Jesus Did Not Die

[Nan_S]

"… they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him. however, it was made to resemble it for them. and surely, those who differ about it are certainly in doubt about it. they do not have any knowledge of it except the following of speculation. and they did not kill him with certainty. rather, Allah raised him to Him. and Allah is Mighty, Wise." (4:157-158).

“Originator of the heavens and the earth, and when He declared a matter then certainly He says to it, ‘Be.’ then it happens.” (2:117)

“and if Allah willed, certainly He could cause their hearing and their sights to leave. surely, Allah is capable of everything.” (2:20).

In other words, Jesus Christ Himself was a liar when He showed the disciples His crucifixion wounds to prove that he was the one crucified and resurrected.

And the writers of the New Testament were liars when they said that the Jesus whom they had followed for three years was the one crucified and resurrected.

And that all of the other writers who were not included in the New Testament, but who received the word from the eyewitnesses, were fools for believing the eyewitnesses and liars for propagating their testimony.

Please understand when I take offense to your proclaiming that the core of my religion is lies. Especially when the only evidence you have is the testimony of a single man who received visions hundreds of years later, visions that were completely unverified on this issue by any historical record.

 

[r.gonzales]

JimG:

The Quran—which was revealed over the course of years—is not consistent on this, of course. In an early Quranic revelation, God tells Muhammad, “If thou wert in doubt as to what we have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading The Book [the Bible].” Only later does the Quran condemn the Bible as being filled with error.

please see posts #33, 34 & 39 of this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=795092, particularly what my reply to reuben j at the end of post #33.

as for this verse in question, it’s explanation taken from Quranic exegesis is:

qataadah bin di’aamah said, “it reached us that Allah’s messenger, may Allah send greetings and peace upon him, said: i do not doubt, nor do i ask.”
ibn abbaas (prophet muhammad’s paternal cousin), sa’eed bin jubair and al-hasan al-basree said similar. and this contains establishement for the [muslim] nation and notification for them that their prophet’s description, may Allah send greetings and peace upon him, is present in the previous books that are in the hands of the people of the book (i.e., the jews and the christians). just as He, exalted is He, said, “those who follow the illiterate prophet who they find written with them in the torah and the injeel…” (6:157)

source: qurancomplex.org/Quran/tafseer/Tafseer.asp?l=arb&t=katheer&nSora=10&nAya=94#10_94

you should also read what is mentioned here: madinahstore.com/mercy/1.htm#did, about producing a single original manuscript of your scriptures. if you can’t, then how can you really support your claims of your scriptures being uncorrupted?
Nan S:

In other words, Jesus Christ Himself was a liar when He showed the disciples His crucifixion wounds to prove that he was the one crucified and resurrected.

we don’t even consider these accounts to be authentic, so how is jesus a liar? we don’t believe that he gave any indication that he was divine or part of any trinity or anything of the sort, we believe that he told the children of israel to worship Allah alone, just as is mentioned in the Quran.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam Writer;

I have noticed as soon as the good arguments begin, our Muslim brothers and sisters seem to dwindle and disappear entirely only to resurface again elsewhere on the forums

May be because they care for you and don’t want to disturb your beliefs or offend you.

I am really interested in what accomplishments in the fields of culture; science, etc. have been created by members of an Islamic society since the 12th century? Where is your Bach or Beethoven…your Jonas Salk? What do you consider your greatest contributions to the world in terms of culture or scientific breakthroughs? If Islam is the answer, what in the world was the question?

Do you have any credit to claim by what others accomplished in your country?
Does Islam teach not to look, search, study, and investigate? If the answer is yes, then you can accuse Islam for being the culprit. Study Islam and you will find the answers.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Will_Pick]

lahokamal:

Those who maintain that Jesus (pbuh) was killed or is dead are making a serious mistake. One purpose in writing this book is to explain why this is so. In the following pages, we will examine the Qur’anic verses and the hadith of Prophet Muhammad (may God bless him and grant him peace) that reveal the truth of this issue, which has confused so many people over the centuries.

Read for yoursuelf;

if you believe this,i have a bridge in fla. to sell

 

[ashab_al-yameen]

JimG:

Yes, it could just be a “popular etymology” and also an incorrect etymology. But it doesn’t really matter. Many names have such etymological derivations; it doesn’t prove that the word was not actually the persons’ name.

In any case, the gospel accounts clearly indicate that there were two individuals involved. One was crucifed. One was not. There is not a whit of evidence to demonstrate the Jesus of Nazareth was not crucified.

I asked if “Jesus the Son of the Father” was Jesus Christ. On of you said yes. Then when I posted the fact that Barabbas = the Son of the Father, and that Jesus Barabbas was not crucified, you tell me that “Jesus the Son of the Father” was crucified.

In case you are wondering, the evidence I used for my statements in the post I posted all come from “The Cross & The Crescent” by Jerald F. Dirks, a former ordained minister in the United Methodist Church and a graduate of Harvard Divinity School, from which he obtained his B.A. and M degrees.

Sorry for being late in replying. I did not come on the computer for 2 days.

 

[Ghosty]

ashab al-yameen:

I asked if “Jesus the Son of the Father” was Jesus Christ. On of you said yes. Then when I posted the fact that Barabbas = the Son of the Father, and that Jesus Barabbas was not crucified, you tell me that “Jesus the Son of the Father” was crucified.

In case you are wondering, the evidence I used for my statements in the post I posted all come from “The Cross & The Crescent” by Jerald F. Dirks, a former ordained minister in the United Methodist Church and a graduate of Harvard Divinity School, from which he obtained his B.A. and M degrees.

Sorry for being late in replying. I did not come on the computer for 2 days.

That’s still just word play with no substance. If Barabbas was the same guy as Jesus, the apostles who wrote the Gospels would have mentioned it. If God was just pulling one over on the crowd, then the apostles wouldn’t have noticed any significance in the name Barabbas and taken pains to record it.

Regardless, there’s no indication that Bar-Abbas was meant as “son of the father” in any literal sense, as abba could have many meanings in Hebrew/Aramaic, from teacher to ruler. Barabbas could have simply been the son of a very prominent rabbi.

 

[JimG]

ashab al-yameen:

I asked if “Jesus the Son of the Father” was Jesus Christ. On of you said yes. Then when I posted the fact that Barabbas = the Son of the Father, and that Jesus Barabbas was not crucified, you tell me that “Jesus the Son of the Father” was crucified.

Yes, of course this is just wordplay. When you asked if Jesus was son of the Father, any Christian would take the meaning “son of the Father” to be: son of God the Father, i.e., First Person of the Trinity.

What your question really meant, though you did not say it at first is: Was Jesus really Barabbas, since the name Barabbas means “son of the father.” Mere wordplay.

You do not accept the truth of the Gospels either as history or revelation, yet you wish to use this one name etymology to try to disprove that Jesus was crucified.

 

[ashab_al-yameen]

Then why didn’t the translators translate “Barabbas” just as they translated “Barjona”?

 

[MommaKat]

Please sir don’t use Protestant scholars for all of your information. The mainline Prostestant demoninations have been secularized to a point that they are hardly reconizable christian. They are also religion that have come out of heresy in the past. At this point in time there are over 30,000 different Protestant demonimations in the United States alone and new ones being formed daily. This is what happens when you detact yourself from the Rock (chair of Peter) you drift futher and futher away from the truth.
Your prophet Mohammed was influenced by just such heretical Christian in his time. His wifes brother was a Christian who was a nostrian.
Translation have been difficult. The English language has words for cousins and aunts. Aramic and Hebrew do not. That is only one example. There is constant work at translating the Bible from the ancient Hebrew, ancient Greek and all the ancient languages that the Bible was written. This has been the ongoing process as more knowledge of these languages are discovered.
We know that the translations are bad that doesn’t mean the book is corrupted it just means we have more to do to translate it to our ever changing language.

 

[ashab_al-yameen]

Sorry, but that is not a sufficient answer to my comments.

 

[ashab_al-yameen]

MommaKat:

Please sir don’t use Protestant scholars for all of your information. The mainline Prostestant demoninations have been secularized to a point that they are hardly reconizable christian. They are also religion that have come out of heresy in the past. At this point in time there are over 30,000 different Protestant demonimations in the United States alone and new ones being formed daily. This is what happens when you detact yourself from the Rock (chair of Peter) you drift futher and futher away from the truth.
Your prophet Mohammed was influenced by just such heretical Christian in his time. His wifes brother was a Christian who was a nostrian.
Translation have been difficult. The English language has words for cousins and aunts. Aramic and Hebrew do not. That is only one example. There is constant work at translating the Bible from the ancient Hebrew, ancient Greek and all the ancient languages that the Bible was written. This has been the ongoing process as more knowledge of these languages are discovered.
We know that the translations are bad that doesn’t mean the book is corrupted it just means we have more to do to translate it to our ever changing language.

We know that “Bar” in Aramaic means “the Son of” and “Abbas” means “the Father”

They translated “Barjona” to mean “Son of Jona”

Why is “Barabbas” so hard to translate for them?

 

[The_Eurasian]

ashab al-yameen:

We know that “Bar” in Aramaic means “the Son of” and “Abbas” means “the Father”

They translated “Barjona” to mean “Son of Jona”

Why is “Barabbas” so hard to translate for them?

ashab al-yameen

You are switching one word with another word, heh heh heh heh

“Abba” is father in Aramaic. Abbas is a different word!!!

Was the name of the prisoner “BARABBA”?

 

[Ghosty]

ashab al-yameen: You’re still misrepresenting the term father. It has many, many implications. During his ministry, Jesus was not known as “Son of the Father” during His ministry. Read the Gospels and you will never hear him refered to as “Son of the Father”, though He does mention the Father many times. He was actually called “Son of Man”, and was widely known by that title. There is no way an audience of the day would confuse Bar-Abbas with Jesus, Son of Man.

So, your “Barabbas” argument is without merit, and is a complete red herring.

 

[Nan_S]

r.gonzales:

we don’t even consider these accounts to be authentic, so how is jesus a liar? we don’t believe that he gave any indication that he was divine or part of any trinity or anything of the sort, we believe that he told the children of israel to worship Allah alone, just as is mentioned in the Quran.

You are proclaiming that the entire Christian New Testament is myth, legend, and lies. And your basis for this is the unsubstantiated visions of a single man who lived over half a millenium after-the-fact.

While I appreciate your dedication to your faith, I find your lack of serious interest in verifying his claims to be disturbing.

You insist on perpetuating ignorance and rejecting the historical record. Obviously, we can have no meeting of the minds on this.

 

[The_Eurasian]

Nan S:

You are proclaiming that the entire Christian New Testament is myth, legend, and lies. And your basis for this is the unsubstantiated visions of a single man who lived over half a millenium after-the-fact.

While I appreciate your dedication to your faith, I find your lack of serious interest in verifying his claims to be disturbing.

You insist on perpetuating ignorance and rejecting the historical record. Obviously, we can have no meeting of the minds on this.

In response to R.Gonzales, quoted in post 94 by Nan S,

And because Muslims do believe in Jesus as one of their prophets, and believe that Jesus is in Heaven and will come back,

In the BAPTISM OF JESUS BY JOHN THE BAPTIST, ALL THREE PERSONS OF THE BLESSED TRINITY WERE PRESENT.

Some 2,000 years later, IN 1929, ALL THREE PERSONS OF THE BLESSED TRINITY SIMULTANEOUSLY APPEARED TO LUCIA IN THE CHAPEL OF THE DOROTHEAN NUNS IN SPAIN. Lucia is the oldest of 3 children to whom OUR LADY OF THE HOLY ROSARY APPEARED IN THE APPARITIONS IN FATIMA IN 1917. You are a Muslim. Maybe this apparition was for you because FATIMA IS THE FAVORITE DAUGHTER OF MUHAMMAD. One of the main prophecies in Fatima was the fall of CZARIST RUSSIA WHICH HAPPENED!!! Another is the return of atheist Russia back to God. As you can see, THE USSR AND ITS SATELLITE COUNTRIES FELL WITHOUT THE US FIRING A SINGLE MISSILE. Russia is now all alone!!!

Even in the Old Testament of the JEWS, 3 VISITORS MADE A VISIT TO ABRAHAM AND SARAH. THEY SAID THAT SARAH WILL BE PREGNANT!!! REMEMBER??? MIRACLES COME FROM GOD!!!

You think God will make apparitions like these if God did not want us to know that He is a THREE PERSON ONE GOD?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I-N-R-I

 

[JP2Admirer]

r.gonzales:

what i think ashab al-yameen is getting at are these biblical “facts” that support islamic belief that jesus, son of mary, was not crucified.

• two men named jesus, both in prison at the same time. one called jesus, the messiah/christ and the other jesus barabbas.
• it is said that barabbas literally means “son of father”, which could be understood to mean “son of God” since “the father” is a common reference to God. the argument is that barabbas is not his name, but rather a title, similar to the title the messiah/christ.
• so, now you have two men named jesus, with no real clear cut indication as to which one is which, jesus the son of God or jesus the messiah, who is supposed to be one in the same… with this doubt exists the possibility that the “wrong” jesus was released and that jesus, the son of mary, was that “wrong” jesus, while the other took his place on the cross.

Allah says in the Quran, “and their statement, ‘surely, we killed the messiah, jesus son of mary, Allah’s messenger.’ - and they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him. however, it was made to resemble it for them. and surely, those who differ about it are certainly in doubt about it. they do not have any knowledge of it except the following of speculation. and they did not kill him with certainty. rather, Allah raised him to Him. and Allah is Mighty, Wise.” (4:157-158).

And Peter was crucified upside down in Rome because he was unworthy of dying like the imposter who was killed in the place of Jesus? Answer me this, why did the Apostles go to there deaths claiming Christ was crucified? Under pain of torture, why did none of their stories change?

I’m sorry, but you put twelve men together and tell them they are going to be killed for someone who faked their death, and at least one of them is going to crack under punishment. Yet none of them did; NOT ONE.

Explain to me their motivation? They weren’t going to be rich. Under the Roman Empire they were criminals; considered atheists, so fame couldn’t be a motivation. Aceticism is the Christian calling, so carnal pleasures certainly wouldn’t be theirs to have. What was it then, that inspired these blessed martyrs to go to there deaths? A man who never really died? A man who faked His death?

I’m sorry, but the only logical explaination is that Jesus the Christ died, the Apostles witnessed His death, and saw Him resurrected. Anything less than this, and one of the twelve would’ve folded under the pain of torture.

This whole situation regarding “Barabbas” is exactly why sola scriptura is a dangerous heresy. Sure, there could’ve have been a mistake in the writing and the two “Jesus” confused. It is history that unlocks this heretical view. The Bible doesn’t explain the deaths of the Apostles. The Bible doesn’t speak of the persecutions under Nero. The Muslims on this board could be right, that Christians have been mistaken in their interpretation of the Bible for centuries. However, history proves that Christians are not mistaken. The apostles went to their deaths, and they would NOT have done so had Jesus not actually died. Also, had Jesus not actually died, one of them would’ve have confessed that He wasn’t divine and that He didn’t die. None of them did.

My Muslim brothers; explain to me why the Apostles went to their deaths for an imposter? Also, explain to me why none of their stories ever contradicted each other regarding the death of Jesus? If you can do this you have my attention. If not; stop trusting your prophet and look to history for the answers. If God is Truth and we all hold that He is, then Allah will not hold it against you if you seek out answers outside of the Koran. God promised us that if we seek we shall find; however, He never said if you don’t seek you will find. Please seek; don’t take some cookie cutter propaganda you’ve been spoonfed for truth; search for the Truth and He shall set you free!

 

[ashab_al-yameen]

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
ashab al-yameen

You are switching one word with another word, heh heh heh heh

“Abba” is father in Aramaic. Abbas is a different word!!!

Was the name of the prisoner “BARABBA”?

I gave you the source of where I got my info from. What is YOUR evidence that Abbas does not mean “the Father”?

 

[ashab_al-yameen]

JP2Admirer:

And Peter was crucified upside down in Rome because he was unworthy of dying like the imposter who was killed in the place of Jesus? Answer me this, why did the Apostles go to there deaths claiming Christ was crucified? Under pain of torture, why did none of their stories change?

I’m sorry, but you put twelve men together and tell them they are going to be killed for someone who faked their death, and at least one of them is going to crack under punishment. Yet none of them did; NOT ONE.

Explain to me their motivation? They weren’t going to be rich. Under the Roman Empire they were criminals; considered atheists, so fame couldn’t be a motivation. Aceticism is the Christian calling, so carnal pleasures certainly wouldn’t be theirs to have. What was it then, that inspired these blessed martyrs to go to there deaths? A man who never really died? A man who faked His death?

I’m sorry, but the only logical explaination is that Jesus the Christ died, the Apostles witnessed His death, and saw Him resurrected. Anything less than this, and one of the twelve would’ve folded under the pain of torture.

This whole situation regarding “Barabbas” is exactly why sola scriptura is a dangerous heresy. Sure, there could’ve have been a mistake in the writing and the two “Jesus” confused. It is history that unlocks this heretical view. The Bible doesn’t explain the deaths of the Apostles. The Bible doesn’t speak of the persecutions under Nero. The Muslims on this board could be right, that Christians have been mistaken in their interpretation of the Bible for centuries. However, history proves that Christians are not mistaken. The apostles went to their deaths, and they would NOT have done so had Jesus not actually died. Also, had Jesus not actually died, one of them would’ve have confessed that He wasn’t divine and that He didn’t die. None of them did.

My Muslim brothers; explain to me why the Apostles went to their deaths for an imposter? Also, explain to me why none of their stories ever contradicted each other regarding the death of Jesus? If you can do this you have my attention. If not; stop trusting your prophet and look to history for the answers. If God is Truth and we all hold that He is, then Allah will not hold it against you if you seek out answers outside of the Koran. God promised us that if we seek we shall find; however, He never said if you don’t seek you will find. Please seek; don’t take some cookie cutter propaganda you’ve been spoonfed for truth; search for the Truth and He shall set you free!

Matthew 5:17–20

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

1 Corithians 10:25
25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience,

Jesus told his Apostles to follow EVERY LETTER of the Laws, while Paul instructed them to eat ANYTHING they wanted.

Galatians 2:15-16
15"We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Here Paul contradicts Jesus, for Jesus preached that we must observe the Law, while Paul preached that we must only concentrate on faith.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

My Muslim brothers; explain to me why the Apostles went to their deaths for an imposter?

Salaam Brother JP2 Admirer;
Can you relate to us the exact circumstances of the death of every one of them, or provide us with a link(s) which does(do)?

Also, explain to me why none of their stories ever contradicted each other regarding the death of Jesus?

Did the apostles directly witness (eye-witness) the death of Jesus?
Also, did the apostles write the stories of the death of Jesus themselves?
Many Thanks.

Salaam.
Joseph.