Jesus in heaven

[jcrichton]

jcrichton;
Hi!
“what I can reason is that the Father is representative of Yahweh God the original Person of God that was revealed to Abraham… The Father is Jesus’ God because only the Person of Jesus was Incarnated into a human being.”
Are you saying that Jesus was co-equal, then became a man and less than before, and stayed a man in heaven as less than co-equal? Then Jesus as God the Son is less than God the God?

Hi!

I was attempting to give you a “reason” (in the sence of a proposition on how it could be seen); I do not believe that there’s a difference betwen the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is like saying that “I and my self and me” have different values–one being more important or more valuable then the other two.

You are welcomed to believe that there is. I cannot change your ideology. But here’s what Yahweh God says about Himself:

You yourselves are my witnesses–it is Yahweh who speaks–my servants whom I have chosen, that men may know and believe me and understand that it is I. No god was formed before me, nor will be after me. I, I am Yahweh, there is no other savior but me. (Isaiah 43:10-11)

Same John which you quote attests that it was revealed to him (know that he does not use my term) that:

In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God. (St. John 1:1)

And Peter reveals that:

“Ananias,” Peter said, "how could Satan so possess you that you have lied to the Holy Spirit… It is not to men that you have lied but to God. (Acts 5:3-4)

These three different passages speak of God: Yahweh, the Father, is the Only God; Yeshua, the Son, is the Only God; the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son, is the Only God.

Rev. 22.17

It does not say Holy Spirit, but Spirit.

where?

2:7, 11, 17, 29, 3:6, 13, and 22 …listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches…

Perhaps you have described the correct relationship between Jesus, and his Father who gives the Spirit. No co-equality is hinted at, but distinct non-equality.

You are missing it completely; Jesus is not an usher or God’s guy-Friday; He is the One who possess the Spirit of God!

therefore God gave him authority to be the Lion of Judah, and King.

Again, you are missing it–Jesus is no longer the Lamb yet He is still recognized as the Lamb; but not just any lamb, but the Lamb that was Crucified! Simultaneously, He is recognized as the Man because God took the form of a man in order to bring us Salvation. And He is the King and the Lion of Israel because Yahweh God is One and in Him there is no change: it is revealed that Jesus is that same King (1 Samuel 8:7) and that same Lion that was the Father (Hosea 5:14, 11:10)–just as He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

Yes, both will come.

No, Yahweh already came: Malachi 3:1 and Matthew 11:10.

He is, along with God, worshiped

.
where? Read Chp 5–spc vs 8, 12, 13, 14.

* He is the only One that can access the Scrolls.

which came from God. …missing it! None but the Lamb can open it! (5:3)

The 2 have thrones. The great king in Psalm 45.6 has his God as his throne.

Show me, in Scriptures, where the River of Life has two separate and distinct sources!

The glory of God lighted it, and its lamp (lesser light) is the Lamb.
Rev.21.23.

But do you not contradict yourself, who is the Glory of God but Christ Jesus Himself? (Hebrews 1:1-14)

The prayers are as bowls of incense, but where are they “offered to Jesus”?

Read Chp 5 vs 8-10–the 4 creatures and the 24 elders are addressing the Lamb not the Father.

Solomon sat on the throne of God over Israel. 1 Chron. 28.5

No. He sat on the temporal throne which was the type of the Heavenly Throne; that’s why when Solomon worshiped the gods of his many wives and lovers Yahweh deposed him and his seed. (1 Kings 11:11-13)

John 14.6, but does any verse have the expression “God the Son”?

Now you are just grasping… Scriptures tells us that we must accept and believe in both the Father and the Son; if the Father is complete why do you suppose that we must abide in the Son as well? (1 Jn 2:22-24, 2 Jn 1:9 and 1 Jn 5:20; compare with John 14:15-17, 23)

It’s not too late; Thomas doubted till he stopped reaching and he humbled himself to Jesus and pronounced: “My Lord and my God.” (Jn 20:28)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[chimera]

"Mt. 26.28 just says “poured out”: no specification of total exsanguination. "
Christ’s sacrifice gave his life. Jews did not rake back part of their sacrifice to take home, and presumably Jesus was not half-alive in the tomb with residual blood in hibernation. Sorry to be brutal, but the sacrifice was brutal and total, because of his love.

“I Cor 15:45-50 speaks of natural and spiritual bodies; you seem to understand that a spiritual body must be a body without flesh and bones. Why?”
Because it contrasts “dust / earthy/ flesh and blood (v.50) / soma psychikon” with " heavenly/ pneumatikon". The spirit and breath (pneumatic) are not flesh.

'How do you integrate the idea of an immaterial body with the Resurrection appearances in John and Luke, where Jesus points out that “a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have”?"
He was there a man in flesh until transfiguration as “o pneuma”.

 

[chimera]

postscript:
If you are correct, does not that weaken the case for co-equality between God and the man Jesus? You are not saying that the Father is constrained to flesh and bones, are you? And the Holy Spirit too?

 

[chimera]

" I, I am Yahweh, there is no other savior but me."
Thus Jesus in the days of his flesh petitioned that One who was able to save him from death._ Heb. 5.7. God is the salvation of his anointed one_ Ps. 28.8. This enabled Christ’s being a savior.
Jesus is not named Yahweh, but “Jehoshua” means “Yahweh is salvation” and thus the 2 are in union. (Did 2/3 of the Trinity save the dead 1/3 ?)
‘In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God. (St. John 1:1)’
/ kai theos en o logos / “the Word” has the definite article, but “god” hasn’t, hence: the Word was a god. “Son of God” distinguishes between Jesus and Almighty God.

And Peter reveals that:
“Ananias,” Peter said, “how could Satan so possess you that you have lied to the Holy Spirit… It is not to men that you have lied but to God. (Acts 5:3-4)”
Peter contrasted Satan against Holy Spirit, and also men against God. Ananias in fact lied to men, to the Holy Spirit and to God (and indeed to Satan). No scripture mentions “God the Holy Spirit”, but the Spirit is God’s property and unequally is subject to God.

“You are missing it completely; Jesus is not an usher or God’s guy-Friday; He is the One who possess the Spirit of God!”
Yes, God provides the Spirit to His Son. Certainly the Spirit is obedient to instructions from above.

" it is revealed that Jesus is that same King (1 Samuel 8:7) and that same Lion that was the Father (Hosea 5:14, 11:10)–just as He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End."

" No, Yahweh already came: Malachi 3:1 "
Are you becoming weary? It says God’s messenger will come.
Jesus life on earth is not the events of Apocalypse you quoted.
“Read Chp 5–spc vs 8, 12, 13, 14.”
The bowls hold prayers, but are not said to be given to Jesus.
There is One on the throne, and there is the Lamb.

“…missing it! None but the Lamb can open it! (5:3)”
So someone else wrote it for only the Lamb to read the information.

“Show me, in Scriptures, where the River of Life has two separate and distinct sources!”
As quoted, God is the throne of Jesus, who had been sitting at the right hand of God. The river has that one source.

“But do you not contradict yourself, who is the Glory of God but Christ Jesus Himself? (Hebrews 1:1-14)”
Heb. 1.3 He is the reflection of his glory. 1.8 God is your throne.
1.13 Sit at my right hand.
“No. He sat on the temporal throne which was the type of the Heavenly Throne; that’s why when Solomon worshiped the gods of his many wives and lovers Yahweh deposed him and his seed. (1 Kings 11:11-13)”
Well, God called it the throne of God. He owned it.

" Scriptures tells us that we must accept and believe in both the Father and the Son; if the Father is complete why do you suppose that we must abide in the Son as well? (1 Jn 2:22-24, 2 Jn 1:9 and 1 Jn 5:20; compare with John 14:15-17, 23)"
God does not depend on the Son to make Him complete, it is us sinners who need the Lord as The Way to God.

“It’s not too late; Thomas doubted till he stopped reaching and he humbled himself to Jesus and pronounced: “My Lord and my God.” (Jn 20:28)”

 

[mercygate]

"Mt. 26.28 just says “poured out”: no specification of total exsanguination. "
Christ’s sacrifice gave his life. Jews did not rake back part of their sacrifice to take home, and presumably Jesus was not half-alive in the tomb with residual blood in hibernation. Sorry to be brutal, but the sacrifice was brutal and total, because of his love.

“I Cor 15:45-50 speaks of natural and spiritual bodies; you seem to understand that a spiritual body must be a body without flesh and bones. Why?”
Because it contrasts “dust / earthy/ flesh and blood (v.50) / soma psychikon” with " heavenly/ pneumatikon". The spirit and breath (pneumatic) are not flesh.

'How do you integrate the idea of an immaterial body with the Resurrection appearances in John and Luke, where Jesus points out that “a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have”?"
He was there a man in flesh until transfiguration as “o pneuma”.

Transfiguration? I am referring to the Resurrection appearances in John (and the other Gospels).

 

[mercygate]

postscript:
If you are correct, does not that weaken the case for co-equality between God and the man Jesus? You are not saying that the Father is constrained to flesh and bones, are you? And the Holy Spirit too?

Of course not. (That is, if you are addressing me.)

How about using the “quote” feature?

 

[jcrichton]

" I, I am Yahweh, there is no other savior but me."
Thus Jesus in the days of his flesh petitioned that One who was able to save him from death._ Heb. 5.7. God is the salvation of his anointed one_ Ps. 28.8. This enabled Christ’s being a savior.
Jesus is not named Yahweh, but “Jehoshua” means “Yahweh is salvation” and thus the 2 are in union. (Did 2/3 of the Trinity save the dead 1/3 ?)
‘In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God. (St. John 1:1)’
/ kai theos en o logos / “the Word” has the definite article, but “god” hasn’t, hence: the Word was a god. “Son of God” distinguishes between Jesus and Almighty God.

So when Yahweh God tells you that there never existed any God but Him and that after Him there’s no other god… that means nothing to you; you can contradict God by creating a little god that existed from the beginning with Him; not being One with Him but one outside of Him?

And Peter reveals that:
“Ananias,” Peter said, “how could Satan so possess you that you have lied to the Holy Spirit… It is not to men that you have lied but to God. (Acts 5:3-4)”
Peter contrasted Satan against Holy Spirit, and also men against God. Ananias in fact lied to men, to the Holy Spirit and to God (and indeed to Satan). No scripture mentions “God the Holy Spirit”, but the Spirit is God’s property and unequally is subject to God.

Tell the truth, you are not a Christian, right? Your theology sound very much as that of the Jehovah Witnesses–I do not think that it is beneficial for anyone to continue this exchange as you will constantly come up with specialized theology to exclude Christian theology.

" No, Yahweh already came: Malachi 3:1 "
Are you becoming weary? It says God’s messenger will come.

Good News Bible:
The Lord Almighty answers, “I will send my messenger to prepare the way for me. The the Lord you are looking for will suddenly come to his Temple. The messenger you long to see will come and proclaim my covenant.”

The Jerusalem Bible:
Look, I am going to send my messenger to prepare a way before me. And the Lord you are seeking will suddenly enter his Temple; and the angel of the covenant whom you are longing for, yes, he is coming, says Yahweh Sabaoth.

The Holy Bible: New International Version:
See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his Temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come.

Jesus life on earth is not the events of Apocalypse you quoted.
“Read Chp 5–spc vs 8, 12, 13, 14.”
The bowls hold prayers, but are not said to be given to Jesus.
There is One on the throne, and there is the Lamb.

I cannot help you understand if you refuse the Holy Scriptures.

" Scriptures tells us that we must accept and believe in both the Father and the Son; if the Father is complete why do you suppose that we must abide in the Son as well? (1 Jn 2:22-24, 2 Jn 1:9 and 1 Jn 5:20; compare with John 14:15-17, 23)"

“It’s not too late; Thomas doubted till he stopped reaching and he humbled himself to Jesus and pronounced: “My Lord and my God.” (Jn 20:28)”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[chimera]

“So when Yahweh God tells you that there never existed any God but Him and that after Him there’s no other god… that means nothing to you; you can contradict God by creating a little god that existed from the beginning with Him; not being One with Him but one outside of Him?”
In the next verse in Isaiah 44, God is referring to gods of carved and molten images. Jesus said Satan is the god of this world. _2 Cor. 4.4. Those opponents are powerless.

Peter and Ananias. Holy Spirit and God are spoken of. Is that proof of 1 identity and co-equality?

Good News Bible:
The Lord Almighty answers, “I will send my messenger to prepare the way for me. The the Lord you are looking for will suddenly come to his Temple. The messenger you long to see will come and proclaim my covenant.”

"The Jerusalem Bible:
Look, I am going to send my messenger to prepare a way before me. And the Lord you are seeking will suddenly enter his Temple; and the angel of the covenant whom you are longing for, yes, he is coming, says Yahweh Sabaoth.

The Holy Bible: New International Version:
See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his Temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come.
I cannot help you understand if you refuse the Holy Scriptures."
God sends his messenger. That’s the opposite of Trinity. What are you trying to say?

 

[Jimdandy]

Would it be easier to be told that God became Man, His human Body is killed, then He resurrected Himself and now gives man a way to share in his glorified Body by partaking of the Holy Eucharist?
We were made in the image and likeness of God- ie: we are spirit and flesh, capable (with the Grace of God) of being united to God and to others(the communion of saints).
It makes more sense when one describes God in His 3 equal persons-each preforming a particular task-all always present together-where One at a time seems to be more in the forefront in a particular instance so to say.

Really-it is just much easier to grasp ( because God Himself will infuse the knowledge) if one would just love God with all one’s heart,love your neighbor as one’s self,accept and follow the 10 commandments, live virtuously and strive to always have the behaviors of the beatitudes.
[Ask for the guidance of God as one reads the scripture-the answers lie within yourself as God reveals Himself]

God rewards for the effort not the results-for one is nothing without Him and with God, nothing is impossible.

 

[jcrichton]

“So when Yahweh God tells you that there never existed any God but Him and that after Him there’s no other god… that means nothing to you; you can contradict God by creating a little god that existed from the beginning with Him; not being One with Him but one outside of Him?”
In the next verse in Isaiah 44, God is referring to gods of carved and molten images. Jesus said Satan is the god of this world. _2 Cor. 4.4. Those opponents are powerless.

Peter and Ananias. Holy Spirit and God are spoken of. Is that proof of 1 identity and co-equality?

Good News Bible:
The Lord Almighty answers, “I will send my messenger to prepare the way for me. The the Lord you are looking for will suddenly come to his Temple. The messenger you long to see will come and proclaim my covenant.”

"The Jerusalem Bible:
Look, I am going to send my messenger to prepare a way before me. And the Lord you are seeking will suddenly enter his Temple; and the angel of the covenant whom you are longing for, yes, he is coming, says Yahweh Sabaoth.

The Holy Bible: New International Version:
See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his Temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come.
I cannot help you understand if you refuse the Holy Scriptures."
God sends his messenger. That’s the opposite of Trinity. What are you trying to say?Faith is not something that others can convince you to have… either you believe or you do not.

I can only show you the Holy Scriptures, you must determine for yourself if you accept them or not.

Simply posting more or the same Scriptures while you continue to interpret what you will gains us nothing.

Consider that there is only One God and He has stated that He will not share His Glory (Power, Authority, Might, Omnipotence) with others. Consider too that Jesus explicitly tells you that He and the Father are One; that He is (exists) in the Father and the Father is in Him. Finally, consider the various Scriptures that explicitly state that none can serve God but through Jesus and that none can be saved but through Jesus and that none can go to the Father but through Jesus.

If you read through the entire Bible and you cannot humble yourself to the Word, what do you think I can do for you with simple argumentation?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[chimera]

j,
“Simply posting more or the same Scriptures while you continue to interpret what you will gains us nothing.”
I quoted your texts about the messenger because I was asking you what are you saying? I ask that again.

“Consider that there is only One God and He has stated that He will not share His Glory (Power, Authority, Might, Omnipotence) with others. Consider too that Jesus explicitly tells you that He and the Father are One; that He is (exists) in the Father and the Father is in Him.”
In that section of Jhn 17, Jesus is saying that the apostles and all believers are one with himself and God. John wrote those simple words, not me.

 

[jcrichton]

j,
“Simply posting more or the same Scriptures while you continue to interpret what you will gains us nothing.”
I quoted your texts about the messenger because I was asking you what are you saying? I ask that again.

Hi!

I am so used to repeating Scriptures to people who refuse to read them that when a similar situation arises I reason that it is more of the same… I apologize for not recognizing that you were actually asking me to clarify the issue:

When we read the highlighted text we find that Yahweh God is speaking about Himself as the One sending the messenger; that He Himself will come to the Temple; that the messenger He is sending will come to the Temple; and that He as the Lord (Messiah) which Israel is awaiting will come to the Temple.

Jesus clarifies and obscures this when He purposely changes the messege just a little:

The Lord Almighty answers, “I will send my messenger to prepare the way for me. The the Lord you are looking for will suddenly come to his Temple. The messenger you long to see will come and proclaim my covenant.” (Malachi 3:1)

Compare with St. Matthew 11:10
For John is the one of whom scriptures says: ‘God said, I will send my messenger ahead of you to open the way for you.’ (Good News)

Though both passages speak of John the Baptist as the messenger, in Malachi Yahweh God applies the prophecy to Himself, while, in Matthew, Jesus applies it to Himself.

In the new spiritual economy Yahweh God is the Immanuel in the Person of Jesus, the Word Incarnate. So while the prophecy is fulfilled, the Father makes His visitation through the Son (“the Father and I are One” “the Father is in Me and I am in the Father”).

“Consider that there is only One God and He has stated that He will not share His Glory (Power, Authority, Might, Omnipotence) with others. Consider too that Jesus explicitly tells you that He and the Father are One; that He is (exists) in the Father and the Father is in Him.”
In that section of Jhn 17, Jesus is saying that the apostles and all believers are one with himself and God. John wrote those simple words, not me.

If we believe the Word of God (God is not a man that would lie) then we must take His Word as His Bond with us. So when He states that before Him no other god existed (he is not speaking of false gods as Satan, pharaoh and other machinations of man), He is speaking of His Authority and Divinity. He attests that with Him there is no god and that after Him no god was ever created. He also states that outside of Him there is no god.

This must be completely clear to us that Yahweh God is the Only God.

When He expresses that He will not share His Glory with others, God is stating that Only He is God and Only He is to be Worshiped and Obeyed. He will not allow any other entity to receive His Glory nor to possess what it is His.

When it is revealed that the Word existed from the beginning, that the Word was with God, and that the Word is God we can reject God’s revelation in light of the previous revelations (One God; no sharing His Glory…) or we can search the Holy Scriptures to find other references that would bring to light everything that is revealed in St. John 1:1.

The call that you have referenced is Jesus’ call to us to be one as He and the Father are One. But this is not a metaphore or a unison of mind or thought. It is that same ancient call to be “perfect” as God is Perfect. It is God’s call to us to unite in His Spirit (“I leave you Peace, my Peace I give you,” “Love one another,” “be one…”) The Holy Spriti unites us to each other and to God; but we must first abide in Jesus (Jn 15); we must love Him; to love Him is to obey His Commandment. If we love Him the Holy Spirit will come to us and make His abode in us; but not only that… the Father would Join Jesus and they two would abide in us! (Jn 14) That’s that perfect union that Jesus is calling us to (One God, One Lord, One Spirit, One Baptism, One Faith, One Body–Ephesians 4:1-13; 1 Corinthians 12:3-13; Ephesians 2:18); it is as a jigsaw puzzle: all the particulars must come together in order to complete the scene!

If I am still confusing, perhaps it would be better to take one passage at a time and to use concordance in order to expand on that one point through the various passages that are directly related to the main argument.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gara3987]

Another thread raised the q. of the whole book of Revelation. Could I raise one point? At Apocalypse 3:12 the heavenly Jesus says to John:
“… I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God … the name of my God…city of my God…out of the heavens from my God…”
Why does Jesus have a God? Evidently Jesus in heaven worships God in that temple. Are they unequal?

He that shall overcome, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; and he shall go out no more; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and my new name. Apoc. 3, 12]

Our Lord Jesus will always Glorify His Father, He (Jesus) was the possession, the property, and the treasure of the Father without possibility of separation, because Father and Son are One, of the same substance and Divinity with the Holy Ghost; and also as to his humanity, the Father possessed the Son; because He himself knew and decreed the plenitude of grace and glory, which He was to bestow upon it at the moment of its creation and its hypostatical union. Refer to [Proverbs 8, 22].

Outside of that I wanted to know if anyone knows what the “city of my God, & the new Jerusalem” is?

Whats interesting is the City of God and the New Jerusalem that Saint John was talking about is Our Blessed Mother.

Refer to Apoc. 21, 1-2:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.

2 And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

“I saw,” say the Evangelist, “a new heaven and a new earth.” He speaks of the creation of Mary by the hand of the Almighty and the formation of that material, from which the most holy human nature of the Word originated. With great propriety can that divinely human nature and the virginal womb, where and from which the Word was formed, be called a new heaven, God began to dwell in a new way (Jerem. 31, 21), different from that in which He had dwelt before in the old heaven and in any creatures.

He saw also a new earth; for the old earth was stained and laden with the guilt of sin and the reprobation; but the holy and blessed earth of most holy Mary was a new earth without the fault or the malediction of Adam; and it was so new, that since the creation of the first earth none other was seen until the creation of the most holy Mary. It was so new and free from the malediction of the old earth that in this blessed earth were renewed all the rest of the children of Adam. For on account of the blessed earth of Mary and through it, and in it, the earthly material of Adam was beginning to be blessed, renewed and vivified, having until then remained cursed and grown old in malediction. All was renewed in most holy Mary and in her innocence; and therefore the Evangelist, seeing that in Her this renovation of the human and earthly elements took its rise, says that in Mary conceived without sin he saw a new heaven and a new earth. He continues:

“For the first heaven and the first earth were gone.” It naturally followed that as soon as the new earth and new heaven of Mary and her Son the Godman appeared in the world, the old heaven and the earth, grown old by the sin-tarnished human and earthly matter, should disappear. There was now a new heaven for the Divinity in that human being, which, being preserved from sin, could furnish a new habitation to God through the hypostatic union of the person of the Word. Already the first heaven ceased to exist, that one which God had created in Adam and which had become deficient and unfit for the indwelling of a God. This disappeared and for it was substituted the other heaven in the coming of Mary. Then also arose the new heaven of glory for the human beings, not inasmuch as the empyrean heaven was removed, but in so far as from now on there would not be wanting the presence of men therein, who had been excluded for so many ages. In this respect it ceased to be the old heaven and it became a new one through the merits of Christ, now beginning to shine forth in the aurora of grace, most holy Mary, his Mother. Thus vanished the first heaven and the first earth, which until then was without hope of remedy. “And the sea was no more.” For the sea of abominations and sin, which had flooded the world and destroyed the earth of our being, ceased to exist with the coming of most holy Mary and of Christ; for the sea of his blood super abounded, overwhelming the sea of sin in such an abundance, that no amount of guilt could prevail against it. If the mortals would only approach this infinite sea of the divine mercy and merits of Jesus Christ our Lord, all the sins of the world would cease to exist, since the Lamb of God came to undo them and take them away.

“And I, John, saw the holy city and the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” As all these mysteries had their beginning in most holy Mary, and were founded in Her, the Evangelist says, that he saw the holy city Jerusalem, for under this figure he speaks of Her. To Him was given to see Her, in order that he might value so much more highly and watch with befitting solicitude over the Treasure, which was confided to his care at the foot of the Cross. And although nothing could ever fill up the void caused by the absence of her Son, yet it was befitting that saint John should be enlightened as to the dignity of the office, which he was to assume, namely, that of a substitute for her natural Son.

Ven. Mary of Agreda

 

[chimera]

j,
Sorry, my old pc won’t quote in boxes.
“The Lord Almighty answers, “I will send my messenger to prepare the way for me. The the Lord you are looking for will suddenly come to his Temple. The messenger you long to see will come and proclaim my covenant.” (Malachi 3:1)
Other translations have the last section as “…the messenger of the covenant” . In any case, the messenger John did not make the New Covenant. That was Jesus. Lord Almighty God as messenger-sender has the Lord Jesus proclaim God’s covenant.
" So when He states that before Him no other god existed (he is not speaking of false gods as Satan, pharaoh and other machinations of man), He is speaking of His Authority and Divinity.”
After Isaiah 10.6, the rest of that chapter is God’s description of false gods. Jesus spoke with one of them, and called him “god of this world”.
“He attests that with Him there is no god and that after Him no god was ever created. He also states that outside of Him there is no god.”
Logically, God must mean that the existant false gods are as nothing. “Who, as I, shall call?” “Who is there like me?” This is against co-equality and co-eternity, and fits with Jesus being in the heavenly “temple of my God”.

“This must be completely clear to us that Yahweh God is the Only God. When He expresses that He will not share His Glory with others, God is stating that Only He is God and Only He is to be Worshiped and Obeyed. He will not allow any other entity to receive His Glory nor to possess what it is His.”
It’s strange how similar our views are.

“…that the Word is God …everything that is revealed in St. John 1:1.”
However, /theos en o logos/ means “The Word was a god.”
Thus 2 other gods, Jesus and Satan, exist. Jesus does not claim to be as God, but Satan does claim that and so will be destroyed.
“The call that you have referenced is Jesus’ call to us to be one as He and the Father are One. But this is not a metaphore or a unison of mind or thought. It is that same ancient call to be “perfect” as God is Perfect…etc…”
Yes, I agree.But this is the text you used to prove the Trinity. If so, then humans are in it. ?

 

[chimera]

Gara,
Thanks for that. I’m trying to imagine Jesus marrying his Mum. It’s not easy.

 

[jcrichton]

j,
Sorry, my old pc won’t quote in boxes.
"The Lord Almighty answers, “I will send my messenger to prepare the way for me. The the Lord you are looking for will suddenly come to his Temple. The messenger you long to see will come and proclaim my covenant.” (Malachi 3:1)
Other translations have the last section as “…the messenger of the covenant” . In any case, the messenger John did not make the New Covenant. That was Jesus. Lord Almighty God as messenger-sender has the Lord Jesus proclaim God’s covenant.

The problem is that John the Baptist did come and it is he who is the messenger not Christ Jesus; you are mistaking two different people with the same task: Jesus is never a messenger! Just look at His revelations which include “…I have been with you such a long time and you do not know me?” “He (the other Paraclete) will tell you what He’s heard, everything that He has belongs to Me because everything that the Father Has is Mine…” (this is paraphrased) Which servant of God can claim Authority and Power?

" So when He states that before Him no other god existed (he is not speaking of false gods as Satan, pharaoh and other machinations of man), He is speaking of His Authority and Divinity."
After Isaiah 10.6, the rest of that chapter is God’s description of false gods. Jesus spoke with one of them, and called him “god of this world”.
“He attests that with Him there is no god and that after Him no god was ever created. He also states that outside of Him there is no god.”
Logically, God must mean that the existant false gods are as nothing. “Who, as I, shall call?” “Who is there like me?” This is against co-equality and co-eternity, and fits with Jesus being in the heavenly “temple of my God”.

Except that when Scriptures speak of those who are not gods because they have eyes, ears… cannot see, hear, eat, walk… Scriptures are calling them gods–this of course does not mean that Yahweh God was inferring that they are gods but, rather, that they are not! Jesus is never a representative of false gods! Please open your heart and mind or you will never find the Truth.

“This must be completely clear to us that Yahweh God is the Only God. When He expresses that He will not share His Glory with others, God is stating that Only He is God and Only He is to be Worshiped and Obeyed. He will not allow any other entity to receive His Glory nor to possess what it is His.”
It’s strange how similar our views are.

…the difference is that you need to deny Christ in order to accept God as Almighty when Scriptures tell you that to deny the Son is to deny the Father: 1 Jn 2:22, 23, 24; 2 Jn 1:9.

“…that the Word is God …everything that is revealed in St. John 1:1.”
However, /theos en o logos/ means “The Word was a god.”
Thus 2 other gods, Jesus and Satan, exist. Jesus does not claim to be as God, but Satan does claim that and so will be destroyed.
“The call that you have referenced is Jesus’ call to us to be one as He and the Father are One. But this is not a metaphore or a unison of mind or thought. It is that same ancient call to be “perfect” as God is Perfect…etc…”
Yes, I agree.But this is the text you used to prove the Trinity. If so, then humans are in it. ?

I am not a linguist so I will not argue the value of Greek or Hebrew; but to stop at verse 1 you are robbing yourself of understanding; compare John 1:1 with the rest of that chapter: the Word is the Light; the Word created everything that exists; the Word gave the power to become children (sons) of God to those who believe in Him… and there are so many more Scriptural passages that support the fact that Jesus is God. The problem lies in Faith (reread John 14 through 16, paying attention to the messege not a preconceived notion that causes you to reject Jesus as God).

Consider this, how many Lords and Saviors do you have?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[chimera]

“Jesus is never a messenger!”
It was not J Baptist who proclaimed the new covenant (as in the Mass…) How does the verse specify that God came to the temple?

"…this of course does not mean that Yahweh God was inferring that they are gods but, rather, that they are not! "
Yes, that’s why he said …“no other God”…They need discussing because humans have these false gods. And faithful men are seen by God as being gods._ Exodus 7.1.
"Jesus is never a representative of false gods! "
Surely I keep saying that Jesus is faithful?

“…the Word is the Light; the Word created everything that exists;” John 1.1,3.
“The Word was with God… existence through him”.
The definitions “with” and “through” show 2 persons, with God being the primary focus. It’s not “God was with the Word” or “existence through God”. Jesus is never “o theos” God, and the only noun in the verse to lack the definite “The” God is “The Word was theos”. 2 Cor. 4.4 has Satan as “o theos” (“the god of this world”). Jesus is not The God, and not the god of this world.
“The problem lies in Faith (reread John 14 through 16, paying attention to the messege not a preconceived notion that causes you to reject Jesus as God).”
John 14.20 has Jesus as one with God and one with believers.
14.21.If they love Jesus, then they will be loved by the father.
14.23 “We” meaning father and Jesus. So separate persons are described.

“Consider this, how many Lords and Saviors do you have?”
More than 1, less than 3.

 

[jcrichton]

“Jesus is never a messenger!”
It was not J Baptist who proclaimed the new covenant (as in the Mass…) How does the verse specify that God came to the temple?

Have you read the New Testament?

"…this of course does not mean that Yahweh God was inferring that they are gods but, rather, that they are not! "
Yes, that’s why he said …“no other God”…They need discussing because humans have these false gods. And faithful men are seen by God as being gods._ Exodus 7.1.
"Jesus is never a representative of false gods! "
Surely I keep saying that Jesus is faithful?

Are you really reading the Holy Scriptures? God does not see man as god. Because He is our Creator and He elected us (Israel and the Gentiles in Abraham) He Commands us to emulate Him: to be gods. Yet, outside of Him we are nothing; that’s why Jesus Commands us to abide in Him so that He would abide in us (be perfect for your Father is perfect).

“…the Word is the Light; the Word created everything that exists;” John 1.1,3.
“The Word was with God… existence through him”.
The definitions “with” and “through” show 2 persons, with God being the primary focus. It’s not “God was with the Word” or “existence through God”. Jesus is never “o theos” God, and the only noun in the verse to lack the definite “The” God is “The Word was theos”. 2 Cor. 4.4 has Satan as “o theos” (“the god of this world”). Jesus is not The God, and not the god of this world.

Please continue in your “vocabulary lesson” perhaps you will one day learn to go beyond your finite limitations and accept that God, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End is One.

“The problem lies in Faith (reread John 14 through 16, paying attention to the messege not a preconceived notion that causes you to reject Jesus as God).”
John 14.20 has Jesus as one with God and one with believers.
14.21.If they love Jesus, then they will be loved by the father.
14.23 “We” meaning father and Jesus. So separate persons are described.

Three Divine Persons are discribed and all three will abide in the Believer; those who deny the Son will have neither and those who deny the Father and the Son will do so without the Holy Spirit:

Wherefore, I give you to understand that no man, speaking by the Spirit of God, saith Anathema to Jesus. And no man can say The Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost. (1 Corinthians 12:3–DRV)

“Consider this, how many Lords and Saviors do you have?”
More than 1, less than 3.

So are you saying that you are unfaithful to Yahweh God?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[chimera]

_"Jesus is never a messenger! "
What else was he doing for three years? "Jesus made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant"Phil. 2.7
“But I have greater witness than John, for the works which the Father has given me to finish, the same I do” John 5.36
“He that sent me is true, and I speak…which I have heard. …as the Father has taught me I speak…”_John 8.26-29.
Where does John Baptist mention the New Covenant? Jesus did not state it until the night of his arrest. Again, where does it say that God came to the temple?

_"God does not see man as god. Because He is our Creator and He elected us (Israel and the Gentiles in Abraham) He Commands us to emulate Him: to be gods. ). "
Which of your statements is the correct one? God chose to say that Moses was god to Pharaoh.

_“Please continue in your “vocabulary lesson” perhaps you will one day learn to go beyond your finite limitations and accept that God, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End is One.”
God says that “ton Theos” The God is one, I agree. And God says the Word a god was with The God " theos en o logos… en pros ton Theos". That’s the nearest expression to saying Jesus is God, but the clear words need changing or deleting to make them fit that theory.
_“Consider this, how many Lords and Saviors do you have?”
[More than 1, less than 3. ]
“So are you saying that you are unfaithful to Yahweh God?”
"Christ petitioned the One who was able to save him from death"Heb.4.7. The Father sent forth his Son as Savior. 1 John 4.14. God exalted this One as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand Acts 5.31".
If God chooses his words then I choose not to change them.

 

[AquinAugustine]

This will, hopefully, be of some benefit to those who are honestly seeking the Truth, but meaningless with regard to any benefit, as were the parables of our Lord, to those whose interests and agendas are oriented toward other purposes.

There are uses of scripture quotations in the letter to the Hebrews, for example, in which the author quotes scriptures which refer to God, in their original context, and expresses absolutely no misgivings about stating that Jesus is the intended focus of the aforementioned verses. Some examples include Psalm 102:26-28, parallel of Hebrews 1:10-12, and Deuteronomy 32:43, parallel of Hebrews 1:6.

I would also refer those interested in proofs of the Incarnation to the article Catholic Encyclopedia: The Incarnation, which can be found at this address: newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm#I1a