Jesus in heaven

[chimera]

Another thread raised the q. of the whole book of Revelation. Could I raise one point? At Apocalypse 3:12 the heavenly Jesus says to John:
“… I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God … the name of my God…city of my God…out of the heavens from my God…”
Why does Jesus have a God? Evidently Jesus in heaven worships God in that temple. Are they unequal?

 

[chimera]

Excuse me, but I asked a question.

 

[DylanO]

According to Haydock’s Catholic Bible commentary under that verse it says:

From the words my God, the Socinians pretend that Christ is not the true God, as we may find in the disputes which Servetus had with Calvin. Calvin answered the Socinians, as all Catholics do, that Christ was both God and man: this and divers things were spoken of Christ as he was a man, but that many things in the Scriptures could not apply to him, unless he was also truly God. And by such places is clearly confuted the blasphemy and error of the Arians and Socinians. The argument concludes in the principles of the Catholics, who allow the authority of the Church in expounding the sense of the Scriptures; but the Calvinists, and all other pretended reformers, having shaken off that authority, and having allowed that the holy Scriptures are to be interpreted according to every man’s private judgment or spirit, this set Calvin and Servetus, every Calvinist and Socinians, upon the same level. (Witham)

This is all I can find on this. I hope it is of some help.

 

[chimera]

Thank you for taking the time to find that explanation. Letting the text explain itself without personal views, the Apocalypse says that Jesus had given his blood and he made a kingdom to his God and father. Rev.1:5, 6. So he was not then a man (around 96 AD when John was on Patmos), but in heaven.The first line of the book says “A revelation by Jesus Christ which God gave him”.
My question is about the temple described above ( post 1). That is more than just identifying 2 persons, it relates to worship of
“my God” by Jesus.The man was destroyed by death, and just the heavenly Jesus remains. Are God and Jesus unequal?

 

[BRB]

Are God and Jesus unequal?

Equal … yes. Jews always considered their sons the equal of the human father.

Think of the Trinity using water as an analogy. Water has a chemical makeup of H20. It can exist in 3 phases at the same time. Solid form (God the Father), liquid coating on surface of ice (Jesus), and the water vapor [H.S.] coming off of both the Father & Son phases of water.

Depending on STP (standard temp & pressure) … water can readily go back and forth between its 3 phases. Also… at just the right STP … H20 exist in all 3 phases at the same time.

That is why the Trinity represents themselves as Water in the Bible, in the Genesis Creation, and in many, many other examples found in the Bible.

Water is the most special molecule in the Universe. No life in this Universe lives w/o it. Earth is called the Water Planet by scientists. Man is 70 % water. Go 3 days w/o water in desert … you die.

Holy water, walking on water, rainbows, clouds, baptism, crossing the Jordan/Red Sea, visible spirit of God decended upon Jesus, cloud over the tabernacle (in Wilderness) , etc …

Life is all about water … since the Trinity is life.

 

[chimera]

Thanks. All the texts quoted have Jesus as being distinct from God, after he finished being a man of “liquid”. The temple specifies that his God is worshipped by Jesus , a heavenly spirit of the same nature as God. Could it be said that God worships Jesus in the temple of Jesus? That would go against the sense of all the scriptures.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Thanks. All the texts quoted have Jesus as being distinct from God, after he finished being a man of “liquid”. The temple specifies that his God is worshipped by Jesus , a heavenly spirit of the same nature as God. Could it be said that God worships Jesus in the temple of Jesus? That would go against the sense of all the scriptures.

How would God’s love and worship of Himself go against scripture?

 

[mercygate]

Thank you for taking the time to find that explanation. Letting the text explain itself without personal views, the Apocalypse says that Jesus had given his blood and he made a kingdom to his God and father. Rev.1:5, 6. So he was not then a man (around 96 AD when John was on Patmos), but in heaven.The first line of the book says “A revelation by Jesus Christ which God gave him”.
My question is about the temple described above ( post 1). That is more than just identifying 2 persons, it relates to worship of
“my God” by Jesus.The man was destroyed by death, and just the heavenly Jesus remains. Are God and Jesus unequal?

The man is not destroyed by death. Jesus Christ is true God and true man. He doesn’t stop being man in the Resurrection. That’s the whole point.

Revelation is heavily larded with figurative and allegorical language; it is perfectly reasonable for one Person of the Trinity to honor Another.

 

[chimera]

vern,
Jesus worships God. Can you think of any scripture that says that God worships Jesus?
mercy,
Why do you say that Jesus, whose blood was poured out completely, is a man today?
At 1 Cor. 15. 35,40,42-50 Paul says that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom. And if Jesus could be a man in heaven, could God then worship Jesus?

 

[vern_humphrey]

vern,
Jesus worships God. Can you think of any scripture that says that God worships Jesus?

Jesus, the Son, indeed worships the Father. And as a man, He worships God.

mercy,
Why do you say that Jesus, whose blood was poured out completely, is a man today?
At 1 Cor. 15. 35,40,42-50 Paul says that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom. And if Jesus could be a man in heaven, could God then worship Jesus?

Probably – God loves Himself.

 

[Nita]

In speaking of the relationship between the three Divine Persons, within the Triune Godhead, I don’t think we (Scripture or Catholic Doctrine) speak of them “worshipping” each other. Eg. The first Person (Father) worshipping the third (Holy Spirit), second (Son) worshipping the third…] We do speak of them loving each other.

Now, when we speak of Jesus, we are not speaking of the second Person of the Trinity in His Divine nature and relationships ONLY. Jesus is the name given to God (2nd Person) incarnate. He has a human nature also (body and soul). The purpose for the incarnation was to reconcile humanity with God, restore the proper relationship to God. The proper relationship is worship, love, obedience… This was accomplished for us by Jesus (God incarnate) in and through His human nature.

The Second Person of the Trinity remains united to His glorified body and soul (human nature) in heaven. When expressing Himself through that human nature it is entirely appropriate that worship of the Father and Holy Spirit would be part of that expression.

Nita

 

[chimera]

Are you saying that Paul and the apostles make no reference to the Father having a temple to his Son as his God? With all the scriptures that say the Son obeys the Father, is there any that says God obeys the Son?

 

[Nita]

Are you saying that Paul and the apostles make no reference to the Father having a temple to his Son as his God? With all the scriptures that say the Son obeys the Father, is there any that says God obeys the Son?

All those scriptures that say the Son obeys the Father are where the Son is speaking on earth as the incarnate Jesus - living as human nature is meant to live; living in a way we are to imitate.

I’m not sure what you mean by St. Paul saying the Father has "a temple to his Son as his God?. I’ll go back and read all your posts and any references you give, but it might be quicker if you could post the reference .

Nita

 

[mercygate]

vern,
Jesus worships God. Can you think of any scripture that says that God worships Jesus?
mercy,
Why do you say that Jesus, whose blood was poured out completely, is a man today?

John, chapters 20 and 21.
At 1 Cor. 15. 35,40,42-50 Paul says that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom. And if Jesus could be a man in heaven, could God then worship Jesus?
“flesh and blood” in this context refers to the same “flesh and blood” Jesus said had not revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Messiah. The heart concerned with “the flesh” is not concerned with things of the spirit.

Can you show me where Scripture refers to Jesus’ blood being poured out “completely”? Not that it would matter since the Resurrection body, while the same body as the body we have on earth, it is – quote Paul “changed.”

 

[jcrichton]

Another thread raised the q. of the whole book of Revelation. Could I raise one point? At Apocalypse 3:12 the heavenly Jesus says to John:
“… I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God … the name of my God…city of my God…out of the heavens from my God…”
Why does Jesus have a God? Evidently Jesus in heaven worships God in that temple. Are they unequal?

Hi!

There are some passages in the Holy Scriptures that are truly perplexing… that one happens to be one of them… what I can reason is that the Father is representative of Yahweh God the original Person of God that was revealed to Abraham… Jesus, as the Son, maintains this relationship with the Father. The Father is Jesus’ God because only the Person of Jesus was Incarnated into a human being.

If you read all of Apocalypse you will find very difficult passages if they are taken literaly and without room for God’s revelation:

• The Holy Spirit is never ever mentioned
• During the disclosure to the 7 Churches it is Jesus speaking but He is called the Spirit
• Jesus is the One Who holds the 7 Spirits of God
• He is the Lion
• He is the Lamb which seems to be Sacrificed
• He is the one resembling a man
• He is the One that is to Come, yet God is the One that is to Come
• He is, along with God, worshiped by the 4 living creatures and the 24 elders
• He is the only One that can access the Scrolls
• He is, along with God, the source of the River of the water of Life
• He is, along with God, the Light of the Heavenly City, the New Jerusalem
• He gives to those that Stand a new name that only they know
• The prayer of the saints are offered to Him and God
• He is seated on God’s Throne…
• He is the Alpha and the Omega…
• He is the King of kings
• He is the Lord of lords…
• He shares God’s servants…

I may have forgotten a thing or two… but if you reread Apocalypse you will find that your prayer requests cannot reach God the Father unless they reach God the Son.

Lastly, why is God allowing His servants to worship Jesus in His own presence without even the slightest correction ("…thou should worship the Lord your God, Only…"), why is God sharing His Glory?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[chimera]

Nita,
“All those scriptures that say the Son obeys the Father are where the Son is speaking on earth as the incarnate Jesus - living as human nature is meant to live; living in a way we are to imitate”.
However, there is no hint that before the heavenly Son came to earth, or after he returned to heaven, that God obeys the Son.

"I’m not sure what you mean by St. Paul saying the Father has "a temple to his Son as his God?. I’ll go back and read all your posts and any references you give, but it might be quicker if you could post the reference ".
I mean there is no such idea anywhere, in answer to Vern’s post that “probably” there is. Apocalypse says Jesus in heaven goes to the temple of his God, but not the other way around.

 

[Cleopas]

Chimera,

Just a point of clarification. Christ did not cease to be man when He ascended back to heaven. Thus, as a man, albeit the divine man, it is right for Him to worship and love God, the Father.

 

[chimera]

mercygate
“John, chapters 20 and 21.”
I’m not sure what it is you mean here, but John 20.17 says that Jesus goes to his God. At Rev. 3.12, John again writes of the God of Jesus, after Jesus returns to heaven.

"At 1 Cor. 15. 35,40,42-50 Paul says that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom. And if Jesus could be a man in heaven, could God then worship Jesus?
“flesh and blood” in this context refers to the same “flesh and blood” Jesus said had not revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Messiah. "
1.Cor. 45-50 specifically refers to Adam of dust, and to Jesus and apostles with spirit bodies.

"Can you show me where Scripture refers to Jesus’ blood being poured out “completely”? Not that it would matter since the Resurrection body, while the same body as the body we have on earth, it is – quote Paul “changed.”
Matt.26.28.

 

[chimera]

jcrichton;
Hi!
“what I can reason is that the Father is representative of Yahweh God the original Person of God that was revealed to Abraham… The Father is Jesus’ God because only the Person of Jesus was Incarnated into a human being.”
Are you saying that Jesus was co-equal, then became a man and less than before, and stayed a man in heaven as less than co-equal? Then Jesus as God the Son is less than God the God?

“If you read all of Apocalypse you will find very difficult passages if they are taken literaly and without room for God’s revelation:”
wow. do you want answers to all of this? ok.

• The Holy Spirit is never ever mentioned.
  Rev. 22.17
• During the disclosure to the 7 Churches it is Jesus speaking but He is called the Spirit.
  where?
• Jesus is the One Who holds the 7 Spirits of God.
  Perhaps you have described the correct relationship between Jesus, and his Father who gives the Spirit. No co-equality is hinted at, but distinct non-equality.
• He is the Lion.
  because,
• He is the Lamb which seems to be Sacrificed.
  when,
• He is the one resembling a man,
  and therefore God gave him authority to be the Lion of Judah, and King.
• He is the One that is to Come, yet God is the One that is to Come.
  Yes, both will come.
• He is, along with God, worshiped by the 4 living creatures and the 24 elders.
  where?
• He is the only One that can access the Scrolls.
  which came from God.
• He is, along with God, the source of the River of the water of Life.
  The 2 have thrones. The great king in Psalm 45.6 has his God as his throne.
• He is, along with God, the Light of the Heavenly City, the New Jerusalem.
  The glory of God lighted it, and its lamp (lesser light) is the Lamb.
  Rev.21.23.
• He gives to those that Stand a new name that only they know
• The prayer of the saints are offered to Him and God.
  The prayers are as bowls of incense, but where are they “offered to Jesus”?
• He is seated on God’s Throne…
  Solomon sat on the throne of God over Israel. 1 Chron. 28.5
• He is the Alpha and the Omega…
• He is the King of kings
• He is the Lord of lords…
• He shares God’s servants…

“I may have forgotten a thing or two… but if you reread Apocalypse you will find that your prayer requests cannot reach God the Father unless they reach God the Son.”
John 14.6, but does any verse have the expression “God the Son”?

Lastly, why is God allowing His servants to worship Jesus in His own presence without even the slightest correction ("…thou should worship the Lord your God, Only…"), why is God sharing His Glory?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[mercygate]

mercygate
“John, chapters 20 and 21.”

chimera:

I’m not sure what it is you mean here, but John 20.17 says that Jesus goes to his God. At Rev. 3.12, John again writes of the God of Jesus, after Jesus returns to heaven.

"At 1 Cor. 15. 35,40,42-50 Paul says that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom. And if Jesus could be a man in heaven, could God then worship Jesus?

“Flesh and blood” in this context refers to the same “flesh and blood” Jesus said had not revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Messiah. "

chimera:

1.Cor. 45-50 specifically refers to Adam of dust, and to Jesus and apostles with spirit bodies.

"Can you show me where Scripture refers to Jesus’ blood being poured out “completely”? Not that it would matter since the Resurrection body, while the same body as the body we have on earth, it is – quoting Paul – “changed.”

chimera:

Matt.26.28.

Mt. 26.28 just says “poured out”: no specification of total exsanguination.

But that’s off topic.

I Cor 15:45-50 speaks of natural and spiritual bodies; you seem to understand that a spiritual body must be a body without flesh and bones. Why?

How do you integrate the idea of an immaterial body with the Resurrection appearances in John and Luke, where Jesus points out that “a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have”?