Jesus Did Not Die

[Robert_in_SD]

lahokamal:

Those who maintain that Jesus (pbuh) was killed or is dead are making a serious mistake. One purpose in writing this book is to explain why this is so. In the following pages, we will examine the Qur’anic verses and the hadith of Prophet Muhammad (may God bless him and grant him peace) that reveal the truth of this issue, which has confused so many people over the centuries.

Read for yoursuelf;

harunyahya.com/books/faith/did_not_die/jesus_did_not_die_01.php

You are entitled to your opinion. I respectfully disagree.

 

[ashab_al-yameen]

Waiting for an answer concerning my post.

 

[JimG]

John begins his gospel:

In the beginning was the Word,
And the Word was with God,
And the Word was God.

 

[ashab_al-yameen]

?

 

[scylla]

Jim, I don’t think that post made sense to our brother here.

To understand the answer here is a little on the Catholic understanding of the Trinity.

The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”

So He is the Son of God as described above.

Peace
Scylla

 

[ashab_al-yameen]

I asked who “Jesus the Son of the Father” was, not who Jesus was the Son of.

Was “Jesus the Son of the Father” Jesus Christ?

 

[Lance]

Faith101:

no where in the Bible is there CLEAR verse indicating that Jesus Christ was god/son of god. If this is the basic foundation of your belief, than it would only make sense for their to be ONE verse that has Jesus telling someone “I am god/son of god, worship me”. On the contrary, tte Bible is full of verses indicating Jesus’s prophethood. I dont want to argue this point…others have pointed out verses that they say indicate his divinity, all of which can be interpreted in a more than one way.

You have the right to believe in whatever you want. But Muslims believe that Jesus and Mohamed peace be upon them both…were messengers from God…sent to relay the message: There is only one God, worship Him. Accept it or deny it, you’ll be asked to explain yourself at the end (so will all of us, ofource).

I choose to believe Mohamed was a false prophet. As you say, in America I can believe what ever I want, which is not true in many Islamic states.

 

[JimG]

ashab al-yameen:

I asked who “Jesus the Son of the Father” was, not who Jesus was the Son of.

Was “Jesus the Son of the Father” Jesus Christ?

Now you’ve got me puzzled. That sounds like a tautology.

Yes, Jesus the Son of the Father was Jesus Christ.

St. John, in his old age, and having had a lot of time to think about it, calls him the “Word” and says the He is God.

 

[r.gonzales]

what i think ashab al-yameen is getting at are these biblical “facts” that support islamic belief that jesus, son of mary, was not crucified.

matthew 27:15-26.

15It was an old custom during the Feast for the governor to pardon a single prisoner named by the crowd. 16At the time, they had the infamous Jesus Barabbas in prison. 17With the crowd before him, Pilate said, “Which prisoner do you want me to pardon: Jesus Barabbas, or Jesus the so-called Christ?” 18He knew it was through sheer spite that they had turned Jesus over to him.

19While court was still in session, Pilate's wife sent him a message: "Don't get mixed up in judging this noble man. I've just been through a long and troubled night because of a dream about him."

20Meanwhile, the high priests and religious leaders had talked the crowd into asking for the pardon of Barabbas and the execution of Jesus.

21The governor asked, "Which of the two do you want me to pardon?"

They said, "Barabbas!"

22"Then what do I do with Jesus, the so-called Christ?"

They all shouted, "Nail him to a cross!"

23He objected, "But for what crime?"

But they yelled all the louder, "Nail him to a cross!"

24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere and that a riot was imminent, he took a basin of water and washed his hands in full sight of the crowd, saying, "I'm washing my hands of responsibility for this man's death. From now on, it's in your hands. You're judge and jury."

25The crowd answered, "We'll take the blame, we and our children after us."

26Then he pardoned Barabbas. But he had Jesus whipped, and then handed over for crucifixion.

• two men named jesus, both in prison at the same time. one called jesus, the messiah/christ and the other jesus barabbas.
• it is said that barabbas literally means “son of father”, which could be understood to mean “son of God” since “the father” is a common reference to God. the argument is that barabbas is not his name, but rather a title, similar to the title the messiah/christ.
• so, now you have two men named jesus, with no real clear cut indication as to which one is which, jesus the son of God or jesus the messiah, who is supposed to be one in the same… with this doubt exists the possibility that the “wrong” jesus was released and that jesus, the son of mary, was that “wrong” jesus, while the other took his place on the cross.

Allah says in the Quran, “and their statement, ‘surely, we killed the messiah, jesus son of mary, Allah’s messenger.’ - and they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him. however, it was made to resemble it for them. and surely, those who differ about it are certainly in doubt about it. they do not have any knowledge of it except the following of speculation. and they did not kill him with certainty. rather, Allah raised him to Him. and Allah is Mighty, Wise.” (4:157-158).

 

[JimG]

So you are saying that Mary and all Jesus followers did not recognize that it was really Barabbas that had been crucified? And that the entire crucifixion accounts of all the gospels are a fiction?

This is really far-fetched, and historically unsupportable. I would refer you even to secular historians, such as Paula Fredriksen.

This thesis is about as historically supportable as the work of Dan Brown.

(The author of *The Passoveer Plot * also tried to prove that Jesus didn’t die, but even he did not try for a case of mistaken identity.)

 

[Ghosty]

I also want to point out that Jesus wasn’t exactly an uncommon name; it’s Joshua. There were a LOT of people running around named Joshua.

 

[hawk]

What a discussion the hawks have had!!!

MARANATHA!

It is our consensus, that anything that denies the death of Christ, aims to destroy the very foundation of goodness, ie. the death of Christ.

In destroying this foundation, it shows itself to be the work of the evil one.

The outward manifestations of piety account for nothing without the foundation of the death of Christ.

Too it is in character with the evil one, for it aims to decieve by advocating good, whilst destroying the foundation of all that is good.

This alone, and no other reason is enough for us to reject the Quran.

Remember Christ says himself, that He has come to save us, by His death.

These are His own words.

In the matter of islam, the religion, the Church has erred in the catechism.

 

[ashab_al-yameen]

JimG:

Now you’ve got me puzzled. That sounds like a tautology.

Yes, Jesus the Son of the Father was Jesus Christ.

St. John, in his old age, and having had a lot of time to think about it, calls him the “Word” and says the He is God.

If Jesus the Son of the Father was Jesus Christ, then your Bible says that Jesus Christ was not crucified.

 

[JimG]

ashab al-yameen:

If Jesus the Son of the Father was Jesus Christ, then your Bible says that Jesus Christ was not crucified.

I think that proposition is entirely unsupportable both biblically and historically. Please see my post no. 50.

 

[JimG]

Near the cross of Jesus, there stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. Seeing his mother there with the disciple whom he loved, Jesus said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold your son.’ In turn he said to the disciple, ‘Behold your mother.’ From that hour onward, the disciple took her into his care.
(Gospel of John: 19:25-27)

Did Mary not know her own son? Did the disciples not know their own teacher? Were they standing at the foot of the cross of a stranger?

 

[ashab_al-yameen]

Seems like some people did not word things out right.

Let me straighten things out:

First, the Biblical verses I will use:

Matthew 27:

20But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed.

21"Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" asked the governor.
  "Barabbas," they answered.

22"What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked.
  They all answered, "Crucify him!"

23"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.
  But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"

24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"

25All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"

26Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

Mark 15:
6Now it was the custom at the Feast to release a prisoner whom the people requested. 7A man called Barabbas was in prison with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the uprising. 8The crowd came up and asked Pilate to do for them what he usually did.

9"Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?" asked Pilate, 10knowing it was out of envy that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him. 11But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have Pilate release Barabbas instead.

12"What shall I do, then, with the one you call the king of the Jews?" Pilate asked them.

13"Crucify him!" they shouted.

14"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.
  But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"

15Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

Luke 23:

13Pilate called together the chief priests, the rulers and the people, 14and said to them, “You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him. 15Neither has Herod, for he sent him back to us; as you can see, he has done nothing to deserve death. 16Therefore, I will punish him and then release him.”[c]

18With one voice they cried out, "Away with this man! Release Barabbas to us!" 19(Barabbas had been thrown into prison for an insurrection in the city, and for murder.)

20Wanting to release Jesus, Pilate appealed to them again. 21But they kept shouting, "Crucify him! Crucify him!"

22For the third time he spoke to them: "Why? What crime has this man committed? I have found in him no grounds for the death penalty. Therefore I will have him punished and then release him."

23But with loud shouts they insistently demanded that he be crucified, and their shouts prevailed. 24So Pilate decided to grant their demand.

John 18:
39But it is your custom for me to release to you one prisoner at the time of the Passover. Do you want me to release ‘the king of the Jews’?"

40They shouted back, "No, not him! Give us Barabbas!" Now Barabbas had taken part in a rebellion.

 

[ashab_al-yameen]

Now, we see here that Jesus Barabbas was released, and that Jesus “which is called Christ” was released.

This info, however, is not straightforward.

“Why?”

Because Barabbas is NOT A LAST NAME, but an identifier.

The prefix “Bar” means “Son of”

One example in which “Bar” was in one version of the Bible kept without translation, and later translated:

Matthew 16:17 (King James Version):

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:17 (New Revised Standard Version):

And Jesus answered him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.

However, the New Revised Standard Version stopped short from translating “Barabbas” in Matthew 27.

Translating “Barabbas” to “son of Abbas” is not enough, because “Abbas” is not a name either. “Abbas” is the Aramaic for “Father”. With this in mind, if Matthew 27:26 were to be fully translated (as the translators of the Bible should have done), then it would read as follows:

Mat 27:26 	Then released he [Jesus] the Son of the Father unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered [him] to be crucified.

As most of us know, the word Christ comes from the Greek “Christos”, which is the translation of the Hebrew word “Mashiah”, meaning “anointed”. Which Israelites were anointed?

Before we move on, let us take a look at Matthew 27:11-14 (NRSV)

11 Now Jesus stood before the governor; and the governor asked him, ‘Are you the King of the Jews?’ Jesus said, ‘You say so.’ 12But when he was accused by the chief priests and elders, he did not answer. 13Then Pilate said to him, ‘Do you not hear how many accusations they make against you?’ 14But he gave him no answer, not even to a single charge, so that the governor was greatly amazed.

These verses suggest that Pilate knew that there was some sort of “King of the Jews”

Now, back to the matter at hand. Those who were anointed in Israel are mostly the priests and kings of the Jews.

Pilate would not care much about internal disputes among the Jewish community concerning a man who does no harm except that he preaches what some Jews dislike. He would, however, try to stop any Jewish King from inciting a revolt against Rome. Therefore,
Jesus “which is called Christ” => Jesus “which is called Christos” => Jesus “which is called Mashiah” => Jesus “which is called anointed” may have been an inserructionist who laid claim to being the king of Israel, and according to “The Cross & The Crescent” by Jerald F Dirks, “there were many such people during the first century CE.”

 

[LuigiColetta]

Dear brother ashab al-yameen,

I usually try to be quite peaceful in my comments, but your analogy is just funny, even if you are trying to be serious. I am assuming you are a muslim, and I will tell you that it is better for you to stick with the notion that in the Qur’an through Gabriel to Muhammed which later was written down in the Qur’an it states that Jesus didn’t die on the cross than to just state what you have stated for the whole world to read.
Hmm…I think I need brother Shenango to jump in on this one to shine light on what you are doing by posting this nonsense claim.

I would think that if you had said that God switched Jesus of the christians with Jesus Barabbas, so that when Pilate released Barabbas he was really releasing the real Jesus of the christian, then I would think of this claim not less than God switching Jesus with Judas on the cross…is anyonw following my tongue twister?

I truly give you the peace the Jesus gives!!!
Your brother,
Luigi

 

[Booklover]

Faith101:

Why was Jesus peace be upon him very cautious in the begining to limit his ministry to only the children of Israel. Why did he tell his disciples to preach ONLY to the children of Israel? If his message was for all of mankind, why would he limit himself early on and then later say go and preach to everyone?

He preached to the Jews first because they were the Chosen People.

 

[ashab_al-yameen]

There was ABSOLUTELY NO SWITCHING! Understand my post before jumping to conclusions.

Yes, I am a Muslim.