Jesus DNA?

[hecd2]

Matt16_18:

None of the speculations about where Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are located are dogmas of the Faith. But I can see that you desperately need Catholic beliefs to be presented in their most naïve form so that you can be smug and complacent as you use your education to disparage these naïve speculations. You have made a choice to be an apostate, and any presentation of the Catholic Faith that is not simplistic is a threat to you.

Indeed they are not dogmas of the faith. Neither is your idea that the Garden of Eden, heaven and hell are in parallel universes a dogma de fide.

I am simply making the point that most Catholics throughout the history of the faith would regard these domains as being in this universe and even on this earth, whether that was dogma or not.

The rest of your post is an illogical ad hominem. Your argument is not with me, but with the Catholic Encyclopaedia. I can give you links to these articles in the Encyclopaedia if you can’t find them for yourself.

The fact is, as I have said from the outset, your idea that paradise, heaven and hell lie in different and parallel universes is *not *conventional Catholic belief.

Alec
homepage.ntlworld.com/macandrew/Grenada_disaster/Grenada_disaster.htm

 

[RMP]

What a maricle, i think I agree with ALEC…hm better rethink this through…jk

 

[Matt16_18]

hecd2:

I am simply making the point that most Catholics throughout the history of the faith would regard these domains as being in this universe and even on this earth, whether that was dogma or not.

You are not simply making this point. You are desperately trying to convince yourself that science has proven the Catholic Church incorrect, and that you will not be culpable for eternal damnation by living and dying as an apostate.

 

[ISABUS]

Hi Matt,

I’ve taught catechism and confirmation classes to Catholic youth for fifteen years. In all honesty, Catholic children, and adults entering our faith, are not instructed to believe Heaven or Purgatory exist in a parellel universe. None of the Catholic teachers of yesterday or today that I have known even mention to children a Hell or the Garden of Eden let alone remotely suggest while reading the bible to them that these two places are in a parellel universe. I’m curious to know who within the Catholic Church taught you to believe that the Garden of Eden or Heaven, Hell or Purgatory exist in a parellel universe.

I’ve noticed mention of the word “dogma” used within the context of sentences. My Holy Catholic Bible’s encyclopedia states the following which may be useful:

Dogma: (Gr., ordinace). A truth directly proposed by the Church for our belief as an article of divine revelation. The vulgar notion of a dogma, as an arbitrary doctrine imposed nobody quite knows why, is thus seen to be at fault: the content of a dogma is truth revealed by God and therefore must be believed: it is not assumed to be true because many believe it.

Thanks,
Isabus

 

[Matt16_18]

ISABUS:

Hi Matt,

I’ve taught catechism and confirmation classes to Catholic youth for fifteen years. In all honesty, Catholic children, and adults entering our faith, are not instructed to believe Heaven or Purgatory exist in a parellel universe.

I have already said that using the words “parallel universe” when describing the Communion of Saints is NOT the typical language that Catholics use. But the Catholic Church teaches that Heaven and Purgatory do exist, and one cannot know this and deny this without being a heretic. Do YOU believe that Hell exists? Do you believe that Hell is literally a place underground?

None of the Catholic teachers of yesterday or today that I have known even mention to children a Hell or the Garden of Eden …

I am well aware that many Catholic parishes no longer teach the faith to their children. What is your point?

I’m curious to know who within the Catholic Church taught you to believe that the Garden of Eden or Heaven, Hell or Purgatory exist in a parellel universe.

Where do YOU think that Heaven and Hell are? Do you really think that Heaven is a place located above the clouds in the sky, and that Hell is a place inside the earth?

 

[ISABUS]

Matt16_18:

I have already said that using the words “parallel universe” when describing the Communion of Saints is NOT the typical language that Catholics use. But the Catholic Church teaches that Heaven and Purgatory do exist, and one cannot know this and deny this without being a heretic. Do YOU believe that Hell exists? Do you believe that Hell is literally a place underground?

I am well aware that many Catholic parishes no longer teach the faith to their children. What is your point?

Where do YOU think that Heaven and Hell are? Do you really think that Heaven is a place located above the clouds in the sky, and that Hell is a place inside the earth?

Matt, are you saying it is “your” revelation that a parallel universe exists? If so then I would have to say your dogma doesn’t fit into the mainstream of Catholic thought, therefore, educators of youth aren’t teaching your dogma nor does the Vatican endorse it. The Church doesn’t call people heretics for believing in a revelation they may have even if it may contradict existing dogma. (Please reread the encyclopedia explanation I provided you for the word “dogma”. ) By the way, aren’t you relieved in knowing you aren’t considered a heretic for believing in your revelation that a ‘parallel universe’ exists.

Our faith is based on the Apostles Creed. The Ten Commandments help to keep us loving and kind to each other.

I believe what I have been taught by wonderful parents and priests. They have taught me that only GOD knows the truth of it ALL. I do believe there does exist another dimension within this universe where our souls live on once our human bodies die because I have briefly glimsed into that realm. From what I have seen, a translucent image of our human body does appear to live there and the scenery is nothing like anything I’ve every seen here. I can’t begin to describe the colors nor the objects nor the flora. I have **never **seen God nor Christ yet I know they exist. Their presence is felt within by whole being. I have a personal relationship with Jesus. Do you? He is a most gentle and kind protector and guide who leads me to the truths I need to know along my path to LIFE.

I’m very tired now. Thank you for your time ~ if you wish to poke fun at me for the second time round then please consider I haven’t mocked your idea of a parallel universe.
Isabus

 

[ISABUS]

Matt ~

Consider looking into String Theory. Therein may lay some possible answers that will satisfy your quest for knowing the truth. Ask Alec about String Theory. I’m too busy at this time helping homeless children. I’ll join in when I have free time.

Matt, I admire your love for God and the Church. You are a soldier for Christ. One thing I have learned as an ancient being is there never need be a war if we find the alternative door that leads to peace.

God Bless YOU,
Isabus

 

[Matt16_18]

ISABUS:

I do believe there does exist another dimension within this universe where our souls live on once our human bodies die because I have briefly glimsed into that realm. From what I have seen, a translucent image of our human body does appear to live there and the scenery is nothing like anything I’ve every seen here. I can’t begin to describe the colors nor the objects nor the flora.

When you describe the souls in Heaven as being in “another dimension within this universe”, you are saying the same thing that I mean, when I say the souls in Heaven exist in a “parallel universe”. We are just using different words to describe the same concept.

I believe that we both agree that the souls in Heaven are not literally located in a place above the clouds in the sky, but that they are in “another dimension” (to use your words). However, even though these souls are in another dimension, this does not prevent the souls in the Church Triumphant (Heaven) from being in communion with the Church Militant (the Church on earth) and the Church Suffering (the souls in Purgatory). So if we define “the universe” as the place where all angels and saints dwell, then it seems reasonable to me to say that the souls in Heaven are in “another dimension within this universe”. We are simply defining the word “universe” in different ways - your definition of universe is what I would call a multiverse.

 

[RMP]

The creed states “we believe in one GOD,…maker of heaven and earth, from all the is seen and unseen…” anything more than that is speculation based on limited (name removed by moderator)licit glimses of the unseen that may be described in scripture. I would never go so far as to try and create theories or dogmas on this matter. After all, it is UNSEEN by us. Not just visually, but mentally too.

 

[Matt16_18]

RMP:

The creed states “we believe in one GOD,…maker of heaven and earth, from all the is seen and unseen…”

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

325** The Apostles’ Creed professes that God is “creator of heaven and earth”. The Nicene Creed makes it explicit that this profession includes “all that is, seen and unseen”.

326 The Scriptural expression “heaven and earth” means all that exists, creation in its entirety. It also indicates the bond, deep within creation, that both unites heaven and earth and distinguishes the one from the other: “the earth” is the world of men, while “heaven” or “the heavens” can designate both the firmament and God’s own “place” - “our Father in heaven” and consequently the “heaven” too which is eschatological glory. Finally, “heaven” refers to the saints and the “place” of the spiritual creatures, the angels, who surround God.

 

[Ghosty]

Matt16_18: An unseen dimension does not imply a parallel universe. A dimension is range of measurement, for lack of a better term. A universe is a collection of such ranges. God and the angels can exist in our universe in an unseen dimension and not be in a seperate universe.

For example, when you cover one eye you see in two dimensions, the third being unseen in the strictest sense of the word, but you don’t shift to a different universe. In this sense, the angels are literally standing amongst us at Mass, in our own universe, but beyond our perceptible dimensions. I believe that is what ISABUS was getting at.

 

[Matt16_18]

Ghosty

326 The Scriptural expression “heaven and earth” means all that exists, creation in its entirety. It also indicates the bond, deep within creation, that both unites heaven and earth and distinguishes the one from the other: “the earth” is the world of men, while “heaven” or “the heavens” can designate both the firmament and God’s own “place” - “our Father in heaven” and consequently the “heaven” too which is eschatological glory. Finally, “heaven” refers to the saints and the “place” of the spiritual creatures, the angels, who surround God.”

 

[Ghosty]

I don’t see the point of the quote you used. The third and the second dimension are distinguished from eachother also, and are even perceived completely differently, but exist in the same universe. Three dimensional “entities” and two dimensional “entities” would not necessarily interact, and could be said to hold different places in the same universe.

 

[Matt16_18]

Ghosty:

Three dimensional “entities” and two dimensional “entities” would not necessarily interact, and could be said to hold different places in the same universe.

??? I don’t understand what you are saying. Could you give me an example of a two dimensional entity that exists in our fallen universe?

 

[hecd2]

Matt16_18:

hecd2:

*I am simply making the point that most Catholics throughout the history of the faith would regard these domains as being in this universe and even on this earth, whether that was dogma or not. *

**
You are not simply making this point. You are desperately trying to convince yourself that science has proven the Catholic Church incorrect, and that you will not be culpable for eternal damnation by living and dying as an apostate.

Dear Matt,

I note the fact you have chosen not to discuss the quotations from the Catholic Encyclopaedia which demonstrate that most Catholics throughout the history of the Faith have regarded and regard the Garden of Eden, Heaven and Hell as being of this universe. You seem to have made your idiosyncratic and peculiar beliefs a matter of personal dogma to the extent that you argue them as necessary articles of faith, not minding that that would abandon the majority of Catholics throughout history to heresy.

Instead of addressing the substance of my post, you have resorted to a speculation about my motives and mental processes about which you are necessarily and entirely ignorant and which, furthermore, have nothing to do with the point in question. Address the content of the discussion and abandon the arguments ad hominem.

Alec
evolutionpages.com

 

[hecd2]

RMP:

What a maricle, i think I agree with ALEC…hm better rethink this through…jk

Hi RMP,

Don’t fall into the fallacy of equating the argument and the man. Sure, we disagree about many things that are the subject of this message board, but truth recognises no alliances and friendships. There is no need to assume that because we disagree about many things that we must therefore disagree about everything. Furthermore, the environment of the board limits us in what we explore. I bet that there are matters that we have not touched on, that we agree thoroughly about, and we might well find some thing that we both care intensely about.

It’s dangerous to decide what we believe by who else holds or does not hold the opinion rather than the underlying merit of the position we take.

Alec
homepage.ntlworld.com/macandrew/Grenada_disaster/Grenada_disaster.htm

 

[hecd2]

Matt16_18:

Where do YOU think that Heaven and Hell are? Do you really think that Heaven is a place located above the clouds in the sky, and that Hell is a place inside the earth?

If Isabus holds those views then that would simply be reflecting the conventional beliefs of devout Catholics that held sway for the first 1800 years of existence of the Church, and would not be as you choose to characterise it, a naive or primitive view.

Alec
evolutionpages.com

 

[RMP]

ALEC, I agree, I was actually making the same point with my lighthearted, but smartypants, response.

 

[Matt16_18]

hecd2:

Dear Matt,

… most Catholics throughout the history of the Faith have regarded and regard the Garden of Eden, Heaven and Hell as being of this universe …

Did Catholics of two thousand years ago have a conception of “this universe” that is in anyway comparable to the way that a modern day Catholic conceives of “this universe”?

Paul speaks of being caught up into the “third heaven” (1Cor. 12:2). What does Paul mean by the “third heaven”? Can you prove that the “third heaven” must be conceived of being in this universe to properly understand this verse?

When St. Hildegarde said that paradise still exists, where do you think that she thought it existed?

 

[hecd2]

Matt16_18:

Did Catholics of two thousand years ago have a conception of “this universe” that is in anyway comparable to the way that a modern day Catholic conceives of “this universe”?

Dear Matt,

No of course not. But that is making my point for me. The dogma of the faithful cannot depend on cosmological concepts that have been developed in the last 90 years. That would be condemning the Catholics of the previous 1,910 years to heresy. You believe that Eden, heaven and hell lie in a space that lies outside the 3+1 metric of this universe, and there is no heresy in that, as far as I know. But you cannot claim this is a belief de fide because almost all catholics up to 90 years ago, had, as you yourself point out, no concept of another space-time metric.

You ridicule the idea that hell is in the bowels of the earth and heaven is above the clouds, but those beliefs that you claim as naive and primitive, are the beliefs that most Catholics held until not that long ago (and many Catholics still hold) . The dogma is sufficiently fluid to accept your belief, and the belief that heaven and hell are in this Universe, and the overwhelmingly popular belief that Eden is is on this earth, provided you abandon the idea that your notion is a necessary article of belief.

Paul speaks of being caught up into the “third heaven” (1Cor. 12:2). What does Paul mean by the “third heaven”? Can you prove that the “third heaven” must be conceived of being in this universe to properly understand this verse?

I have no idea what Paul meant and I cannot prove that the ‘third heaven’ (or any heaven or hell or paradise) is in this universe. It is not a matter that is amenable to scientific proof.

When St. Hildegarde said that paradise still exists, where do you think that she thought it existed?

I think, but cannot prove, that she thought of it on this earth in its original geographical location. Do you have any evidence that suggests otherwise?

Alec
evolutionpages.com