Jesus had brothers??????

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I don’t understand what you mean here?
None of the things you list here forbid in any way for Joseph to have sexual relations with Mary. It would be the normal and blessed thing to do in a marriage.

The point is, Mary asked about #4. She didn’t expect to become pregnant, apparantly, ever. If she expected to have normal marital (read: sexual) relations with Joseph, she would not have asked about #4.

 

[Tom]

I don’t understand what you mean here?
None of the things you list here forbid in any way for Joseph to have sexual relations with Mary. It would be the normal and blessed thing to do in a marriage.

You didn’t answer the question. There about a dozen questions I would have asked, only one would make no sense. Which question would make no sense?

 

[justasking4]

The point is, Mary asked about #4. She didn’t expect to become pregnant, apparantly, ever. If she expected to have normal marital (read: sexual) relations with Joseph, she would not have asked about #4.

Here is his point #4–4. You shall become pregnant.
How do get from this to “She didn’t expect to become pregnant, apparantly, ever.”?

 

[justasking4]

You didn’t answer the question. There about a dozen questions I would have asked, only one would make no sense. Which question would make no sense?

Why don’t you tell me since you know what you are looking for then i can respond to it?

 

[Tom]

Of course it makes sense since up to that time she was a virgin and did not know a man in a sexual way. Her question makes perfect sense in light of the context.

No, absolutely not. She knew she was about to be married. The angel was telling her what would happen in the future. What big event was happening in her future? Her marriage. Exactly what in Scripture would have made her think the conception would not be in the context of her upcomming marriage? Would she naturally think an angel of God was suggesting she fornicate? Think about it! She was getting married, sure she’d have kids.

You are reading into the passage what is not there. There is no mention of being a consecrated virgin for life. Are there any in Scripture?

Read the book of Numbers. If Joseph accepted her into his house while under a vow of virginity, and the fact that Joseph didn’t have sexual relations with her prior to the birth strongly suggests that, he would NEVER be allowed to let her break her vow.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Here is his point #4–4. You shall become pregnant.
How do get from this to “She didn’t expect to become pregnant, apparantly, ever.”?

Yes- Mary asked how she would become pregnant. If she planned to have sex with Joseph after they got married, this question, “How can this be, since I know not man?” would never have been asked.

 

[Tom]

Why don’t you tell me since you know what you are looking for then i can respond to it?

You are soon to be married, you expect to have normal sexual relations with your husband, you told that:

1. You are “full of grace”.
2. The Lord is with you.
3. You are “blessed” among women.
4. You shall become pregnant.
5. Your child will be a boy.
6. You shall name him Jesus (God dwells with us).
7. He shall be great.
8. He shall be called the Son of the most high. (a term reserved for royality).
9. The Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father.
10. He shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
11. His kingdom will have no end.

Any questions?

 

[Tom]

You’re not gonna ask how you’re going to become pregnant?

 

[justasking4]

You are soon to be married, you expect to have normal sexual relations with your husband, you told that:

1. You are “full of grace”.
2. The Lord is with you.
3. You are “blessed” among women.
4. You shall become pregnant.
5. Your child will be a boy.
6. You shall name him Jesus (God dwells with us).
7. He shall be great.
8. He shall be called the Son of the most high. (a term reserved for royality).
9. The Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father.
10. He shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
11. His kingdom will have no end.

Any questions?

Yes i could ask all kinds of questions about these things but that would not lead me to think i could not have sexual relations with my wife. The other issue is Joseph. How was he as a man to satisfy a need all married have? Even Paul states the husband and wife are to satisfy each others sexual needs.

 

[davidv]

Yes i could ask all kinds of questions about these things but that would not lead me to think i could not have sexual relations with my wife. The other issue is Joseph. How was he as a man to satisfy a need all married have? Even Paul states the husband and wife are to satisfy each others sexual needs.

Sexual intercourse is not a “need”. It is only a “want”. One does not die if one does not have it.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Sexual intercourse is not a “need”. It is only a “want”. One does not die if one does not have it.

On a side note:

 

[Tom]

No sex before this since Jesus must be born of a virgin as the Scriptures predicted.

Prior to her question, she would have had no reason to suspect her pregnancy was anything other than a natural product of sexual relations with her husband. Why exactly would she naturally understand this child was to be born of a virgin? If she did think she was the virgin spoken of in Scripture, she would have asked why she would remain a virgin into her marriage.

However there is nothing in this passage that supports the idea that she would not have sexual relations with her husband after the birth of Christ. To have sexual relations between husband and wife is something good and a god-given right.

He would have accepted her into his house while she was under a vow of virginity, even if you think it was only until the birth, which there is no indication of from Scripture.
www.drbo.org:

Numbers 30, 11 If the wife in the house of her husband, hath bound herself by vow and by oath, 12 If her husband hear, and hold his peace, and doth not disallow the promise, she shall accomplish whatsoever she had promised. 13 But if forthwith he gainsay it, she shall not be bound by the promise: because her husband gainsaid it, and the Lord will be merciful to her. 14 If she vow and bind herself by oath, to afflict her soul by fasting, or abstinence from other things, it shall depend on the will of her husband, whether she shall do it, or not do it. 15 But if the husband hearing it hold his peace, and defer the declaring his mind till another day: whatsoever she had vowed and promised, she shall fulfill: because immediately as he heard it, he held his peace.
16 But if he gainsay it after that he knew it, he shall bear her iniquity. 17 These are the laws which the Lord appointed to Moses between the husband and the wife, between the father and the daughter that is as yet but a girl in age, or that abideth in her father’s house.

Once he accepted her into his house as his wife the vow was forever, unless of course these two who had just been visited by an angel just decided to break the Law, not likely.

 

[Tom]

Yes i could ask all kinds of questions about these things but that would not lead me to think i could not have sexual relations with my wife. The other issue is Joseph. How was he as a man to satisfy a need all married have? Even Paul states the husband and wife are to satisfy each others sexual needs.

You still aren’t answering the question, and I’m sure you see the question makes absolutely no sense to someone who plans on having sex with her husband!

 

[Tom]

You are soon to be married, you expect to have normal sexual relations with your husband, you told that:

1. You are “full of grace”.
2. The Lord is with you.
3. You are “blessed” among women.
4. You shall become pregnant.
5. Your child will be a boy.
6. You shall name him Jesus (God dwells with us).
7. He shall be great.
8. He shall be called the Son of the most high. (a term reserved for royality).
9. The Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father.
10. He shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
11. His kingdom will have no end.

Any questions?

How will I get pregnant? There’s the question. Now without going further in Scripture, don’t get ahead of yourself Mary, answer the question. How will you get pregnant?

 

[Tom]

I’m about to be married, an angel tells me I’m going to conceive a child, and I’m confused as to how this shall be. And you don’t see the problem here?
The angel tells me some absolutely mind numbing facts, but what really confuses me is how a married woman can possibly become pregnant.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I’m about to be married, an angel tells me I’m going to conceive a child, and I’m confused as to how this shall be. And you don’t see the problem here?
The angel tells me some absolutely mind numbing facts, but what really confuses me is how a married woman can possibly become pregnant.

You’re being sarcastic, right?

 

[Good_Fella]

Your right in the particular circumstance in which the angel tells her that the Most High would overshadow her and conceive by the Holy Spirit. No sex before this since Jesus must be born of a virgin as the Scriptures predicted.

Mary did not understand the angel’s promise to be a declaration of Jesus’ ontological deity. She was a Jewish maiden and, not unlike all Jews, she never expected a divine Messiah who would be born of a virgin. The Jews expected a messiah who would be only a man: a Son of Man, but greater than Moses, a descendant of the house of David. So Mary could not have had a miraculous birth in mind when the angel Gabriel announced that she would conceive and bear “the son of the Most High”. :nope: A fundamental article of faith in Judaism is belief in one God, and one God only who shares no partnership with other divine persons. And according to Judaic eschatology, the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies of Isaiah and Ezekiel. Isaiah is believed to have prophesied that the Messiah will be a paternal descendant of King David through Solomon. He will have a biological father. There is no “Son of the living God” in Judaism - and there never was in ancient time. The Holy Trinity is a Christian concept that developed in the Church since Pentecost. As a Jew, Mary had no idea of the Holy Trinity at the time of the Annunciation, and so she could not have expected to miraculously conceive and bear God’s divine Son. She expected a messiah of paternal lineage, and she knew that virgins do not conceive and bear the children of biological fathers. It is so clear why Mary asked the angel: “How shall this be, since I do not know man?” She had absolutely no intention of having relations with Joseph upon the consummation of their marriage. You see, Mary thought that the angel meant Joseph would be the father of the Messiah, since the Jews expected a messiah of paternal lineage. Finally, the Jews object to the Christian interpretation of Isaiah 7,14. They maintain that the virgin with child is a near term sign which does not refer to the Messiah at all. The virgin birth in Isaiah is only a symbol referring to the time of King Ahaz in the 8th century B.C… This symbol wasn’t identified with Jesus and Mary until after Pentecost in the Christian community. :yup:

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[justasking4]

Sexual intercourse is not a “need”. It is only a “want”. One does not die if one does not have it.

I agree in part. However, he would need some kind of sexual release as a man over the course of their marriage. The only wholesome and god-given way is to have sexual relations with Mary.

 

[justasking4]

Tom;3163278]Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
No sex before this since Jesus must be born of a virgin as the Scriptures predicted.
Tom
Prior to her question, she would have had no reason to suspect her pregnancy was anything other than a natural product of sexual relations with her husband. Why exactly would she naturally understand this child was to be born of a virgin? If she did think she was the virgin spoken of in Scripture, she would have asked why she would remain a virgin into her marriage.

The context indicates that she had no sexual relations with a man up to this point in time with the angel. Correct?

Where in the passage is there any indication she was to remain a virgin throughout the marriage? Where does she specifically vow this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
However there is nothing in this passage that supports the idea that she would not have sexual relations with her husband after the birth of Christ. To have sexual relations between husband and wife is something good and a god-given right.
Tom
He would have accepted her into his house while she was under a vow of virginity, even if you think it was only until the birth, which there is no indication of from Scripture.

I would agree that Joseph would not have engaged in sexual relations before Jesus was born. However after He was born there is no reason to think they did not resume normal sexual relations.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

The context indicates that she had no sexual relations with a man up to this point in time with the angel. Correct?

Where in the passage is there any indication she was to remain a virgin throughout the marriage? Where does she specifically vow this?

I would agree that Joseph would not have engaged in sexual relations before Jesus was born. However after He was born there is no reason to think they did not resume normal sexual relations.

You still don’t get it?!?

If MAry had expected to have relations with Joseph, she would not have asked the question she asked. Period. End of story. Her question only makes sense if she had no intention of having relations with Joseph. She asked that question, however. There is only on explanation- that she never intended to have relations with Joseph.

If you still don’t understand…

And as for that last question. it should be the other way around. If Mary had not intended to have relations with Joseph before the Annunciation, why would that change after Jesus was born?