Jesus did not write one letter of Scripture

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De_Maria said:
You are presuming a Protestant state of mind. I am not Protestant. I accept the teaching of the Catholic Church and the books which the Church accepts.

Again, since you must be your own pope then you must prove for yourself what you believe.

Whereas, it is enough for Catholics to accept the authority of the Church which Scripture calls the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. (1 Tim 3:15).
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I understand you accept the authority of your church, you wouldn’t be Catholic if you didn’t…right 🙂

But, you have made a claim that you apparently can’t back up. Actually, no one can back up the claim you made. None of the extant versions of the LXX date back prior to around the 4th century BC. We just don’t know what books Jesus used as a demonstrable fact…

Anyway, I am not my own pope…don’t know enough Latin.

You cited the scripture that the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth and I wholeheartedly agree.
 
grampben said:
Yes, but you stated that they rejected all tradition.
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I think that is a common Catholic mis-conception. Probably as prevalent a mis-conception among Catholics as Catholics worshipping Mary among Protestants.
 
De_Maria said:
Because he doesn’t recognize the authority of the Church. Therefore, he must make his own decisions as to what version of the Bible to accept, what traditions to keep, what to believe and what not to believe.
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I don’t recognize the authority of the Roman Catholic Church.
 
SemperReformada said:
I think that is a common Catholic mis-conception. Probably as prevalent a mis-conception among Catholics as Catholics worshipping Mary among Protestants.
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True, another one being that many seem to think that we think of our own denominations as authoritative in the same way they see the Catholic church as authoritative.
But many protestants make grave misconceptions of the catholic faith also, as you have said.
 
grampben said:
Yes, but you stated that they rejected all tradition.
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Who? Come on Gramps. Be reasonable. You expect me to give a specific detailed description of every confession in the Reformed traditions?

As you probably already know, they have rejected tradition in varying degrees. So what is your point?
 
De_Maria said:
Who? Come on Gramps. Be reasonable. You expect me to give a specific detailed description of every confession in the Reformed traditions?

As you probably already know, they have rejected tradition in varying degrees. So what is your point?
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It’s just that you said they rejected all tradition. They being who I was talking about when I sent that post - Luther and Calvin.
 
SemperReformada said:
I think that is a common Catholic mis-conception. Probably as prevalent a mis-conception among Catholics as Catholics worshipping Mary among Protestants.
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It must be a common Protestant misconception as well. There are many Protestant here and at the various anti-Catholic websites who violently and in the strongest language, reject what tradition.

They normally stand on this verse:
Matthew 15:3
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
 
grampben said:
True, another one being that many seem to think that we think of our own denominations as authoritative in the same way they see the Catholic church as authoritative…
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Not so. That is why I said you must all be your own popes. You don’t accept the authority of the Church even though Jesus established a Church and gave her the authority to bind and loose.
 
De_Maria said:
It must be a common Protestant misconception as well. There are many Protestant here and at the various anti-Catholic websites who violently and in the strongest language, reject what tradition.

They normally stand on this verse:
Matthew 15:3
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
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Most of these are baptists, which descend from the anabaptist movement, who did reject tradition in its entirety. The mainline reformers however held some tradition at least. Calvin constantly referred to Augustine.
 
grampben said:
It’s just that you said they rejected all tradition. They being who I was talking about when I sent that post - Luther and Calvin.
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Many, many confessions derived from Luther and Calvin, not just Lutheranism and Calvinism.

Do you want to reduce this discussion to either Lutheranism or Calvinism? I can do so. Both Lutheranism and Calvinism believe in Sola Scriptura and they differ in doctrine.

Yet Scripture says:
Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Therefore, both Lutheranism and Calvinism have rejected the Scriptures they claim to believe by rejecting the authority of the Chruch they claimed to reform.
 
grampben said:
Most of these are baptists, which descend from the anabaptist movement, who did reject tradition in its entirety. The mainline reformers however held some tradition at least. Calvin constantly referred to Augustine.
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But what do Calvinists believe? I have had many and several debates with one Calvinist in particular who continually brings up the idea that we must no longer keep traditions because Jesus rejected them.

So, although Calvin kept some traditions, do his followers do so?
 
SemperReformada said:
I understand you accept the authority of your church, you wouldn’t be Catholic if you didn’t…right 🙂

But, you have made a claim that you apparently can’t back up. Actually, no one can back up the claim you made. None of the extant versions of the LXX date back prior to around the 4th century BC. We just don’t know what books Jesus used as a demonstrable fact…

Anyway, I am not my own pope…don’t know enough Latin.

You cited the scripture that the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth and I wholeheartedly agree.
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Sooo, you’re Catholic? Semper Reformada means “always reformed”?

Kind of a strange motto for a Catholic, don’t you think?
 
grampben said:
All we have to believe in is Christ and what he has done, and live our lives accordingly. The rest are matters of indifference
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No, no, noooo.

We believe what Christ instructed us to believe. Christ didn’t say we could pick and choose.
 
Hisalone said:
Man can commune with God through His word. His word is alive and it is powerfull and sharper than any two edge sword. Jesus said His words give life.
It is by chewing gnawing and eating gods word that we have His life in us.
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Jesus gives life, not the bible. It is through God’s Grace that we have life in us, not through reading a book. As Augustine said, if you have faith, hope and charity you do not need the scriptures. The scriptures are a stepping stone toward something more important.

This highlights the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. You view Grace as simply God’s favor and so simply reading the scriptures gives you life. Catholics on the other hand believe there is an ontological reality to Grace. Grace is the divine nature which gives you life. It actually is a communion with the divine nature which Christ gives us. Christ took on our nature and He gave us His nature. So the true Word of God is Christ and it is through communion with Him that you recieve life, not through reading a book (even though the scriptures are inerrant and are good and proffitable).
 
De_Maria said:
But what do Calvinists believe? I have had many and several debates with one Calvinist in particular who continually brings up the idea that we must no longer keep traditions because Jesus rejected them.

So, although Calvin kept some traditions, do his followers do so?
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I already referred to the creeds used in reformed churches.
 
Hisalone said:
Jews rejected the Deuterocanon because of the Hellenization of Judiasm.
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Why should it matter why they rejected it? They rejected it around 100AD which makes it meaningless because they had already rejected Christ. If modern day Jews said that Luke was not scripture because Luke was not a Jew would you all of a sudden reject Luke?
 
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