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dolphinlove
Guest
He is going to tell you to read some book, dont hold your breath on an answer here…
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MStreeter
Guest
paarsurrey,
Although I would greatly enjoy to read the books you suggested I find it would be too slow and anti-productive in this format. Please post excerpts or quotations from the books you claim to be the proof. That would move this discussion beyond hearsay.
Respectfully,
Streeter
Although I would greatly enjoy to read the books you suggested I find it would be too slow and anti-productive in this format. Please post excerpts or quotations from the books you claim to be the proof. That would move this discussion beyond hearsay.
Respectfully,
Streeter
R
robert_ambrose
Guest
was it not thomas who lived and died in india
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
What is from Quran?- the primary and foremost source of Islam, you wrote the heading but did mention no verse from it.
You have also given nothing from Sunnah- the second source of Islamic guidance.
Hadith was not collected in the life time of Muhammad, it was collected after two/three hundred years after the death of Muhammad, and is only considered authentic if it is in accordance of Quran, otherwise not.
So, kindly quote from Quran, if you want to prove anything.
I think you understand.
Thanks
The first and primary source on “Jesus did not die on Cross” and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
Yes, as OTBible mentions that a untrue Prophet has to be killed. If Jesus was killed by the Jews on Cross, that makes him an untrue Prophet, which Muslim cannot believe, this is one reason.
The second is that to me , in fact,Jesus was though put on Cross but he was delivered from it in a neardead position, laid in a spacious tomb ( not buried in a suffocating grave). He was treated by his friends/followers with a lot of frangrances-cum-medicines, that were important ingredients of Marham-e-Issa called (ointment of Jesus) originally known as Unguentum Apostolorem. After the treatment he went out from the tomb, and from Galilee alongwith his mother Mary he set off on a journey in search of ten lost tribes of the hous of Israel, who had settled in Afghanistan, North West Frontier of Pakistan, Kashmir India. He is buried ther in Sirinagar, Kashmir India.
So our belief about Jesus is reasonable.
Thanks
The problem here with some of my Christian friends is that they don’t let God speak for Himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational/reasonable/logical questions, of course we are not discussing here pure Mathematics or Physics, and we are mostly concerned with the every day moral, Spiritual and religious issues, and a religious worthwhile book must resolve such issues, if it is truthful to its purpose. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try filling the void by putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is hence left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise, anybody’s guess.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I think your suggestion is reasonable.
I first give an overview of the contents of the book " Jesus in India" written by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahamad 1835-1908, the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi and then I shall be giving excerpts from it as request by you.
Jesus in India
INTRODUCTION
This explains as to the situation on ground when this book was written. I have already given first few lines from it in my earlier post.
CHAPTER 1
(Provides the evidence from NTBible)
CHAPTER 2
On the evidence of the Holy Quran
and authentic traditions in proof
of Jesus’ survival
CHAPTER 3
On the evidence derived from
books of medicine
CHAPTER 4
Evidence from books of history
As the following chapter contains evidence of various kinds, it is divided for the sake of clearness of sequence into several sections, which are set out below.
SECTION 1
Evidence from Islamic books which contain
a mention of Jesus’ journey
SECTION 2
Evidence from books on Buddhism
SECTION 3
On the evidence from books of history
which show that the coming of Jesus to
the Punjab and neighboring territories was inevitable
ISRAELITISH TRACES
MAP OF JESUS TRAVELS is also included in the book.
You might like to read the book freely at
alislam.org/library/books…dia/index.html
on the official Website of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
Thanks
The first and primary source on Jesus did not die on Cross and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
The Apostal Thomas was a confident of Jesus, he also came to India, formed a church, died here and buried here in India, there are several important relics from him in India.
Thanks
The first and primary source on Jesus did not die on Cross and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi.
G
Greg27
Guest
One Apocryphal Gospel does talk about one of Jesus’s disciples (Thomas) travelling to India, but to my knowledge none speaks of Jesus actually travelling there.
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robert_ambrose
Guest
Jesus did not go to india, did not the people say to one another when Jesus was preaching,is this not the carpenter, Joseph’s son
J
jimmy85
Guest
Man if you intend to debunk the divinity of Jesus, you should rather use the apocrypahl texts rahter than a book that was written in the 19 century. lol
And Thomas did was in India he died martyr, you know why because when the first christians coIonizators,
“think they were from purtugals” went to colonizated India n those places they already found christians comunitys.
But how is that posible, Christians werent there already?
Well that is a prove that Thomas did was there and he left those christians comunitys.
Also I think it appears in the book “History of the Church” of Eusebio of Cesarea. there he mention where the apostoles went to preach the gospel, and he say that Thomas was over there.
J
jimmy85
Guest
You can read the biblie or any holy book and transform Jesus in wahtever you want. A prophet, an angel like jehova witneses do,
a man that do miracles, a simple person, etc etc.
many read the Koran n believe Mohamed was an evil man or a madman
.
B
BelFarfalla
Guest
the primary and foremost source of Islam, you wrote the heading but did mention no verse from it.
You have also given nothing from Sunnah- the second source of Islamic guidance.
Hadith was not collected in the life time of Muhammad, it was collected after two/three hundred years after the death of Muhammad, and is only considered authentic if it is in accordance of Quran, otherwise not.
Many of the Hadith were recorded right after Muhammad’s death. For example his child bride Aisha is famous for having collect hundreds if not thousands of them. Many hadith are direct quotes from Aisha. Others were quoted by people who lived and fought with Muhammad. Shari’ah law leans heavily on ahadith. For example my book of Shari’ah quotes both the Qur’an and Hadith. One can always check the tafsir to further interpretation and understanding of ahadith. Since mainstream Islam accepts the ahadith that I listed, we cannot categorically dismiss them.
Remember that while I respect your branch of Islam you cannot speak for most Muslims because your sect is considered heretical and perhaps even apostasy. I’d rather that your sect was main stream. The world would not be in the mess it’s in if that were the case. But we are dealing with a problem… radicalization of mainstream Islam.
*You are right. I promised Qur’anic verses that further showed the violence of Muhammad. However, I got distracted by real life did not go back and add a second post of violent verses from the Qur’an. So there are a few, only a few, of the violent verses.
These are about Muhammad telling the Muslims to fight the pagans, Jews, Christians and so forth.
Two concerns about these verses arise.
- Are they simply a record of history or are the commandments for all time. Suffice it to say that the Qur’an is not a history book but a book of laws and commandments. These verses and their context is commanding Muslims on who to fight infidels for all time.
**IMHO, it’s easy to fight and kill. If Muhammad had found a wise way to bring peace, I would be very impressed and might consider that Islam had some truth, especially if he had followed the teachings of Jesus in these. But instead Muhammad chose the path of violence. A good indication that Muhammad was setting up a war between Muslims and non-Muslims is that he commanded Muslims to be friends to Christians and Jews…. That we could not be trusted. What a huge wedge of hate.
*(continued below for quotes from Qur’an)
B
BelFarfalla
Guest
*(continued from above) *
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/
*Qur’an 8:39 *So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
*Qur’an 9:29 *“Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book-until they pay the poll tax out hand and are humbled.”
*Qu’ran 2:216 *“Fighting is prescribed for you”
*Qu’ran 4:89 *“Slay them wherever you find them
Qu’ran 9:36“Fight the idolaters utterly (Remember that to Muslims, Christens who believe in the trinity are idolaters or pagans.)
*Qur’an 5:94 *“Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment.”
*Qur’an 8:7 *“Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.” [Another translation reads:] “You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.”
*Qur’an 8:39 *“Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
*Qur’an 8:65 *“O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”
*Qur’an 8:73 *“The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah’s religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid—these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise).”
Qur’an 9:5“Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
*Qur’an 9:14 *“Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”
*Qur’an 9:19 *“Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah’s Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah.”
Qur’an 9:38“Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”
Qur’an 9:88“The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”
*Qur’an 9:112 *“The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”
*Qur’an 9:123 *“Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
*Qur’an 48:16 *“Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: ‘You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture.”
Qur’an 48:22“If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/
*Qur’an 8:39 *So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
*Qur’an 9:29 *“Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book-until they pay the poll tax out hand and are humbled.”
*Qu’ran 2:216 *“Fighting is prescribed for you”
*Qu’ran 4:89 *“Slay them wherever you find them
Qu’ran 9:36“Fight the idolaters utterly (Remember that to Muslims, Christens who believe in the trinity are idolaters or pagans.)
*Qur’an 5:94 *“Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment.”
*Qur’an 8:7 *“Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.” [Another translation reads:] “You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.”
*Qur’an 8:39 *“Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
*Qur’an 8:65 *“O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”
*Qur’an 8:73 *“The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah’s religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid—these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise).”
Qur’an 9:5“Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
*Qur’an 9:14 *“Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”
*Qur’an 9:19 *“Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah’s Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah.”
Qur’an 9:38“Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”
Qur’an 9:88“The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”
*Qur’an 9:112 *“The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”
*Qur’an 9:123 *“Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
*Qur’an 48:16 *“Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: ‘You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture.”
Qur’an 48:22“If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah.”
J
jimmy85
Guest
That is scary
D
dolphinlove
Guest
Dear God,
Please bless Belbarfalla for showing Paarsurrey the truth.
For lets pray his efforts do not go in vain.
Amen
Please bless Belbarfalla for showing Paarsurrey the truth.
For lets pray his efforts do not go in vain.
Amen
B
BelFarfalla
Guest
This is an ongoing discussion or ‘argument’ between me and Paarsurrey. He says I’m taking it all out of context.
I feel for Paarsurrey because he belongs to a sect of Islam that is looking for peace in the teachings of Muhammad. This requires for example denying a huge percentage of the Hadith. It calls for putting much of the violence of the qur’an in historical context and believing that they only apply when someone attacks Muslims in physical warfare.
Unfortunately for Paarsurrey, his sect is a minority. It is considered Islamic heresy/apostacy so his life is as much in danger as ours is from the likes of bin Ladin and radical Islam.
Paarsurrey is in a very bad place. He has shown us articles about how his people are persecuted by mainstream Islam.
D
dolphinlove
Guest
Yes i have seen the arguments and have been following them.
He is asking you to provide examples, and you do, then renigs and/or does not follow up with an answer.
I just hope he does see there are other avenues to take and his form of Islam, as peaceful as it is, its not the true Islam.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Was this before or after He died in the South of France ? And did He die in Rome, first, or later ? Or did He die partly in all three places ? 
Of course, if He was Julius Caesar, or didn’t exist, we have an answer - sort of.
Since He had died among the Essenes, outside Jerusalem, His other deaths are rather hard to fit in.It’s much simpler to believe in the boring old Chritian doctrines
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anthony022071
Guest
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
Yes, our sect is under persecution for more than a hundred years in many countries, but we are a peaceful community we do not like to reciprocate.
JesusYeshuaIssa was also persecuted by Jewish clergy of his period so have these adherents of MullahIslam become like Jews.
Thanks
You might like to access
thepersecution.org/
for seeing latest about persecution of Ahmadis
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