead, so much so that even cats and snakes have been worshipped; nevertheless wise people, through heaven’s help, have continued to be saved from the evil of such polytheistic beliefs.” Unquote
  • Mark 15:33.
    **Math. 2:19.
    ***Matthew 2:13.
    Thanks
 
Hi
The PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 adds fruther to his arguments:alislam.org/library/books…india/ch1.html

Among the testimonies of the Bible in support of Jesus’ escape from death on the Cross is his journey to a far-off place, on which he started after coming out of the tomb. On the morning of Sunday he first met Mary Magdalene, who at once informed the disciples that Jesus was alive, but they did not believe it. Then he was seen by two of the disciples when they were going out to the countryside; and last of all he appeared to the eleven when they were at their meal and censured them for their callousness and lack of faith.9 When two disciples of Jesus were going towards the hamlet called Emmaus which was at a distance of 3.75 miles from Jerusalem, Jesus met them; and when they were near that hamlet, Jesus went forward to part company with them, but they did not allow him to go, saying that that night they would be together.
He then dined with them, and all of them, along with Jesus, spent the night at the village named Emmaus.10 Now, to say that Jesus did all this with a spiritual body (which is supposed to be the nature of the body after death), which only the physical body was capable of doing, as, for example, eating and drinking, and sleeping, and making a long journey to Galilee which was at a distance of seventy miles from Jerusalem, is saying something impossible and quite against reason. In spite of the fact that on account of individual bias the accounts of the gospels have differed, the texts as they are, nevertheless, clearly show that Jesus met his disciples in the ordinary mortal human body, and made a long journey on foot to Galilee; showed his wounds to the disciples, dined with them at night, and slept in their company.
Now, here one has to consider whether, after acquiring an eternal spiritual body, i.e., after gaining that immortal body which entitled him, having been freed from the necessity of eating and drinking, to sit on the right hand of God and to be free of all wounds, and pain, and infirmities, it still suffered from one defect, although it had the glory of the Eternal and Ever-Existing God – the defect, namely, that his body had on it fresh wounds of the Cross and the nails, which were bleeding and were very painful and for which an ointment had been prepared, and even after acquiring a glorious and an immortal body, eternally sound, faultless, perfect, and unchangeable, that same body continued to suffer from defects of many kinds:
Jesus himself showed to his disciples the flesh and bones of his body, and again, not only this, but there were also the pangs of hunger and thirst – necessities of the mortal body; otherwise, where was the need for him during the journey to Galilee to do such useless things as eating and drinking water, resting, and sleeping? Undoubtedly, hunger and thirst, in this world, are painful for the mortal body, which may even prove fatal if they become extreme. So there is no doubt that Jesus did not die on the Cross, nor did he acquire a new spiritual body: rather, he was in a state of death-like swoon. Through the grace of God, it so happened that the tomb in which he was placed was not like the tombs of this country; it was an airy apartment. In those days the custom of the Jews was to make the tomb airy like a commodious chamber, leaving an opening in it. Such tombs were kept ready; and as the occasion required, dead bodies were interred in them.
The gospels bear clear testimony to this: Luke says, ‘Now upon the first day of the week very early in the morning * they * came unto the sepulcher bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulcher [just consider this!] and they entered in and found not the body of the Lord Jesus’.11 Now consider for a moment the words, ‘They entered in.’ It is evident that a man can only enter a tomb which is like a room and has an opening. I shall state in this book, at the proper place, that the tomb of Jesus (peace be on him) which has recently been discovered in Sirinagar, in Kashmir, has an opening like this tomb. This is a fine point which when pondered over will lead investigators in this field to a great and important conclusion.
9. Matthew 16:9-14.
10. Luke 24:13-31.
11. Luke 24:1-3.
Thanks**
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
The PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 adds fruther to his arguments:alislam.org/library/books…india/ch1.html

Among the testimonies of the Bible in support of Jesus’ escape from death on the Cross is his journey to a far-off place, on which he started after coming out of the tomb. On the morning of Sunday he first met Mary Magdalene, who at once informed the disciples that Jesus was alive, but they did not believe it. Then he was seen by two of the disciples when they were going out to the countryside; and last of all he appeared to the eleven when they were at their meal and censured them for their callousness and lack of faith.9 When two disciples of Jesus were going towards the hamlet called Emmaus which was at a distance of 3.75 miles from Jerusalem, Jesus met them; and when they were near that hamlet, Jesus went forward to part company with them, but they did not allow him to go, saying that that night they would be together.
He then dined with them, and all of them, along with Jesus, spent the night at the village named Emmaus.10 Now, to say that Jesus did all this with a spiritual body (which is supposed to be the nature of the body after death), which only the physical body was capable of doing, as, for example, eating and drinking, and sleeping, and making a long journey to Galilee which was at a distance of seventy miles from Jerusalem, is saying something impossible and quite against reason. In spite of the fact that on account of individual bias the accounts of the gospels have differed, the texts as they are, nevertheless, clearly show that Jesus met his disciples in the ordinary mortal human body, and made a long journey on foot to Galilee; showed his wounds to the disciples, dined with them at night, and slept in their company.
Now, here one has to consider whether, after acquiring an eternal spiritual body, i.e., after gaining that immortal body which entitled him, having been freed from the necessity of eating and drinking, to sit on the right hand of God and to be free of all wounds, and pain, and infirmities, it still suffered from one defect, although it had the glory of the Eternal and Ever-Existing God – the defect, namely, that his body had on it fresh wounds of the Cross and the nails, which were bleeding and were very painful and for which an ointment had been prepared, and even after acquiring a glorious and an immortal body, eternally sound, faultless, perfect, and unchangeable, that same body continued to suffer from defects of many kinds:
Jesus himself showed to his disciples the flesh and bones of his body, and again, not only this, but there were also the pangs of hunger and thirst – necessities of the mortal body; otherwise, where was the need for him during the journey to Galilee to do such useless things as eating and drinking water, resting, and sleeping? Undoubtedly, hunger and thirst, in this world, are painful for the mortal body, which may even prove fatal if they become extreme. So there is no doubt that Jesus did not die on the Cross, nor did he acquire a new spiritual body: rather, he was in a state of death-like swoon. Through the grace of God, it so happened that the tomb in which he was placed was not like the tombs of this country; it was an airy apartment. In those days the custom of the Jews was to make the tomb airy like a commodious chamber, leaving an opening in it. Such tombs were kept ready; and as the occasion required, dead bodies were interred in them.
The gospels bear clear testimony to this: Luke says, ‘Now upon the first day of the week very early in the morning * they * came unto the sepulcher bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulcher [just consider this!] and they entered in and found not the body of the Lord Jesus’.11 Now consider for a moment the words, ‘They entered in.’ It is evident that a man can only enter a tomb which is like a room and has an opening. I shall state in this book, at the proper place, that the tomb of Jesus (peace be on him) which has recently been discovered in Sirinagar, in Kashmir, has an opening like this tomb. This is a fine point which when pondered over will lead investigators in this field to a great and important conclusion.
9. Matthew 16:9-14.
10. Luke 24:13-31.
11. Luke 24:1-3.
Thanks**

Paasurrey, the pink… :hypno:
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Hi
The PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 continues his arguments, further: alislam.org/library/books…india/ch1.html
“Among the testimonies of the gospels are the words of Pilate, recorded by St. Mark: 'And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, an honourable counsellor, who also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead.'12 This would show that at the time of the crucifixion itself a doubt had been raised whether Jesus had in fact died and the doubt emanated from no less a person than one who knew from experience how long it took a person to die on the Cross.
Among the testimonies of the gospels is the verse, ‘The Jews, therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the Cross on the Sabbath day (for that Sabbath day was an high day), besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers and broke the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was dead already they broke not his legs: but one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water’.13 These verses clearly show that in order to put an end to the life of a crucified person it was the practice in those days to keep him on the Cross for several days, and then to break his legs, but the legs of Jesus were purposely not broken, and he was taken down alive from the Cross, like the two thieves. That was the reason why there came out blood when his side was pierced. The blood however, conceals after death. And, here, it appears also that all this was the result of a conspiracy. Pilate was a God-fearing and a good-hearted man; he could not openly show favour to Jesus for fear of the Caesar; for the Jews had declared Jesus a rebel. All the same, Pilate was lucky to have seen Jesus but the Caesar was not so fortunate; the former not only saw Jesus but also showed him a great favour – he did not desire that Jesus should suffer crucifixion.
The gospels point out clearly that Pilate had several times resolved to let Jesus go, but the Jews said that if he would let him go he would be disloyal to Caesar; they also said that Jesus was a rebel who wished to be king.14 And the dream which Pilate’s wife had, further prompted the freeing of Jesus; otherwise, Pilate and his wife themselves would have been exposed to disaster. But, as the Jews were a mischievous people, ready even secretly to inform the Caesar of Pilate’s action, Pilate made use of a device to rescue Jesus: first, he fixed Friday for the crucifixion, only a few hours before sunset, and the night of the Great Sabbath was about to fall. Pilate knew very well that the Jews, in accordance with the commandments of their law, could keep Jesus on the Cross only till the evening, and after that it was unlawful to keep anybody on the Cross. Accordingly, it all happened in this very manner; and Jesus was taken down from the Cross before it was evening. It is improbable that the thieves who were crucified at the same time as Jesus should have remained alive, but that Jesus should have died within two hours. It was an excuse made up to save Jesus from the process of leg breaking.
The fact that both the thieves were taken down alive from the Cross is sufficient evidence for an intelligent person: and taking down the victims alive from the Cross was the usual custom; they died only when their bones were broken, or when they were allowed to remain on the Cross without food or drink for some days. But Jesus had none of these experiences – he neither remained for any number of days on the Cross, nor were his bones broken; and by making it appear that Jesus had died the Jews were made to forget the whole matter. The thieves, however, were killed immediately – their bones were broken. It would have been different if it had been said in regard to one of the thieves also that he was dead and that there was no need to break his bones. And a man named Joseph – an honoured friend of Pilate and a notable person in the locality and a secret disciple of Jesus – presented himself at the right time. I suspect that he too was called at Pilate’s suggestion. And Jesus having been taken for dead, his body was made over to him, for he was a big man with whom the Jews could have no quarrel.”
12. Mark 15:42-44.
13. John 19:31-34.
14. John 19:12.

Thanks
 
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guanophore:
Hi
I think the appropriate title of the thread should have been> Jesus was not killed on Cross by the Jews<.
The Jews Clergy were not after Jesus that he had proclaimed deity for himself, for that there is no punishment in this world in the OTBible, to my knowledge, please correct me if I am wrong. Please read the following passage:
“If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, ‘Let us follow other gods’ (gods you have not known) ‘and let us worship them,’ you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you” (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NIV).
The Jews wanted to prove Jesus a false Prophet and that is the reason they wanted to kill him on Cross, a death of humiliation as well.
Jesus’ response that we infer from his showing the adulterous Jews the **Sign of Jonah **was saying that he was a true Prophet Son of Man/Woman they won’t succeed in killing him on Cross. And that is what I believe.
Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Jesus’ response that we infer from his showing the adulterous Jews the **Sign of Jonah **was saying that he was a true Prophet Son of Man/Woman they won’t succeed in killing him on CrossAnd that is what I believe.
Thanks
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Paarsurrey, I respect what you believe, but the truth is the opposite of what you believe. One thing that Satan want us to deny is the death and resurrection of Jesus. They are defeated, and they are wicked enough to make people never think about Jesus’ resurrection.
 
water said:
One thing that Satan want us to deny is the death and resurrection of Jesus.
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Hi
Well I also respect your faith, but unless you convince me to Catholic, I would be thinking freely.
I never denied that Jesus did die but he was not killed on Cross. Since Jesus was a true Prophet of God so he died in India in a very respectful and peaceful manner and still buried there. I don’t deny Jesus’ death.
Jesus and Mary were pious persons, so after their death in India, they both are resting in heaven like Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Cyrus, Jonah and Muhammad.
JesusYeshuaIssa himself opted to show sign of Jonah, as Jonah died and is resting in heaven, so must Jesus, he could never be killed by Jews on the Cross, if that happens then Jesus becomes unlike Jonah.
Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
Well I also respect your faith, but unless you convince me to Catholic, I would be thinking freely.
I never denied that Jesus did die but he was not killed on Cross. Since Jesus was a true Prophet of God so he died in India in a very respectful and peaceful manner and still buried there. I don’t deny Jesus’ death.
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Sure, this is a discussion forum and we are here to discuss what each believes. 🙂 We believe Jesus is God Himself. I recently saw a thread about Jesus died on the Cross, and now I read that you said the same thing. I was wondering where you’ve got the information from?
 
According to Jewish custom it was unlawful and a punishable crime to let anyone remain on the Cross on the Sabbath day, or during the night previous to it; Jews, like Muslims, observed the lunar calendar, sunset being regarded as beginning the day.
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The only problem with this is that the Romans crucified Jesus, not the Jews. Though the jews did request it of the Romans.And they did not break Jesus’ legs out of mercy, but because he was already dead. As you would say, a careful reading of the gospel shows this:
John 19 31-35
Now since it was preparation day, in order that the bodies might not remain on the cross on the sabbath, for the sabbath day of that week was a solemn one, the Jews asked Pilate that their legs be broken and they be taken down.
So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and then of the other one who was crucified with Jesus.
But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs,
but one soldier thrust his lance into his side, and immediately blood and water flowed out.
An eyewitness has testified, and his testimony is true; he knows that he is speaking the truth, so that you also may (come to) believe.
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water said:
now I read that you said the same thing. I was wondering where you’ve got the information from?
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Hi
I am not the pioneer in this subject. In fact it was Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908. When GodAllahYHWH chose him as such, he believed as common Muslims believe that Jesus went to skies, then God unfolded this to him, and CatholicGod and MuslimGod is All-Knowing, and we are just His servants.
The Word of GodAllahYHWH is and had been the first/authentic and primary source of human knowledge whether revealed on Moses/Jesus/Muhammad or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad( the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi); it is of itself complete and without doubt and requires no external witnessing.
Thanks
 
Hi
The PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 continues his arguments: alislam.org/library/books…india/ch1.html

"The thieves, however, were killed immediately – their bones were broken. It would have been different if it had been said in regard to one of the thieves also that he was dead and that there was no need to break his bones. And a man named Joseph – an honoured friend of Pilate and a notable person in the locality and a secret disciple of Jesus – presented himself at the right time. I suspect that he too was called at Pilate’s suggestion. And Jesus having been taken for dead, his body was made over to him, for he was a big man with whom the Jews could have no quarrel. Arriving at the scene he carried away Jesus as if he were a corpse. Actually he was in a state of swoon.
There was a spacious house near by, built according to the custom of the time like a tomb, with an opening in it, and situated at a place with which the Jews had nothing to do. Jesus was placed in this house at the suggestion of Pilate. These events happened in the fourteenth century after the death of Moses; and, Jesus was the Restorer of the Israelite law in the fourteenth century. Though the Jews were looking out in this fourteenth century for the Promised Messiah, and the prophecies of the previous prophets also pointed to this very time for his appearance, yet, alas! the unworthy priests of the Jews did not recognise the time and the season, and rejected the Promised Messiah as an impostor. Not only this; they declared him a Kafir, called him an unbeliever, pronounced the decree of death against him, and dragged him into court.
This showed that God had assembled in the fourteenth century the influences which made the people’s hearts callous, the priests worldly, blind, and enemies of truth. Yet, a comparison between the fourteenth century after Moses and the fourteenth after the ‘like’ of Moses – our Holy Prophet (may peace and the blessings of God be upon him) – will show, first that in each of these centuries there was a man who claimed to be the promised Messiah; a true claim resting on the authority of God. Then, it would also appear that the priests of the people declared both of them Kafirs, and called them unbelievers and Dajjals, and pronounced Fatwas of death against them, and dragged them into court – a Roman court in one case and a British in the other. Ultimately, both were rescued; and the priests – the Jews and the Muslims – were foiled in their designs.
God had intended to raise great communities for both the Messiahs, and to defeat the designs of their enemies, In short, the fourteenth century after Moses and the fourteenth century after our Holy Prophet (peace and the blessings of God be upon him) are for their respective Messiahs trying, as well as – in the long run – blessed. "
Unquote
Thanks
 
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