Jesus in the Monastery

[swplan76]

I have a great desire to explore monastic life. I doubt very much that I have a monastic vocation, but I think visiting a monastery would be a very good experience nonetheless.

On one hand I agree with you. Getting away and devoting time to living in the leadership of the Spirit and getting away from the influences of the world would be a great blessing.

On the other hand though, I have a very hard time seeing how the lifestyle of monks fits with the life and message of Jesus. “Go out into all the world…” I think Jesus was calling humanity to reject the standards of the world, while remaining in it… if we do not remain in the world how can light shine? We cannot put a candle under a bowl and so hide the light of Christ that is meant to burn within us. We have to be a city on a hill. Integral to the message of Jesus and the life He calls us to is the understanding that we are meant to find ourselves relevant and present to those among us who do not have the same fire we do. If we find ourselves among people who are all burning with fire for God, then I think it is time for most of us to move on and find new community. That original community, if it is filled with the goodness of God should be maintained, but what tends to happen in monasteries is that monks become less and less able to relate to people…

I read an article today from McLean’s that presents an interview with a Monk who has spent more than 7 decades in his monastery. He describes seclusion and not feeling able or interested in communicating with the world outside the monastery, especially the kids who have “haircuts like the Mohawk Indians.” This doesn’t sound much like Jesus to me. Jesus was out among the undesirable people - He called the outsiders to come back to God’s way, which was not that of the strict and religious, but a new way that did not demand that people adhere to a new culture or set of rituals - He breathed life into the old way and made it relevant.

The type of Christianity that is often seen, and is seen in monasteries, is the kind that demands that non-adherents conform to the way of living that is acceptable to the church before any further dialogue can develop. Jesus did not do this.

If Jesus were to come back today, would he want to spend time with a bunch of aging, culturally disconnected monks who have rejected the culture they are surrounded with, or would He be in the city, among those who are down and out?

When Christianity began to emerge, Paul went to the Greeks and brought Christianity to them in a way that was relevant - he used Greek religion and philosophy to open their eyes to the gospel. He did not demand that they first become Jews and that they change their clothes and diet to resemble Paul’s own culture - Those things lost their importance - relevance was primary…

I don’t know how else Christianity works, unless Christians are attempting to be light and salt in the world around them. “Once salt has lost its saltiness it is only good to be thrown into the fire.” In the monastery, I think “salt” can become more salty, but the reverse can also happen. Salt can have nothing that it can enhance and if it becomes disconnected from its purpose, is that the same thing that Jesus is talking about in his metaphor? Is that salt then only good to be thrown out?

A Protestant pastor, Jim Cymbala, wrote in his book, ‘Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire,’ that God will only ask him one question when they meet face to face. “Did you lead people to call out my name?” If this is God’s primary interest, shouldn’t it increasingly become ours as well? If a monastery is focused on being effective in leading people to call upon the name of the Lord, then it is serving its purpose, but if it is not consumed with that purpose, then maybe it should be, reinvented, re-envisioned, and if it can’t do those things, then maybe it should be shut down.

Just some thoughts from someone on the journey.

 

[withwind]

I have few examples of the Saints whose life behind the walls have had great impact on the world today and also during their time:

Saint Therese of the Child Jesus.
Saint Faustina

These are just two examples. I see that you are not Catholic, I hope that you can read into the lives of the Saints above.

 

[swplan76]

Hey,

 I'm not, not Catholic.  I'm a Christian.  As far as I see it, Catholic, protestant, Orthodox, or what have you, we're all part of the church (though, I imagine that all denomination have a number of non-Christians who just like religion and like traditions and have no interest in actually connecting with God).

 I'll look up those saints you mentioned.

Thanks,
SW

 

[jimcav]

On the other hand though, I have a very hard time seeing how the lifestyle of monks fits with the life and message of Jesus. “Go out into all the world…” I think Jesus was calling humanity to reject the standards of the world, while remaining in it… if we do not remain in the world how can light shine?

Catholics don’t think in terms of “I think Jesus meant this or that”. We know what Jesus meant in his fullness through our Church. Catholics believe there are many ways to “go out into the world”

swplan76:

A Protestant pastor, Jim Cymbala, wrote in his book, ‘Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire,’ that God will only ask him one question when they meet face to face. “Did you lead people to call out my name?”

Then if thats the question, monks will fare very well, far better than most. They lead people to Christ everyday through prayer and example…

swplan76:

If a monastery is focused on being effective in leading people to call upon the name of the Lord, then it is serving its purpose, but if it is not consumed with that purpose, then maybe it should be, reinvented, re-envisioned, and if it can’t do those things, then maybe it should be shut down…

Reinvented? Reinvisioned? Shut down!?

These monasteries and the monks that live in them have stood the test of time for 2000 years now and they continue to do wonderful things for those of the Catholic faith or any Christian faith that chooses to go to one. You need to read Church history to know how important they were to Christianity and how important they continue to be to all of us. Not only do they provide sanctuary and rest from everyday life, not only do they provide a wonderful, traditional place to pray devoutly, not only do they provide spiritual direction for people and not only do they pray tirelessly for the sick, the dead and the needy, they pray for you and me and the world. When they pray, they don’t ask God to do for them, they ask God to do for you and me. The power of there prayers might be there most important attribute among many.

My brother in Christ, before you talk about the uselessness of monks and monasteries, you should really visit one. You will probably feel closer to God than you ever have in your life…

 

[swplan76]

Hi JimCav,
I don't think that Monasteries or Monks are useless, but I think they can be. I would actually like to go to a monastery and spend some time there, but as I said recently, I'm not sure how close to God some Monks can be if they are totally disconnected from the world around them. It seems to me that God is the God of the poor and the oppressed - Unless we are actually joining Him in what He is doing, how can we be close to Him? I can understand retreat, but for as long as some Monks are in retreat?... I have a hard time understanding how that fits with who Jesus is.

 

[jimcav]

Many monks do not live a life in isolation like you might think.

Many monasteries are very active in there cities or towns. Like I said before, many offer retreats, spiritual direction, confession, days and nights of prayer and devotion etc. etc… Others actually run business’s out of there monastery to be able to financially take care of themselves. I’ve seen some make jelley and another makes coffee, so they are out in the community and they are out there in there traditional monk cossacks, which itself makes a statement to society and does help bring people to God. So it really varies with the order how active or isolated they are.

Now you must believe in the power of prayer, don’t you? If so, nobody in this world prays more or meditates on Christ more than monks. They pray for all of us, so how can they be disconnected from God? Didn’t Jesus ask us to pray? And as you say, God is the God of the oppressed and poor, and nobody lives as poor a life as the monks. They give up all there worldly goods for God. Doesn’t that speak to there Godliness?

 

[withwind]

Hi JimCav,

   I don't think that Monasteries or Monks are useless, but I think they can be.

May I ask what praying means to you?

 

[Tietjen]

I had just finished writing a very detailed response to your original post and then went back and re-read it. I’m glad that I did because there wasn’t very much charity in it. So here’s the short and sweet version. Learn about the subject you wish to criticize before speaking about it. Our Nuns and Monks do not simply isolate themselves from the world. They teach school, take care or the sick in hospitals, they feed the hungry, they provide shelter for pilgrims seeking to draw closer to God, and yes they also pray several hours a day for the people of this world. No, you generally won’t find them hanging out on the beach with the kids sporting mohawks, nor will they be inside the bars socializing and drinking with the patrons. Their time is given in service to mankind via prayer and acts of kindness to God’s creations (man). The idea that you would fault a 90 +/- year old monk for preferring to pray and work for mankind inside a cloistered environment rather than “hang out” with kids sporting mohawk haircuts simply astounds me. I find your post very judgmental and devoid of substance (IE - containing opinions rather than experience and facts).

 

[Tietjen]

It seems to me that God is the God of the poor and the oppressed - Unless we are actually joining Him in what He is doing, how can we be close to Him?

God is the God of EVERYBODY… Rich, poor, married, single, man, woman, child, democrat, republican, Baptist, Catholic, and even monk and nun. He does not reject a monk who devotes his entire life to growing closer to Him and praying for and helping humanity; while embracing only the poor and the oppressed.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

On one hand I agree with you. Getting away and devoting time to living in the leadership of the Spirit and getting away from the influences of the world would be a great blessing.

On the other hand though, I have a very hard time seeing how the lifestyle of monks fits with the life and message of Jesus. “Go out into all the world…”

If this is the standard then we all fail.

Those in married life fail as they have other concerns, such as their family, first.

A parish priest fails because he is in his parish rather than going out into the world.

Priests who teach fail because they are in a school setting.

The only ones who would pass this standard are missionaries.

 

[swplan76]

Thanks for so many responses!

I do not blame you for wanting to protect what you hold so dear!

Some of you have responded to me as though I have made blanket statements about monks, nuns and monasteries when I’ve actually just meant to address the ones that **might **have lost their way.

The church (not just the Catholic church) has had a problem with being able to face its own mistakes. It also has a problem with getting stuck in the gears of history (in our modern age, various aspects of religion can resemble a system that was effective 500 years ago, but has long since been in need of renovation). This is probably my experience outside of Catholicism speaking, but it seems to me that we deify our traditions (not just in the Catholic church). In any given denomination they experience a ‘heyday’ and in those days they develop traditions, rituals and ceremonies and around those practices they experience a strong sense of community, or they experience God, or a combination of both and they associate the rituals, traditions and ceremonies with the experience and many begin to believe that the practices they have developed hold some unique power - many people actually begin to unconsciously worship their practices - they think that their practices hold some influence over God, when in reality, it was the practices that held influence over the people, to seek God - we get confused. Our traditions, ceremonies, rituals and clothes don’t make a difference with God. They are meant to serve to influence us to seek God and if they stop being effective, why keep using them? We have a loyalty to this man made ritual, but just like a wooden square peg, if the edges are worn out and it becomes eroded, then it can’t reach the corners any more - it can’t do its job any more, so it either needs to be reinvented or re-envisioned or replaced.

Failing
We all fail, but we hopefully have success as well.

I think **ByzCath **brings up a good point - The only person who doesn’t fail are the missionaries - that is what I’m saying - I think we are all called to be missionaries… if we find ourselves working in a mall, but we have the heart of missionaries and when opportunities arise, we share with co-workers and customers, then we are joining God in what He is doing. And not hard and heavy “turn or burn” stuff - life giving, practical, Jesus teaching.

**Tietjen **- God is the God of all, but God is a God who hears the cry of the oppressed… in reading scripture, it seems that is His preoccupation. He comes for the lost and the broken - We have to ask where we are in relation to the poor and the oppressed - If we aren’t poor and oppressed, then, if we are going to walk with God, we need to find ourselves joining Him in liberating them (in some way).

Prayer
I know prayer is powerful. Scripture also says, “If one of you says to him,“Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?” I wonder if this applies to prayer. If a Monk in a monastery has hidden himself from the world, knows very few people, does very little for anyone but himself and his brothers, but prays all day, I don’t know if that kind of disengaged lifestyle can produce prayer - God mostly hears our hearts, not so much our words - “where your treasures are, there your heart will be also.” if a person is really concerned for people, that person will pray, but also engage in their lives - I think that is what Jesus teaches.
Prayer to me is conversation with God. As we pray, God reveals himself, through the Holy Spirit, but also through responding to those prayers, showing us that He is present and more than able to handle the things we are facing. He uses it to draw us closer, to show us how great He is and to increase His presence in our lives. The more we pray, the more we experience God.

Please understand that I am presenting these ideas, not to hurt you, or to attack you or what you believe. I believe we are brothers in Christ. I believe that asking the hard questions helps us all to grow.

 

[LilyM]

How is praying for someone’s needs to be fulfilled, as monks do, in any way neglecting them? How is spending time at His feet in contemplation, as Mary did, any less worthy than serving His people in practical ways as Martha did? Didn’t He say it was Mary who had chosen the better part in fact?

We can’t all give money or other material resources, and realistically no amount of money or material resources will make a serious dent in the world’s problems, but we can and should always give prayer, and Jesus taught us to pray without ceasing.

What did Jesus say to his Apostles, who were successful fishermen? Did He say ‘keep it up, we’re going to need all those fish to feed the five thousand, y’know, not to mention feeding ourselves’! No indeed. He told them to leave their worldly jobs, and they did, and He provided their material needs and those of the five thousand as well!

 

[jimcav]

What kind of Church would we have if we kept changing our “traditions” when society changes?

Well, we would have the mess that Protestants have today. They have changed with the times so often that many of there adhereants don’t know what to believe anymore. They have branched out into more than 300 denominations now, and I’m quite sure they are not done yet. So what do Protestants do when they become disenchanted? They church shop to find a pastor that says what they want to hear. It might not be the “truth”, but it sounds good to them, so they go. Or even worse, they go the non-denominational route, and interpret the scriptures the way they want. Dangerous stuff, which leads to me to think that you are part of the non-denominationals I speak of

So, because society believes divorce is now OK, the Church should change? Society wants gay marriage, so they again should change? How about premarital sex? Or the biggie, abortion? Surely the Church should be enlightened by society on abortion by now! Ahhh, cmon, what do those monks really do these days? Priests need to get married to! And the Pope, really, do we need one of them? And the list of changes people like yourself want to see goes on and on and on. Where would it all end?

Is the Eucharist just a silly tradition whose time has passed? The sacrement of Penance? Confirmation, Holy Orders, the Annointing of the Sick? Do you believe in or even know what "Apostolic Succession"is? It’s the key to understanding Catholicism.

You have to understand this. Catholicism is not a denomination. It is the only true Church of Jesus Christ. He gave us all this Church. It cannot be changed, nor will it change when all around it might be. It is the rock for all times! So please understand that just because swplan76 came along in the year 2009 and said we should change, that change will happen. Sorry, but do you know how absurd that sounds?

Please read up on the Church. Read the Church history and read of the early Church fathers. Try and understand that Catholics are very much in love with our Saviour and all He gave us. We do not worship our traditions, but we do so love the traditions that He gave us and have brought us so close to Him. I will pray that you come to know the truth of the Catholic Church, and yes, even return someday…

 

[swplan76]

Hi LilyM,

You said:

How is praying for someone’s needs to be fulfilled, as monks do, in any way neglecting them? How is spending time at His feet in contemplation, as Mary did, any less worthy than serving His people in practical ways as Martha did? Didn’t He say it was Mary who had chosen the better part in fact?

“Faith without deeds is dead.” "“If one of you says to him,“Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?” Many Monks combine prayer and action - this is what Jesus was after. Some Monks disconnect from the world they live in to the point that they know no one outside of the monastery

         - My question is this: Do their words and action contradict each other? -

I scripture presents the calling to all Christians to go out into all the world and to be in the world (but not of it). How can light shine if it is placed under a bowl?

Here’s another question:

        - What does it mean to spend time with Jesus?  When Jesus was here in physical form as a man, spending time with Jesus meant a lot of things.  It was varied.  It meant spending time at contemplation at His feet.  It meant meeting the needs of those without.  It meant joining Him as He led the way.  It meant entering into uncomfortable circumstances among people who were undesirable by the masses in order to bring about rescue for those people on the fringe.  It meant learning to expect the unexpected.  It meant spending time with people and getting your hands dirty in relationship.  It meant challenging the status quo.  The Jesus movement was a subversive movement.  It meant all those things.  All those things were good, but they were good for the time in which they existed; we need to keep our eyes on the wider perspective and live as fully as possible: "I came so they might have life and have it to the full."  He encourages diversity and fullness of life among His followers.

Did spending time with Jesus mean: shunning society, setting yourself apart in lifestyle and dress, celibacy, extreme regulation of the self, the social and every aspect of life?
- I don’t see this in Jesus teaching.

We can’t all give money or other material resources, and realistically no amount of money or material resources will make a serious dent in the world’s problems, but we can and should always give prayer, and Jesus taught us to pray without ceasing.

We can all give money and other material resources.
Realistically specific amounts of money that we, the western world spends on coffee everyday could end some of the worlds largest problems.

Consider the global priorities in spending in 1998

Global Priority $U.S. Billions
Cosmetics in the United States 8
Ice cream in Europe 11
Perfumes in Europe and the United States 12
Pet foods in Europe and the United States 17
Business entertainment in Japan 35
Cigarettes in Europe 50
Alcoholic drinks in Europe 105
Narcotics drugs in the world 400
Military spending in the world 780

And compare that to what was estimated as additional costs to achieve universal access to basic social services in all developing countries:

Global Priority $U.S. Billions
Basic education for all 6
Water and sanitation for all 9
Reproductive health for all women 12
Basic health and nutrition 13

---

It kind of sounds like you are advocating prayer as the only means of addressing the world’s problems. What good is it for you to wish a person to “stay warm and well fed” if you do nothing about the issues they are facing? Jesus message is a message that is meant to inspire us to do more than just pray - pray, but join Him in what He is doing.

Another question:
Does God want us to chase after the ‘American Dream?’ Make money, buy a house, a car, hold a job, get our kids consumed with video games, sports and academics?

Does God want us to chase after the dreams He has for us? Is that in conflict with the American Dream?

Monks would say that they have left the American Dream behind because it is toxic. How do we respond to that toxicity? Do we shut ourselves away permanently and refuse to engage with it?

Is there anything humanity should be consumed with? When we become consumed with something, does that thing become our god?

If we are consumed with the Kingdom of God, “where our treasures are, there our hearts will be also” - we will invest in ministry that fulfills the things of His heart. I, along with many Catholics I know, are very uncomfortable with Vatican City. I’ve heard various devout Catholics say that Vatican City is a stumbling block for them because it speaks against the Jesus they know. The wealth that is so obviously hoarded up in that place does not remind those Catholics of the Jesus they encounter through prayer and scripture.

We can contribute to change financially.

I wonder if Jesus pays any attention to the prayers of those who refuse to put their money where their mouth is. If we aren’t willing to do anything with our hands, feet or money to changes things, what are we really saying to God? - “God, you fix it, I’m too busy - my time and money are tied up in other things - let me know when its done. Thanks God.”

What did Jesus say to his Apostles, who were successful fishermen? Did He say ‘keep it up, we’re going to need all those fish to feed the five thousand, y’know, not to mention feeding ourselves’! No indeed. He told them to leave their worldly jobs, and they did, and He provided their material needs and those of the five thousand as well!

He provides beyond our expectations. He also called those fishermen to join Him. I think we disagree on what it means to join Jesus, or to spend time with Him.

All I’m saying is that a Monastery is a good place, but only for a time, not a lifetime. Of course, I am not the authority - God knows better than I do. God may call people into that vocation. I’m saying it doesn’t make sense to me and how I perceive God at this point in my life - I’m not sure He desires a lifetime in a monastery for people. IF He does, then that monastery would be a place that is **effective **in leading people to call upon the name of the Lord.

 

[withwind]

All I’m saying is that a Monastery is a good place, but only for a time, not a lifetime. Of course, I am not the authority - God knows better than I do. God may call people into that vocation. I’m saying it doesn’t make sense to me and how I perceive God at this point in my life - I’m not sure He desires a lifetime in a monastery for people. IF He does, then that monastery would be a place that is **effective **in leading people to call upon the name of the Lord.

It might be true that you are not called ot this kind of life, and it is true that it does not make sense to you at this point in your spiritual life. Many nuns and monks know what God have wanted of them and they have responded to His call.

This monastic life is crucial part of the Church - God blesses us by providing us these prayer warrirors. The Church has different parts and each part plays important role.

St. Therese, as I introduced to you, is known as the Patron Saint of the Missionary although she had never been a missionary herself. You should read more about the Saint.

 

[Anlar]

Mark 14:7 "For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them; but you do not always have Me.

The Lord is pleased when there are people who spend the rest of their life adoring, praising and loving Him with all their heart, body and soul. That’s what the nuns and monks do in the monastery, they are from this world but they are not from this world. It is a balance, there are those who work (apostolate) and there are those who pray and beg God for mercy. Each and everyone are called in a very unique vocation. It is not healthy to think that this one is better than this one. Like a message I have read, “which is more important to a bird the right wing or the left wing?”

 

[swplan76]

Hey JimCav,

What kind of Church would we have if we kept changing our “traditions” when society changes?

I think we would have one that is seeking after the present, living Christ. Paul did not come to the Greeks trying to have them understand Christ through Jewish eyes. Paul, a Jew, brought Christianity to them through Greek religion and philosophy. He was relevant. What kind of Church would we have if we kept trying to speak the same language as the people around us and if we were familiar with the culture of our time - a relevant one. The teachings of Jesus never lose their relevancy, but our methods do. In Revelation there are specific addresses to specific churches - the message was for them in their specific set of circumstances - one way we can learn from it by seeing how the message was relevant to them. That is what scripture is, it was a specific address to a specific people and that is often where we can find relevancy - in understanding the context in which we find scripture. In the same way, we need to attempt to speak the message in a relevant way in our modern setting.

Well, we would have the mess that Protestants have today. …So what do Protestants do when they become disenchanted? They church shop to find a pastor that says what they want to hear. It might not be the “truth”, but it sounds good to them, so they go. Or even worse, they go the non-denominational route, and interpret the scriptures the way they want. Dangerous stuff…

I choose not to affiliate with any denomination. There are some that I am more comfortable with than others. I think that all denominations are flawed in some ways and I believe this is also true of the Catholic church. “All fall short of the glory of God.” People have made a mess of things - no doubt, but amidst the mess, some beautiful things are taking shape in the larger church (including the Catholic church). Regardless of the walls that we build using theology and labels, God is at work and uses people across various denominations of His church.

It would be “dangerous” if God were absent from the world and from our lives. If God is off on vacation and it is up to you and me to push each other into thinking one thing or another, and the church is there to keep us in line, then independent seeking of God is dangerous. It would be dangerous because, though I might be sincere, as I pray God is not listening and God will not guide my steps. It would be dangerous because I trust in the Holy Spirit and if God is absent, then the HS has no power and I may as well be listening to a madman… It would be dangerous… but I am in good hands - the best. God is not absent and I am seeking Him sincerely through the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

So, because society believes divorce is now OK, the Church should change? Society wants gay marriage, so they again should change? How about premarital sex? Or the biggie, abortion? Surely the Church should be enlightened by society on abortion by now! Ahhh, cmon, what do those monks really do these days? Priests need to get married to! And the Pope, really, do we need one of them? And the list of changes people like yourself want to see goes on and on and on. Where would it all end?

All good questions!!
I think the church should respond to the culture it finds itself in. The church is supposed to be a light amidst dark surroundings. Divorce, gay marriage, premarital sex, abortion, these are clearly things that bring suffering to the world - and scripture is fairly clear on them. Clearly some priests should not be called to be celibate. Clearly some priests are torn between two instincts. Scripture does not demand that members of clergy become celibate. The church has done that and made life unbearable for clergy who have become sexual offenders and for their victims (adultery, rape, pedophilia). Clearly there are some problems with the Catholic idea of priesthood… I’m not demanding perfection and I don’t expect it - I’ve known some good priests over the years.

Is the Eucharist just a silly tradition whose time has passed? The sacrement of Penance? Confirmation, Holy Orders, the Annointing of the Sick? Do you believe in or even know what "Apostolic Succession"is? It’s the key to understanding Catholicism.

Yes I know quite a bit about Catholicism.
I wonder, do you think that all of these things are responsible for whether or not God loves you and has plans to bring about blessing in your life? What if the church decided to stop practicing all of its rituals (not that I am advocating that), would you suddenly be damned and lose your connection with God? I spoke about this earlier - All of those things do not determine your salvation, they are meant to influence you to call out to God and be closer to Him as a result. My wife works in a hospital that employs a lot of Catholics. Once a year they all take time off to go to mass and have ashes put on their foreheads. She’s asked them, “What does it mean?” They have no idea and are unable to answer her. Over the years, if I can be honest with you, of the Catholics I have met, very few are real seekers of God, but there are some. Some of them are among the most seriously hungry seekers I know. Their passion for Him pours out into the way they live their life - generosity, kindness, love, …goodness - the Spirit’s presence is on them in a powerful way - I have seen this among people in many denominations. My knowledge and experience of God has led me to understand that the Catholic church is a member of the larger church - in every denomination, there are those who are sincere and those who are not - the CHURCH is made up of those people who are sincere (I think), but I also don’t think I am the judge - God is and He knows much better than I do.

You have to understand this. Catholicism is not a denomination. It is the only true Church of Jesus Christ. He gave us all this Church. It cannot be changed, nor will it change when all around it might be. It is the rock for all times! So please understand that just because swplan76 came along in the year 2009 and said we should change, that change will happen. Sorry, but do you know how absurd that sounds?

Yeah, good thing it isn’t up to me! Change is happening and it cannot be stopped. The Catholic church is changing all the time. God is moving and will always lead His people into newness - if we want to be near Him, we have to be interested in what He is doing around us in our present age.

Thanks Jim!

Have a great day!
Steve

 

[Tietjen]

Please understand that I am presenting these ideas, not to hurt you, or to attack you or what you believe. I believe we are brothers in Christ. I believe that asking the hard questions helps us all to grow.

To what end? Are you “asking the hard questions” to gain knowledge of the truth or are you asking in order to “save” Catholics? Because, my dear brother, if the answer is the later, most Catholics here have heard it before and it is not hard nor does it even begin to cause us to doubt our Church or our faith in Christ.

I did enjoy your approach however. You start out with a simple thread concerning monks living cloistered lives and somehow bring the discussion around to Church Sacraments no longer being needed, and Priests being allowed to marry and have sex least they become sexual deviants. It was a nice try really, but it is not very innovative. Christ’s Church has been attacked for over 2000 years and I suspect that these attacks will continue until the end of time.

Take care and God bless brother.

 

[LilyM]

He encourages diversity and fullness of life among His followers.

As you, it would seem, do not - you want everyone to follow Christ in the ways that YOU think are appropriate.

Did spending time with Jesus mean: shunning society, setting yourself apart in lifestyle and dress, celibacy, extreme regulation of the self, the social and every aspect of life?
- I don’t see this in Jesus teaching.

I see it in several places …

"Peter said 'What about us? We left all we had (including society, no doubt) to follow you. Jesus answered: “I tell you solemnly, there is no one who has left **house, wife, brothers, parents, or children ** (and, no doubt, society) for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not be given repayment many times over in this present time and, in the world to come, eternal life (Luke 18:28-30).

Luke 9:

"57As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.”

58Jesus replied, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

59He said to another man, “Follow me.”
But the man replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”

60Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

61 Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good-by to my family.”

62Jesus replied, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”

It kind of sounds like you are advocating prayer as the only means of addressing the world’s problems. What good is it for you to wish a person to “stay warm and well fed” if you do nothing about the issues they are facing?

Jesus message is a message that is meant to inspire us to do more than just pray - pray, but join Him in what He is doing.

Like the Apostles joined Him in feeding the five thousand? Like Mary joined Him in preaching to the crowds? They had faith, He provided the wherewithal.

Where we differ is in your view that Jesus is no longer among us to be contemplated as He was in those days. He is - we firmly believe in His Real Presence in the Eucharist, that as He has said He is always with us in the form of His body and blood. And for that reason if no other, contemplation is every bit as possible for us as it was for Mary.

Perhaps you don’t believe the same. But doubtless you believe that He is present in His word, scripture? So in studying and contemplating His word, again we are doing as Mary did, and choosing the better part in doing so.

I didn’t say prayer was the only thing we should do, but it is a great thing nonetheless in and of itself. It IS a work that contributes to the good of society. Ever noticed that in spite of all the philanthropy going on the world is steadily getting worse and worse? It’s not because people are less generous with time and money, it’s because without the base of prayer people who do the works treat them as an end in themselves, and so they are bound to fail. ‘Except the Lord build the house, in vain do its builders labour …’ etc.

While it is indeed wrong to focus on material possession, what’s wrong with valuing academics? We have need of well educated people to become doctors, teachers and so on. These too contribute to society and to God’s work. He was academically gifted enough to confound the teachers in the Temple at the age of 12!

All I’m saying is that a Monastery is a good place, but only for a time, not a lifetime. Of course, I am not the authority - God knows better than I do. God may call people into that vocation. I’m saying it doesn’t make sense to me and how I perceive God at this point in my life - I’m not sure He desires a lifetime in a monastery for people. IF He does, then that monastery would be a place that is **effective **in leading people to call upon the name of the Lord.

If it doesn’t make sense to you then don’t do it. Don’t assume it’s senseless because you don’t understand it. The heart cannot be expected to understand the function of the lung, yet each is supremely important in the work of the body and its highly specialised task is necessary to the function of that body - so much so that if it stops the body dies.

The prayer of these people is a source of spiritual strength for everyone they pray for - it ‘avails much’ as James says. Whether the people even know they’re being prayed for or not.

Paul told us to pray unceasingly, no? Who in all honesty does that better than these good men and women?

How is a monastery NOT effective in leading people to call upon the name of the Lord when those who live there do so unceasingly day in and day out in their prayers? And by their example inspire others to join them and do the same (obviously they do, since the monastic tradition continues to this day)?

 

[swplan76]

To what end? Are you “asking the hard questions” to gain knowledge of the truth or are you asking in order to “save” Catholics? Because, my dear brother, if the answer is the later, most Catholics here have heard it before and it is not hard nor does it even begin to cause us to doubt our Church or our faith in Christ.

I’m not attempting to “save Catholics.” As I stated, I believe that Christians are present in the Catholic church and it is a valid part of the larger church. I don’t want Catholics to stop being Catholic. I do believe that every Christian everywhere needs to grow and change - I think that is the general message of Jesus - He has transformative power and if we can embrace that power it can be like going from being blind, to having sight. I think hard questions help us to entrust the answers to God - as we ask them prayerfully, He helps us to find answers.

I did enjoy your approach however. You start out with a simple thread concerning monks living cloistered lives and somehow bring the discussion around to Church Sacraments no longer being needed, and Priests being allowed to marry and have sex least they become sexual deviants. It was a nice try really, but it is not very innovative. Christ’s Church has been attacked for over 2000 years and I suspect that these attacks will continue until the end of time.

Take care and God bless brother.

I didn’t have a plan to go there. If you see some design in what I’ve presented, its not mine - I didn’t have a plan to lead the conversation, I simply responded to questions and thoughts that were presented to me.

Church Sacraments
To clarify, they are excellent tools and God does work through them, but they are not the center point and they do not have power in and of themselves. The power is in God and it comes when we become humble and open to Him. That’s what the sacraments are meant to point us to. I think study of the Bible reveals this.

Paul said it is better to marry than to burn. Jesus said nothing about the requirement of priests to be celibate. The Catholic church has been wrong in the past which is evidenced by reform over the years - It seems clear to me that this is not appropriate and not from the teachings of the Bible.

Questions are not attacks. Please don’t misconstrue what I am doing. If you feel challenged and uncomfortable, what is wrong with that? Is God on your side - yes! You have no need to worry about what you might lose if you begin to see things in a different way - which you seem dead set against doing. Personally, I am in a process, a journey and God is leading me. My perspective changes and develops over time - this is healthy. We are not called to be right, we are called to be follow Him. I am wrong on a good number of things I am sure, but God is leading me into further understanding - I have learned that unless I am cooperative with Him, He generally does not force me (like Jonah, He may force me, but God is patient and has time).

…

I’ll challenge you directly - stop being afraid. “If God is for us, who can be against us?” Romans 8. This is not an attack, this is a challenge.