By what authority did Martin Luther proclaim sola scriptura? When did the Church lose its authority?Yes. Christ gave to the church teachers. Paul exhorts Timothy to immerse himself in the Scriptures that he might teach them.
Ezekiel 44 proves the perpetual virginity. We know Mary is sinless from Exodus 25:10 and Luke 1:28.Would you happen to have the passage for this or is this passage in Ezek that you have referred to?
Yes, because there’s just as much scriptural evidence for it as there is for Mary’s perpetual virginity, sinlessness and coronation.Doesn’t the catholic church believe the Holy Spirit is God?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3158170&postcount=356Huh? Where does it say she does all the things the Ark does?
What makes it impossible for them to be children of Joseph from a previous marriage and not Mary? Specifically. Is it a possibility? The passage does not say children of Mary, again the ONLY person ever anywhere in Scripture identified, specifically, as a child of Mary, is??? I can think of about a dozen other possibilities, children of Josephs dead brother, that Joseph and Mary took in as there own, as is required in Jewish Law, or cousins, or kinsmen closely related and living under the same roof.Here is a passage that you can look up that does demonstrate she did have other natural children. Its found in Matt 13:55-56 which says:
55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
56 “And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”
When “brothers and sisters” are used in connection with father or mother, then it does not mean cousins but actual blood brothers and sisters.
good question but i don’t want to derail this thread.EphelDuath;3162647]
Quote:
Yes. Christ gave to the church teachers. Paul exhorts Timothy to immerse himself in the Scriptures that he might teach them.
EphelDuath
By what authority did Martin Luther proclaim sola scriptura?
Here is Exodus 25:10—10 “They shall construct an ark of acacia wood two and a half cubits long, and one and a half cubits wide, and one and a half cubits high.Quote:justasking4
Would you happen to have the passage for this or is this passage in Ezek that you have referred to?
EphelDuath
Ezekiel 44 proves the perpetual virginity. We know Mary is sinless from Exodus 25:10 and Luke 1:28.
The coronation is another issue that needs to be looked at. Do you have a reference for it from Scripture?Quote:justasking4
Doesn’t the catholic church believe the Holy Spirit is God?
EphelDuath
Yes, because there’s just as much scriptural evidence for it as there is for Mary’s perpetual virginity, sinlessness and coronation.
Quote:justasking4
Huh? Where does it say she does all the things the Ark does?
And let’s not forgewt that Jesus entrusted care of His mother to John (the son of Zebedee)In some cases they could be both. James was a brother and an apostle after the resurrection.
Even the natural reading of the passages that link Jesus’ brothers and sisters tells us they are the offspring of Mary. Even Paul refers to James as the Lord’s brother. Secondly, it would be totally against God’s command for them not to have their own children. It would also be an intolerable situation for them as husband and wife not to engage in sexual relations.What makes it impossible for them to be children of Joseph from a previous marriage and not Mary? Specifically. Is it a possibility? The passage does not say children of Mary, again the ONLY person ever anywhere in Scripture identified, specifically, as a child of Mary, is??? I can think of about a dozen other possibilities, children of Josephs dead brother, that Joseph and Mary took in as there own, as is required in Jewish Law, or cousins, or kinsmen closely related and living under the same roof.
Hey, listen I agree she has other children, I am one of them! Every Christian is a brother of Jesus and we all call Mary our mother. That doesn’t mean we were born of her body.
It’s entirely relevant. You’re saying the Church doesn’t have the authority to make decrees about scripture, but you say this through the doctrine invented by someone 1500 years after the ascension of Christ.good question but i don’t want to derail this thread.
“Acacia” and “septim” mean incorruptible. The Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT that the apostles used to write the NT) renders it straight-up “incorruptible wood.” It proves her sinlessness, not perpetual virginity.Here is Exodus 25:10—10 “They shall construct an ark of acacia wood two and a half cubits long, and one and a half cubits wide, and one and a half cubits high. Are you sure you want to use this verse for her perpetual virginity?
It doesn’t mean highly favored. That’s a mistranslation. The word used means “forever graced” which only otherwise is used for God. Unless you’d like to imply that God is somewhat sinful.Luke 1:28 is also problematic since the phrase “highly favored” one has nothing to do with her perpetual virginity.
1 Kings 2:19. “So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right.”The coronation is another issue that needs to be looked at. Do you have a reference for it from Scripture?
Good questions. There could be a number of possiblities that does not require us to reject the idea that He had brothers and sisters in a real natural sense.And let’s not forgewt that Jesus entrusted care of His mother to John (the son of Zebedee)
If Mary had any other children, why wouldn’t they have been there with Mary at the crucifixion, and why didn’t Jesus entrust the care of Mary to one of them?
So, put yourself in her place, you’re soon to be married and one night you’re visited by an angel who tells you the Lord is with you, and you’re blessed among women. I think we can all understand her angst.Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
O.K. well, I’ll be married, have normal sex with Joe, we’ll conceive and have a son, great news it’s a gonna be a boy. His name is a little strange, God is with us? I might ask about the name.31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.
Wow, he shall be the king? The expected Davidic king? I have some serious questions about this!32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
Well, it’s the return of the old Jewish kingdom, and it will last forever, my son will be the great military king the Jewish people have long awaited. Boy do I have questions!!!33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Where are you getting the idea that “She never intended to have sex. She was a consecrated virgin”?Tom;3162749]
Under Jewish custom and Law (see the book of Numbers), if a man takes a woman who is under a vow into his house as a wife, while she is under that vow, and does not immediately prohibit the vow, he is to NEVER to have her break that vow. If Mary was not under a vow, why would Joseph not have sexual relations with Mary after he took her into his house? After all she was already pregnant. Why wait? Certainly it was his right. So why wouldn’t he have sex with his wife prior to the birth of Jesus? He didn’t, did he? Why?
A careful reading of Luke tells us why. She never intended to have sex. She was a consecrated virgin. She was under a vow of virginity.
What??? Wait a second!!! All of those things the angel said and she asks how she’s gonna become pregnant??? Because she’s a virgin??? Hello Mary!!! You’re engaged, I’m telling you, in the future you’re going to become pregnant, certainly you’re not going to be a virgin in the future when you’re married are you??? Oh, wait, maybe you are.Luke 1,34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?
Now he tells me!!! Why did he wait until I made a fool of myself by asking that silly question? Hmmm maybe God wanted me to ask that question so that you folks reading this, 2,000 years later, would see that I was under a vow of virginity, that I never intended to have sex after my marriage, that Joe understood that, maybe that’s why you had Mark tell the story from Joes perspective. But boy now I REALLY have questions, what do you mean “overshadow” that’s a term meaning impregnate!! The Holy Spirit of God is going to impregnate me???Luke 1,35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
After being told eight absolutely mind blowing things, knowing she was soon to have sex with Joe, she asks “how shall this be?” Explain this question to me. Why would a woman about to be married, expecting to have sex with her husband, be shocked that she would become pregnant? Of all the things Gabe told her, she didn’t understand how she would become pregnant? Doesn’t make any sense if she planned to have sex with Joe!Where are you getting the idea that “She never intended to have sex. She was a consecrated virgin”? Where in Scripture do we get the idea that a married couple would not have sex?
Your right in the particular circumstance in which the angel tells her that the Most High would overshadow her and conceive by the Holy Spirit. No sex before this since Jesus must be born of a virgin as the Scriptures predicted.Tom;3162834]
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Where are you getting the idea that “She never intended to have sex. She was a consecrated virgin”? Where in Scripture do we get the idea that a married couple would not have sex?
Tom
After being told eight absolutely mind blowing things, knowing she was soon to have sex with Joe, she asks “how shall this be?” Explain this question to me. Why would a woman about to be married, expecting to have sex with her husband, be shocked that she would become pregnant? Of all the things Gabe told her, she didn’t understand how she would become pregnant? Doesn’t make any sense if she planned to have sex with Joe!
Matthew’s Gospel proves those are NOT Jesus’ brothers. “There were also many women there, looking on from afar, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him; among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.” Matt 27:55-56.Here is a passage that you can look up that does demonstrate she did have other natural children. Its found in Matt 13:55-56 which says:
55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
56 “And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”
When “brothers and sisters” are used in connection with father or mother, then it does not mean cousins but actual blood brothers and sisters.
You aren’t addressing the big point here, that Mary apparantly has no plans to have sex with Joe!Your right in the particular circumstance in which the angel tells her that the Most High would overshadow her and conceive by the Holy Spirit. No sex before this since Jesus must be born of a virgin as the Scriptures predicted.
However there is nothing in this passage that supports the idea that she would not have sexual relations with her husband after the birth of Christ. To have sexual relations between husband and wife is something good and a god-given right.
Why would Mary ask the angel an absurd question, “How can this be since I do not know man?” if she planned to ever have sexual relations? The question would make no sense. Mary would know exactly how she would conceive, had she any intention to engage in sexual relations when married. Only becuase she was a consecrated virgin did she have to ask the angel how she could become pregnant.Your right in the particular circumstance in which the angel tells her that the Most High would overshadow her and conceive by the Holy Spirit. No sex before this since Jesus must be born of a virgin as the Scriptures predicted.
However there is nothing in this passage that supports the idea that she would not have sexual relations with her husband after the birth of Christ. To have sexual relations between husband and wife is something good and a god-given right.
O.K. let’s go over it one more time. This time keep in mind we know the whole story, Mary, while it was happening, did not. So read it as if you didn’t know what the angel was talking about, Mary certainly didn’t!Your right in the particular circumstance in which the angel tells her that the Most High would overshadow her and conceive by the Holy Spirit. No sex before this since Jesus must be born of a virgin as the Scriptures predicted.
However there is nothing in this passage that supports the idea that she would not have sexual relations with her husband after the birth of Christ. To have sexual relations between husband and wife is something good and a god-given right.
Up until this point in the conversation, the angel has told Mary several important things:Luke 1,26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. 31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.
I don’t understand what you mean here?Try:
newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm
O.K. let’s go over it one more time. This time keep in mind we know the whole story, Mary, while it was happening, did not. So read it as if you didn’t know what the angel was talking about, Mary certainly didn’t!
Up until this point in the conversation, the angel has told Mary several important things:
- You are “full of grace”.
- The Lord is with you.
- You are “blessed” among women.
- You shall become pregnant.
- Your child will be a boy.
- You shall name him Jesus (God dwells with us).
- He shall be great.
- He shall be called the Son of the most high. (a term reserved for royality).
- The Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father.
- He shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
- His kingdom will have no end.
There are some serious question I would ask, how about you?
You’re soon to be married, according to you, are planning on having normal sexual relations with your husband. Of these 11 things above, what one question would you not ask, if you’re planning on having sex with Joe?
Of course it makes sense since up to that time she was a virgin and did not know a man in a sexual way. Her question makes perfect sense in light of the context.Gamera;3163009]
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Your right in the particular circumstance in which the angel tells her that the Most High would overshadow her and conceive by the Holy Spirit. No sex before this since Jesus must be born of a virgin as the Scriptures predicted.
However there is nothing in this passage that supports the idea that she would not have sexual relations with her husband after the birth of Christ. To have sexual relations between husband and wife is something good and a god-given right.
Gamera
Why would Mary ask the angel an absurd question, “How can this be since I do not know man?” if she planned to ever have sexual relations? The question would make no sense.
You are reading into the passage what is not there. There is no mention of being a consecrated virgin for life.Gamera
Mary would know exactly how she would conceive, had she any intention to engage in sexual relations when married. Only becuase she was a consecrated virgin did she have to ask the angel how she could become pregnant.
Are there any in Scripture?Gamera
And no, marriage with a consecrated virgin was not unheard of in the ancient world, although it’s true that it was rare.
Of course it makes sense since up to that time she was a virgin and did not know a man in a sexual way. Her question makes perfect sense in light of the context.Gamera;3163009]
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Your right in the particular circumstance in which the angel tells her that the Most High would overshadow her and conceive by the Holy Spirit. No sex before this since Jesus must be born of a virgin as the Scriptures predicted.
However there is nothing in this passage that supports the idea that she would not have sexual relations with her husband after the birth of Christ. To have sexual relations between husband and wife is something good and a god-given right.
Gamera
Why would Mary ask the angel an absurd question, “How can this be since I do not know man?” if she planned to ever have sexual relations? The question would make no sense.
You are reading into the passage what is not there. There is no mention of being a consecrated virgin for life.Gamera
Mary would know exactly how she would conceive, had she any intention to engage in sexual relations when married. Only becuase she was a consecrated virgin did she have to ask the angel how she could become pregnant.
Are there any in Scripture?Gamera
And no, marriage with a consecrated virgin was not unheard of in the ancient world, although it’s true that it was rare.