Jesus downgraded by Muhammed from Lord to least prophet.

[Steven_John]

Hi (sam),
I dont know what you wanted from me.

Hadithes are the second half of Islam, if we don’t consider hadithes, then that means we wouldn’t know how many times to pray and how to pray, what to say in each prayer or how to perform Haj, if someone heard you here in Saudi Arabia saying such thing, they will consider you blaspheming.
.

I thought your PM asked for me to give you my honest opinion.
I tried to do that.
You did not ask me for the opinion of SA.

I cant offer them my will i am trying to offer it to the God of the prophets (pbwt).

This means i strive to find good in men not substantiate my faith position.

How do you assert that these positions a are fixed?
Read this:
Step #1: Gabriel asked the gate of heaven to be opened.
Step #2: He was asked who he was by (Someone).
Step #3: Gabriel replied that he was Gabriel.
Step #4: (Someone) asking Gabriel Who is with him?
Step #5: Gabriel said: Muhammad.
Step #7: (Someone) asked: Has he been sent for?
Step #8: Gabriel replied: He has indeed been sent for.
Step #9: The door of the heaven then opened .

Quote:
Where are the other prophets (pbwt)?
Don’t know, ask Muhammed.

Quote:
God could place any being any where at any time.
Correct…

you agree then the positions may not be fixed.

He may have placed them in relation to the personal faith journey of Muhammed (pbuh).
Not relevant.

If God could place any being any where at any time. it could be very relevant.

Could we view the placement opposite to what you assert with Adam being first being created only by God and Jesus (pbwh) second being created at Gods command but born of woman?
If that is the case, then John the Baptist shouldn’t be with Jesus.

I agree accept for i did not assert John (pbwh) out ranked or equal ranked Jesus (pbwh) as it is not for me to rank them. I offered a possibility that Jesus (pbwh) was ranked in your hadith. I already offered the question of where the other prophets are and God can put beings anywhere He sees.

Mans true position is above angels.
In Christianity yes, but in Islam no.

I cant speak for Islamic religion but interpret God commanding angels to bow to man as such.

I get the feeling you did not want to get my opinion but wanted me to agree with you.
You can have this agreement as i can see some logic in your interpretation. i cant help but feel you have tryed to use it for a preconceived position rather than an open one.
I am not about bringing people down but try to build them up when i see goodness.
You an i have discussed the problems you have in SA many times. No need to go there again if you wanted my opinion. I am against the horrible things you have shared with me.

As a boy in a Catholic community i saw and experienced things not of God, some were substantiated by interpretations of teachings.
The easy way for me would be to say all Catholic is bad and focus on the teachings wrong interpretation.

Better path is to build on Gods goodness in Catholics and love them.
It has given me peace and today Catholics are better in my eye.

If i am asked for an opinion of writing and can find any interpretation of goodness i will encourage its believer to see the same.

My Fathers pure goodness is in the breasts of man,
the words bring it out if we submit to His will and reject hatred.

 

[Steven_John]

We Muslims believe that the Gospel is corrupted, not by Jesus himself, but by his decibels after him, we assume that Jesus never called himself God per this verse in (Quran 05:116).

But if you read that verse carefully, you would find that Allah is telling Jesus did you tell the people to worship you and your mother as gods.
But I see no mentioning of any reference in the Bible that support the idea that Christians are worshipping Mary, I wonder from where Muhammed got that idea!

I would like to think you made a typo as many times you testify for the gospels.

I will take a punt that you say you are muslim when you think it will give credibility to your argument.

I accept one can be Christian and Muslim but you have argued for trinity.

A great teacher of Allah word offered a house divided can not stand.

If you are divided it will disturb your peace (sam)

As for people worshiping Mary (bbhn) in that time, why is it so hard to believe? Many would have left pagen godesses and sought a feminine ideal of God to identify with.

Does the quran say the gospel said worship Mary (bbhn) or that people were in error for practicing such?

I tire of this, (sam) you are so blessed i pray you do not waste it.

I have prayed about you, there are SA Muslims in your life you love, you see in them Gods goodness

I send to you my peace.

 

[Angelos]

As for people worshiping Mary (bbhn) in that time, why is it so hard to believe? Many would have left pagen godesses and sought a feminine ideal of God to identify with.

Does the quran say the gospel said worship Mary (bbhn) or that people were in error for practicing such?

You mistakenly presume that Christians worshipped Mary at an indefite time in history (most probably in the seventh century). However, you have no historic evidence to prove the Islamic allegation that worshipping Mary was a common Christian practice before or after Mohammad.

The Nicene Creed, which officially formulated in details the basic Christian tenet of the Triune God, was declared in 325! Even three centuries prior to Mohammad, Christian Trinity did not include Mary and Christians never worshipped Mary as a goddess.

 

[Steven_John]

You mistakenly presume that Christians worshipped Mary at an indefite time in history (most probably in the seventh century). However, you have no historic evidence to prove the Islamic allegation that worshipping Mary was a common Christian practice before or after Mohammad.

The Nicene Creed, which officially formulated in details the basic Christian tenet of the Triune God, was declared in 325! Even three centuries prior to Mohammad, Christian Trinity did not include Mary and Christians never worshipped Mary as a goddess.

No i did not assume just offered it as a possibility not presumption.
I did not offer evidence as it was in relation to the questioning of Jesus (pbwh) in the Quran.
I thought it was the evidence being discussed.

I did not know it was an allegation of common Christian practice.
Sorry if i communicated poorly and you misunderstood.

Peace and blessings

 

[Sam_777]

I thought your PM asked for me to give you my honest opinion.
I tried to do that.
You did not ask me for the opinion of SA.

Because you & “Planten” do not care about Hadiths , I really can’t understand you guys, THERE IS NO WAY IN ISLAM to take only the Quran and leave Hadiths, you would’nt find a single Muslim cleric who supports that idea, Hadiths are the second part of Islam (particularly the authentic ones), without them, simply we wouldn’t have anything to teach us about Islamic rituals, as seen in these two links:
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim

The only explanation I have for anyone who claims that he doesn’t care about Hadithes, is to hide the violence and killing practices of Muhammed.

I offered a possibility that Jesus (pbwh) was ranked in your hadith.

Its not my hadith, its authentic hadith from Sahih Muslim from the Islam prophet.:ehh:

but interpret God commanding angels to bow to man as such.

That is true, but that was BEFORE Adam commits the sin and sent down to earth, after that there is nothing to support that idea.

I get the feeling you did not want to get my opinion but wanted me to agree with you.
You can have this agreement as i can see some logic in your interpretation. i cant help but feel you have tryed to use it for a preconceived position rather than an open one.
I am not about bringing people down but try to build them up when i see goodness.

Wrong feeling, I respect you opinion, I only asked for your opinion because I thought that you are lost like me between the two religions.

You an i have discussed the problems you have in SA many times.

Exactly when “You & I” have done that?

As a boy in a Catholic community i saw and experienced things not of God, some were substantiated by interpretations of teachings.
The easy way for me would be to say all Catholic is bad and focus on the teachings wrong interpretation.

What are the “things not of God”, could you please explain that more, since I’m considering Catholicism as my Christian denomination.

I would like to think you made a typo as many times you testify for the gospels.

No, I spoke from a Muslim prospective, personally I don’t agree with that. :nope:

I accept one can be Christian and Muslim but you have argued for trinity.

Currently I’m in a transition stage between the two, but at the end I have to be with one only, being over 30 years in Islam particularly in SA, its not easy to switch in a short time, I have to study the new faith well before making my decision.

As for people worshiping Mary (bbhn) in that time, why is it so hard to believe?

Where is the proof of that?, Muhammed simply misunderstood the Holy Spirit with Mary.

Does the quran say the gospel said worship Mary (bbhn) or that people were in error for practicing such?

No the Quran said Allah asked Jesus if he said that.

I have prayed about you, there are SA Muslims in your life you love, you see in them Gods goodness
I send to you my peace.

Thank you Steven.

 

[Sam_777]

Hadith has importance but not above the Quran. We do not learn to pray or Hajj from hadith. We learnt it from the practice (Sunnat) of the Holy prophet. The books of Hadith were written after 200 years after the death of prophet Muhammad.

No planten, we do learn to pray and perform Haj from hadiths WHICH include the practices (Sunnat) of Muhammed, else where would those be written (in your Sheikh diary ):

See yourself here, in Sahih Bukhari & Muslim how to practice “Sunnat” of your holy prophet:

usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim

 

[Sam_777]

So does the hadith state these belief’s, and who do they apply them to,

You want Islam to state that Jesus is Son of God, of course not, that was my description for the Lord of the Lords & King of the Kings, if you’re a Christian and doesn’t want to recognize “Isa” as the Arabic name for Jesus or if you consider him a completely someone else, then that is something else.

 

[Sam_777]

The Nicene Creed, which officially formulated in details the basic Christian tenet of the Triune God, was declared in 325! Even three centuries prior to Mohammad, Christian Trinity did not include Mary and Christians never worshipped Mary as a goddess.

Maybe Muhammed when he saw the pictures of Jesus & Mary on the wall of the Kaaba, he thought people were worshipping her, and even if they were, then that is a proof that the Quran was inspired by Muhammed not God, because simply God should have known that Jesus never said such thing and shouldn’t asked him that question in the first place.

 

[Angelos]

No i did not assume just offered it as a possibility not presumption.
I did not offer evidence as it was in relation to the questioning of Jesus (pbwh) in the Quran.
I thought it was the evidence being discussed.

I did not know it was an allegation of common Christian practice.
Sorry if i communicated poorly and you misunderstood.

Peace and blessings

I might have misunderstood you. I thought you were one of the Muslims that deny history while defending their scripture.

Peace and blessings to you too

 

[Angelos]

Maybe Muhammed when he saw the pictures of Jesus & Mary on the wall of the Kaaba, he thought people were worshipping her, and even if they were, then that is a proof that the Quran was inspired by Muhammed not God, because simply God should have known that Jesus never said such thing and shouldn’t asked him that question in the first place.

I agree

The Koran criticises other faiths on the basis of Mohammad’s misunderstandings and conjecture. The authors of the Koran either mistook the common and traditional veneration of the Virgin for adoration or deliberately designated it as a form of worship so as to equate Christianity with paganism and thus justify the need for a religious correction and guidance through Islam.

 

[Steven_John]

Because you & “Planten” do not care about Hadiths , I really can’t understand you guys, THERE IS NO WAY IN ISLAM to take only the Quran and leave Hadiths, you would’nt find a single Muslim cleric who supports that idea, Hadiths are the second part of Islam (particularly the authentic ones), without them, simply we wouldn’t have anything to teach us about Islamic rituals, as seen in these two links:
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim

The only explanation I have for anyone who claims that he doesn’t care about Hadithes, is to hide the violence and killing practices of Muhammed.

We have been over this i have told you i have never made shihada so why do you now want to force belief in hadith on me??
You now suggest i am hiding violence because i don’t care about hadiths??
Seriously you asked me for my opinion, now you make accusation.

Its not my hadith, its authentic hadith from Sahih Muslim from the Islam prophet.:ehh:

You say WE MUSLIMS you say hadith is second half of Islamic religion I SAY YOUR HADITHS only based on your own statements

That is true, but that was BEFORE Adam commits the sin and sent down to earth, after that there is nothing to support that idea.
Actually read my post i said true man

Wrong feeling, I respect you opinion, I only asked for your opinion because I thought that you are lost like me between the two religions.
i am not lost and you don’t seem to me to be lost by your attitude only your contradictions

Exactly when “You & I” have done that?

It is of no value for me to be exact but you can go through your posts, your mum was turned away from hospital because people were of to pray, people have made legal prostitution under the guise of marriage and so on

What are the “things not of God”, could you please explain that more, since I’m considering Catholicism as my Christian denomination. as i said in my post this is unhealthy way. If you want to discern about Catholics pray with them. If you want to discern Catholicism get a catechism. For me belonging to a religion is not important, submitting to God is

No, I spoke from a Muslim prospective, personally I don’t agree with that. :nope:
if you say “we Muslims” you cant blame me for assuming you do, your words not mine

Currently I’m in a transition stage between the two, but at the end I have to be with one only, being over 30 years in Islam particularly in SA, its not easy to switch in a short time, I have to study the new faith well before making my decision.

Where is the proof of that?,
i only offered suggestion for understanding, the same as you offer your opinion. it is not something for me to prove.
Muhammed simply misunderstood the Holy Spirit with Mary.
same there is not proof.

No the Quran said Allah asked Jesus if he said that.
That was my point.

Thank you Steven.

I love you (sam) we are on the same side. Please don’t ask for my opinion if you don’t actually want to consider it with open mind.

Please don’t find me out of order i offer you this in kindness.
You are the original reason my God sent me to CA, it you i posted to as a newbee.
You seem to me to be in great pain over what men have done to and before you in the name of God. No surprise given what you have shared with me.
It may not be wise to choose a religion before you come to terms with your experience.
You tell me you are lost between 2 religions.
try to find God in both, He is near to you as the Muslims you love are.
Men hold religions and will always tell you why you need to be in the one they profess.
God is above them all, the men and the religions.
Seek relationship with Him before religion. Jesus (pbwh) did that and offers the same to us.
Peace and blessings to you and yours Brother

 

[Sam_777]

The authors of the Koran either mistook the common and traditional veneration of the Virgin for adoration or deliberately designated it as a form of worship so as to equate Christianity with paganism and thus justify the need for a religious correction and guidance through Islam.

I agree, it seems the problem that Allah in Quran is judging Jesus based on the minority of the Arabs in Mecca (assuming they were really worshipping Mary during that time), but how come he neglect the majority of Christians outside Arabian peninsula !!!

 

[Angelos]

I agree, it seems the problem that Allah in Quran is judging Jesus based on the minority of the Arabs in Mecca (assuming they were really worshipping Mary during that time), but how come he neglect the majority of Christians outside Arabian peninsula !!!

Mohammad was unable to see and know what the Christian Church at his time taught about Jesus and the Trinity. This was most probably because his so-called revelation was confined to the tribe of Quraish.

 

[Lance]

IMO Mohammid lied about most things, why should I expect him to be truthful about Jesus? I don’t believe Mohammid could tell the difference between God and Satin or if he could he decided to go with Satin since it was better for him personally here on earth. I believe he fell for the great deception.

 

[planten]

Satan the dare devil never came near our prophet Muhammad. he was mighty afraid of the prophet. But we see that Satan took Jesus on a ride for forty days and attempted to misguide Jesus. We Muslim consider that as a bad thing. We don’t know from where the church has got that bad idea of the Satan trying a man of God for forty days.

 

[Lance]

Satan the dare devil never came near our prophet Muhammad. he was mighty afraid of the prophet. But we see that Satan took Jesus on a ride for forty days and attempted to misguide Jesus. We Muslim consider that as a bad thing. We don’t know from where the church has got that bad idea of the Satan trying a man of God for forty days.

First of all, when you put your whole post in bold it looks as if you are shouting. Please don’t do that. You are entitled to your opinion of Mohammid and Jesus and I mine. The difference is that in America or any other western nation you are free to criticize Jesus and nothing will happen to you. If I lived in a Muslim country and criticized Mohammid, I would lose my head. IMO Mohammid was a pedophile, a war monger, a philanderer, a lier and all around bad guy who started a false religion. But that is just my own personal opinion. If you really believe Satan is afraid of Mohammid you must believe that Mohammid is greater than the angles since Satan was created as the greatest angle. Being greater than the angles would make him a god, is that what you believe?

 

[Angelos]

Satan the dare devil never came near our prophet Muhammad. he was mighty afraid of the prophet. But we see that Satan took Jesus on a ride for forty days and attempted to misguide Jesus. We Muslim consider that as a bad thing. We don’t know from where the church has got that bad idea of the Satan trying a man of God for forty days.

Planten, now I really doubt that you have and read the same Koran version as all Muslims! The following verse is from your very scripture, and it absolutely negates your contention:

Surah 22:52.
Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise.

According to Mohammad’s scribes, all of God’s revelations were tampered by Satan until Allah intervened to abolish the satanic verses and confirm his original message!

Your Satan can pretend to be Allah and give his personal verses to mislead mankind by fooling all the messengers. Very interesting!

 

[planten]

First of all, when you put your whole post in bold it looks as if you are shouting. Please don’t do that. You are entitled to your opinion of Mohammid and Jesus and I mine. The difference is that in America or any other western nation you are free to criticize Jesus and nothing will happen to you. If I lived in a Muslim country and criticized Mohammid, I would lose my head. IMO Mohammid was a pedophile, a war monger, a philanderer, a lier and all around bad guy who started a false religion. But that is just my own personal opinion. If you really believe Satan is afraid of Mohammid you must believe that Mohammid is greater than the angles since Satan was created as the greatest angle. Being greater than the angles would make him a god, is that what you believe?

**You have no knowledge of religion, specially no knowledge of Islam. You have abused Muhammad maximum in your post. I would say that what you said about Muhammad applies to Jesus only. It may be that you are not a christian. So you would not mind that Jesus be abused. So that you can kill two birds with one stone. So I will not say what I said above about Jesus being pedophile etc.

I would suggest that all thsoe words that you ahve used about Muhammad apply to you too in the first place, that is pedophile and liar and dishonest and you are a war monger and altogether a bad guy. All those good words in fact apply to you.

You also do not know that mankind is suprior to angels. All men are superior to angels. But you do not know that. So what kind of guy you are who has jumped into this discussion?**

 

[Booklover]

You have no knowledge of religion, specially no knowledge of Islam. You have abused Muhammad maximum in your post. I would say that what you said about Muhammad applies to Jesus only. It may be that you are not a christian. So you would not mind that Jesus be abused. So that you can kill two birds with one stone. So I will not say what I said above about Jesus being pedophile etc.

You claim to love Jesus and accuse him of being a pedophile, war monger, philanderer and liar?

Vickie

 

[Postmodern]

Booklover:
You claim to love Jesus and accuse him of being a pedophile, war monger, philanderer and liar?

Vickie

That was an odd way to phrase that. I’m not sure what he was saying