Jesus in the Monastery

[swplan76]

As you, it would seem, do not - you want everyone to follow Christ in the ways that YOU think are appropriate.

I’m addressing what seems unhealthy to me. I do think there can be exceptions - God does some pretty unique things with His people, but there are some things that do not seem appropriate for the majority of us in regard to the calling of Christ on our lives.

I see it in several places …

"Peter said 'What about us? We left all we had (including society, no doubt) to follow you. Jesus answered: “I tell you solemnly, there is no one who has left **house, wife, brothers, parents, or children ** (and, no doubt, society) for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not be given repayment many times over in this present time and, in the world to come, eternal life (Luke 18:28-30).

You are wrong on the “no doubt society” part. Jesus was a present and practical teacher that spent some time in seclusion, but the bulk of His time was with people. His followers were not led away from society, they were led into direct ministry and conflict with society.

Luke 9:

"57As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.”

58Jesus replied, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

59He said to another man, “Follow me.”
But the man replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”

60Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

61 Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good-by to my family.”

62Jesus replied, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”

Clearly Jesus is placing the importance of God and the purposes of the Kingdom in our lives above the importance of family, but it is quite a leap to say that He was telling people to develop monastic communities that shuts society out, letting them in for visits (this is the only kind of monastic community I have a problem with). Jesus’ ministry was for the people, for the masses. Yes His message divides people, but that does not mean that it leads people to spend their entire lives in seclusion; Jesus gospel is social in nature.

Where we differ is in your view that Jesus is no longer among us to be contemplated as He was in those days. He is - we firmly believe in His Real Presence in the Eucharist, that as He has said He is always with us in the form of His body and blood. And for that reason if no other, contemplation is every bit as possible for us as it was for Mary.

Perhaps you don’t believe the same. But doubtless you believe that He is present in His word, scripture? So in studying and contemplating His word, again we are doing as Mary did, and choosing the better part in doing so.

I believe Jesus is still among us to be contemplated. I believe that this is made very clear through John 14-16.

Is it imaginable that Mary never did house work? Martha was the only one who ever did house work? The passage you are talking about is dealing with a moment in time. In the moment in time in which Mary is sitting at Jesus feet, she is engaged in worship and contemplation. Martha wants Jesus to stop Mary from this in this moment. Jesus tells Martha that she needs to get her priorities straight. If someone is busy spending time with God, do not interrupt them. As people are increasingly making God a priority, we should not let our earthly concerns get in the way of what God is doing in them… that is atleast part of the message. The message is not that Mary only spent time in contemplation and so we should understand when others choose a cloistered lifestyle - Mary was not cloistered - we have no reason to believe that.

I didn’t say prayer was the only thing we should do, but it is a great thing nonetheless in and of itself. It IS a work that contributes to the good of society. Ever noticed that in spite of all the philanthropy going on the world is steadily getting worse and worse?

No. God is doing amazing things in our present age. Evil is present, but it doesn’t have the final say.

While it is indeed wrong to focus on material possession, what’s wrong with valuing academics? We have need of well educated people to become doctors, teachers and so on. These too contribute to society and to God’s work. He was academically gifted enough to confound the teachers in the Temple at the age of 12!

The operative word in my post was consumed. It is wrong to become consumed with academics if it becomes a god to a person. It seems that you are intentionally being antagonistic and trying to find fault with me.

And by their example inspire others to join them and do the same (obviously they do, since the monastic tradition continues to this day)?

Many traditions continue to this day in various traditions and religions. Endurance does not equivocate to good or right. Murder has been around for many years, but its still wrong (I’m not trying to say that Monasteries are evil, I’m just saying that your logic is not quite spot on).

 

[withwind]

I’m addressing what seems unhealthy to me. I do think there can be exceptions - God does some pretty unique things with His people, but there are some things that do not seem appropriate for the majority of us in regard to the calling of Christ on our lives.

What is healthy to you?

 

[withwind]

I’m addressing what seems unhealthy to me. I do think there can be exceptions - God does some pretty unique things with His people, but there are some things that do not seem appropriate for the majority of us in regard to the calling of Christ on our lives.

yes, many people think that religious life is unhealthy to them - it is because either the call is not for them or they just have their own opinions of what God’s call is for themselves or for other people.

If one truly understands and expriences the graces God grant upon him/her through those religious men and women, s/he will then appreciate their responding to God’s call.

 

[LilyM]

I believe Jesus is still among us to be contemplated. I believe that this is made very clear through John 14-16.

Is it imaginable that Mary never did house work?

Even the most retired contemplative monk or nun has their fair share of their monastery or convent’s chores to do as well, of course. You should watch Into Great Silence - a brilliant movie about a particular contemplative monastery. They do work in and around the building and gardens for sure - more arduous than anything you or I do, some of it.

They may not go out and preach and minister as Jesus did, but there isn’t any real evidence that Mary did so either. In view of the fact that He praised Mary’s contemplation as being ‘the better part’, rather than the housework or any other activities she may have done, not to mention the prevailing Jewish attitude towards women, it’s more likely that she didn’t

It seems that you are intentionally being antagonistic and trying to find fault with me.

Well, it seems that you don’t quite even know what monks and nuns actually do on a day-to-day basis (for example thinking that they don’t even do housework). I’m not intentionally being antagonistic, but I’d have more patience if it didn’t appear that you were jumping to at least a few unwarranted assumptions.

Many traditions continue to this day in various traditions and religions. Endurance does not equivocate to good or right. Murder has been around for many years, but its still wrong (I’m not trying to say that Monasteries are evil, I’m just saying that your logic is not quite spot on).

Neither was your logic when you somehow assumed that a monastery is not “a place that is effective in leading people to call upon the name of the Lord.”

 

[swplan76]

yes, many people think that religious life is unhealthy to them - it is because either the call is not for them or they just have their own opinions of what God’s call is for themselves or for other people.

If one truly understands and expriences the graces God grant upon him/her through those religious men and women, s/he will then appreciate their responding to God’s call.

I have been struck lately at the idea that the Bible says that the church is supposed to be a “Kingdom of Priests.” You and I are supposed to be priests. Though we have other responsibilities, we are supposed to be just as committed to God as Priests are.

It seems to me that as we work in the world around people of various faiths we are more equipped to be priests than monks. I don’t think they have more opportunity to have God’s hand on them than we do - God will bless us equally… but Monks are detached from community. We are not. I can’t see Christianity as something that calls people into permanent seclusion. Christianity is about connecting people with each other and primarily with God. God uses people in relationship with each other to lead us into relationship with Him. (remember, I am not God and I am not all knowing - I just see this as a paradox at present).

 

[withwind]

I have been struck lately at the idea that the Bible says that the church is supposed to be a “Kingdom of Priests.” You and I are supposed to be priests. Though we have other responsibilities, we are supposed to be just as committed to God as Priests are.

It seems to me that as we work in the world around people of various faiths we are more equipped to be priests than monks. I don’t think they have more opportunity to have God’s hand on them than we do - God will bless us equally… but Monks are detached from community. We are not. I can’t see Christianity as something that calls people into permanent seclusion. Christianity is about connecting people with each other and primarily with God. God uses people in relationship with each other to lead us into relationship with Him. (remember, I am not God and I am not all knowing - I just see this as a paradox at present).

I really appreciate the thoughts that you have put into this thread. This shows that you are serious thinking about doing God’s will.

Maybe you can read the book called “Priest is not of his own” by Bishop Fulton Sheen. He was a wonderful Bishop and his voice still is alive today on Relevant Radio.

The Monks and cloistured nuns are detaching themselves from the flesh of this world, but they are never attaching themselves from the Body of Christ which is His people. In praying, in the breaking the Bread, in receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, the monks and nuns unify themselves with Christ. As one with Christ, s/he is with His people. As they are in union with Christ, their prayers are also in union with His will - in Spirit and in Truth.

Their total sacrifice is for Christ and for salvation of souls.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I’m not attempting to “save Catholics.” As I stated, I believe that Christians are present in the Catholic church and it is a valid part of the larger church.

Why thank you, how very gracious of you.

You are aware, I am sure, that we Catholics think of ourselves as Christians, not just that some Christians are present in our Church (if you do not get sarcasm I am pointing out that this comment by you is very offensive). We also view our Church as the Church of which you, as a Christian (which you claim to be and I will not judge as you seem to do to Catholics) are a part of it.

Questions are not attacks. Please don’t misconstrue what I am doing. If you feel challenged and uncomfortable, what is wrong with that?

This is not true, questions can be attacks. You have stated that you think we are defending ourselves, we are not, we are just giving you the facts of life as a Catholic.

I’m addressing what seems unhealthy to me.

Not attacking? But you think it is unhealthy?

I think you did come here with a plan and a goal.

I do not think you are open to an honest open discussion.

This thread is worthless.

 

[LilyM]

I have been struck lately at the idea that the Bible says that the church is supposed to be a “Kingdom of Priests.” You and I are supposed to be priests. Though we have other responsibilities, we are supposed to be just as committed to God as Priests are.

It seems to me that as we work in the world around people of various faiths we are more equipped to be priests than monks. I don’t think they have more opportunity to have God’s hand on them than we do - God will bless us equally… but Monks are detached from community. We are not. I can’t see Christianity as something that calls people into permanent seclusion. Christianity is about connecting people with each other and primarily with God. God uses people in relationship with each other to lead us into relationship with Him. (remember, I am not God and I am not all knowing - I just see this as a paradox at present).

You think there can’t be such a thing as an introverted saint? Look at St John the Apostle in exile on Patmos for all those years. He wrote, but as an exile certainly wouldn’t have had much opportunity to communicate with the outside world.

What about the heavenly saints? They aren’t big on physically communicating with us - does that mean they’re totally cut off from the earthly members of the Body of Christ though? How can that be, Christ has but one body, all its members alive and working together. Not two, one living and one dead, one earthly and the other heavenly and never the twain shall meet.

 

[swplan76]

You think there can’t be such a thing as an introverted saint? Look at St John the Apostle in exile on Patmos for all those years. He wrote, but as an exile certainly wouldn’t have had much opportunity to communicate with the outside world.

What about the heavenly saints? They aren’t big on physically communicating with us - does that mean they’re totally cut off from the earthly members of the Body of Christ though? How can that be, Christ has but one body, all its members alive and working together. Not two, one living and one dead, one earthly and the other heavenly and never the twain shall meet.

John wasn’t in exile for his whole life and John was in communication with the outside world, doing his best to be a voice.

Heavenly Saints.
Enlighten me. I understand that the Catholic Church has emphasized praying to the ‘saints.’ In reading the Bible I have come to understand that the word ‘Saints’ is actually referring to ‘the redeemed’ - Christians. I don’t see where the Bible tells us to pray to the dead. If I can communicate directly with God, why would I pray to dead Christians? If Jesus came to remove the curtain so that each of us can enter into His presence, why would I need to petition those who are dead? Is the idea that they have influence over God to do things we ask for and He just won’t listen to us, but needs the dead to be asking Him on our behalf? I just don’t get it.

 

[LilyM]

John wasn’t in exile for his whole life and John was in communication with the outside world, doing his best to be a voice.

Heavenly Saints.
Enlighten me. I understand that the Catholic Church has emphasized praying to the ‘saints.’ In reading the Bible I have come to understand that the word ‘Saints’ is actually referring to ‘the redeemed’ - Christians. I don’t see where the Bible tells us to pray to the dead. If I can communicate directly with God, why would I pray to dead Christians? If Jesus came to remove the curtain so that each of us can enter into His presence, why would I need to petition those who are dead? Is the idea that they have influence over God to do things we ask for and He just won’t listen to us, but needs the dead to be asking Him on our behalf? I just don’t get it.

Jesus did remove the curtain, but nonetheless we don’t approach Him alone - instead we approach Him in prayer in the company of our fellow men. We ask them to pray with us and for us. Not because we need, but because He taught us to do in the OUR Father (which isn’t the MY Father, after all). Why do you petition those who are living, by your logic you’ve no reason to ask them to pray for you either. Yet the example of Paul teaches us to seek the prayers of our fellow man.

And we can do pray with those who are no longer on earth as well as those who are still with us. James says ‘the prayer of a righteous man avails much’ - who more righteous than those in heaven who have run the race and claimed thier prize? And do you believe God would take away their ability to hear our prayer petitions and take them to Him just when they are at their most powerful? God is not so cruel.

If those who have departed in Christ were indeed dead, you might have a point. Jesus makes abundantly clear that ‘he who lives and believes in me will NEVER die’, and more, that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is God of the living and not the dead - hence that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are living and not dead. And if alive then perfectly able to pray with us and for us as any person living on Earth is capable of doing.

 

[swplan76]

Jesus did remove the curtain, but nonetheless we don’t approach Him alone - instead we approach Him in prayer in the company of our fellow men. We ask them to pray with us and for us. Not because we need, but because He taught us to do in the OUR Father (which isn’t the MY Father, after all). Why do you petition those who are living, by your logic you’ve no reason to ask them to pray for you either. Yet the example of Paul teaches us to seek the prayers of our fellow man.

Hi Lily,
Interesting response! Actually I do see the importance of having people pray for you who are alive. God reveals Himself to us as we seek Him - if I pray for you and God answers our prayer, then I see God moving among us.

And we can do pray with those who are no longer on earth as well as those who are still with us. James says ‘the prayer of a righteous man avails much’ - who more righteous than those in heaven who have run the race and claimed thier prize? And do you believe God would take away their ability to hear our prayer petitions and take them to Him just when they are at their most powerful? God is not so cruel.

I understand your logic, but you have not provided any scripture or anything that says that God wants us to pray to the dead, or even that they are in a state in which they can hear us. I do not understand the mystery of the afterlife completely and I’m not sure that we can because very few people have made the sort of claim that they have been there. John, in Revelation, points to the idea that in heaven whatever beings are there are **consumed **with God and **consumed **with worshiping Him. If we have the power to communicate with the dead in heaven, is it cruel of us to attempt to distract them from spending time in the presence of God? Might it be that when they are in heaven they are free of the concerns of earth - that the concerns of earth are only a burden for us while we are here and then once we are dead (in body) we are free of the frustrations of human existence? Scripture also talks about the division of the sheep and the goats - it seems like somehow we all exit life at the same time and find ourselves in a huge mass of people and we are divided… might the physically dead be frozen in time, waiting for the final days to come? I don’t think God would take away our ability to pray after we die… In his novel, ‘The Great Divorce,’ C.S. Lewis suggests that if we find ourselves in the afterlife and we are preoccupied with the activity of earth instead of heaven, then we will end up in hell.

If those who have departed in Christ were indeed dead, you might have a point. Jesus makes abundantly clear that ‘he who lives and believes in me will NEVER die’, and more, that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is God of the living and not the dead - hence that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are living and not dead. And if alive then perfectly able to pray with us and for us as any person living on Earth is capable of doing.

When I say, “dead” I mean physically dead, not spiritually dead. I’ve been to many funerals - bodies die.

I think one aspect of this issue is the purpose of prayer. I think it may be that prayer is for the living so that we can reach out to God while we still live. Once we are dead and in heaven I think we will communicate with God in a way that is much more profound and powerful than what we can do here, but I don’t think we will be watching the lives of people on earth - Heaven, God, there are much better things for us to do there, I’m sure. Once we are beyond this life, I don’t think we will be concerned with matters of earth. This could be seen as selfish, to die and then put all earthly cares aside, but I don’t think it is. Life is for figuring it out - after life we are free…

 

[withwind]

I think one aspect of this issue is the purpose of prayer. I think it may be that prayer is for the living so that we can reach out to God while we still live. Once we are dead and in heaven I think we will communicate with God in a way that is much more profound and powerful than what we can do here, but I don’t think we will be watching the lives of people on earth - Heaven, God, there are much better things for us to do there, I’m sure. Once we are beyond this life, I don’t think we will be concerned with matters of earth. This could be seen as selfish, to die and then put all earthly cares aside, but I don’t think it is. Life is for figuring it out - after life we are free…

In Catholic, we believe in the communion of Saints. The Saints in Heaven and those on earth are still in one Body. They worship the Lord days and nights and they also intercede for us. It is Love that God allow them to pray for us. If they do not show their love for us, what is it Love that Jesus has been teaching?

 

[FCEGM]

On one hand I agree with you. Getting away and devoting time to living in the leadership of the Spirit and getting away from the influences of the world would be a great blessing.

On the other hand though, I have a very hard time seeing how the lifestyle of monks fits with the life and message of Jesus. “Go out into all the world…” I think Jesus was calling humanity to reject the standards of the world, while remaining in it… if we do not remain in the world how can light shine? We cannot put a candle under a bowl and so hide the light of Christ that is meant to burn within us. We have to be a city on a hill.

Just some thoughts from someone on the journey.

I’ll have more to add when I’m at my own computer, but this from an earlier thread gives a good perspective on monasticism (and is responsive re light of the world):

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4255391&postcount=16

 

[swplan76]

Why thank you, how very gracious of you.

You are aware, I am sure, that we Catholics think of ourselves as Christians, not just that some Christians are present in our Church (if you do not get sarcasm I am pointing out that this comment by you is very offensive). We also view our Church as the Church of which you, as a Christian (which you claim to be and I will not judge as you seem to do to Catholics) are a part of it.

I’m not sure you get my meaning - I think that all branches/denominations/segments of the church have sincere believers and some who are not. I’m not trying to say that its the protestants who have it figured out - every individual congregation will have a varied amount of sincere seekers. I am not the judge and I cannot know for sure what is going on inside everyone I meet and I cannot know with certainty how God will judge the world with justice (his justice is beyond us), but I have been among various types of Christians and I can sense the presence of the Spirit, they are walking in the Spirit while others are not - we can call it discernment - some people walk very close with God while others do not. This may determine salvation - in my mind that makes sense, but God is a gracious God. My wife’s cousin put it to me this way, “some ‘Christians’ will enter heaven only through a refining fire. They didn’t invest themselves in the Kingdom here and now, so the bulk of who they have become in life will be burned away and that gospel seed will pass into heaven.” To put the idea in other words, as we entrust our hearts to His hands, He remakes us and we become more and more prepared for Heaven, more of us is fit for heaven as a result… I don’t know how I see it yet, but I think the idea is interesting nonetheless.

This is not true, questions can be attacks. You have stated that you think we are defending ourselves, we are not, we are just giving you the facts of life as a Catholic.

No, not all of you, mostly just you. There was one other person on here who was speaking to me in this way, but he has since mellowed out.

I think you did come here with a plan and a goal.

I have no desire to force anything to happen. I would hope for God to do what He is already doing in our lives as we seek Him. Outside of that I have no specific objectives. I just want to talk about the issues we face as a church from my perspective, knowledge and experience - I think my perspective makes you uncomfortable and you probably came on to this site to hear people say things that would just make you feel happy about where you already are, but instead you found me. If I bother you this much, please just ignore me - don’t feel that you have to put up with me, just pretend I’m not here. :shrug:

 

[LilyM]

I understand your logic, but you have not provided any scripture or anything that says that God wants us to pray to the dead, or even that they are in a state in which they can hear us. I do not understand the mystery of the afterlife completely and I’m not sure that we can because very few people have made the sort of claim that they have been there. John, in Revelation, points to the idea that in heaven whatever beings are there are **consumed **with God and **consumed **with worshiping Him. If we have the power to communicate with the dead in heaven, is it cruel of us to attempt to distract them from spending time in the presence of God? Might it be that when they are in heaven they are free of the concerns of earth - that the concerns of earth are only a burden for us while we are here and then once we are dead (in body) we are free of the frustrations of human existence? Scripture also talks about the division of the sheep and the goats - it seems like somehow we all exit life at the same time and find ourselves in a huge mass of people and we are divided… might the physically dead be frozen in time, waiting for the final days to come? I don’t think God would take away our ability to pray after we die… In his novel, ‘The Great Divorce,’ C.S. Lewis suggests that if we find ourselves in the afterlife and we are preoccupied with the activity of earth instead of heaven, then we will end up in hell.

For someone who was so insistent a ways back that one probably couldn’t properly serve Christ without a great involvement in the needs and concerns of others, I find it funny that you’d totally flip the rules vis a vis heavenly service of Him and determine that the mere fact of bodily death absolves us from all responsibility to serve and care for our fellow man.

Even the angels involve themselves in the concerns of earth - they are sent as messengers to humans as Gabriel was to Mary, Joseph and the Three Kings, they present our prayers to God a la Revelations. The heavenly saints form a ‘cloud of witnesses’ cheering us on who are still running the earthly race. Does this sound like they view involvement in earthly concerns as a distraction? No more than we do, surely - rather it is a MEANS of worshipping God by serving Him.

Christ certainly maintains the most lively interest in the earthly members of His body, and the heavenly saints who are still part of that same body, and who are like Him as a result, surely imitate Him in this attribute too. And are more effective in it than we can possibly be on earth! ‘Thy will be done - on earth as it is in heaven’.

I think one aspect of this issue is the purpose of prayer. I think it may be that prayer is for the living so that we can reach out to God while we still live. Once we are dead and in heaven I think we will communicate with God in a way that is much more profound and powerful than what we can do here, but I don’t think we will be watching the lives of people on earth - Heaven, God, there are much better things for us to do there, I’m sure. Once we are beyond this life, I don’t think we will be concerned with matters of earth. This could be seen as selfish, to die and then put all earthly cares aside, but I don’t think it is. Life is for figuring it out - after life we are free…

On the contrary. We have better things to do here too, than to get involved in the lives of our fellow men as an end in itself. We have nothing better to do than get involved in their lives when our aim in so doing is to express our love for Him and them as His creatures.

I don’t think that changes in heaven except that the greater love we have for Him there will inspire greater love of our fellow men - a greater fulfilment of EACH of the two great commandments.

 

[jimcav]

There was one other person on here who was speaking to me in this way, but he has since mellowed out.

Yeah, that would be me…

No Steve you don’t make me uncomfortable and you don’t place the seed’s of doubt in me. I just find these types of conversations fruitless and a waste of energy. They never resolve anything, they never lead anywhere, they just fade away after pages of meaningless posts. Nothing from those pages changes anything. I should have never gotten involved and it’s why you will rarely see me in the Non Catholic forum or debating such issues. This just takes away time I should be devoting to God in more fruitful ways.

There are certain things that are, simply because they are. The things that are, are my Church’s teachings. They come from Christ, passed onto the Apostles and disciples and entrusted to the Bishops who entrust them to the priests who pass them onto there followers for years, thousands of years, just like Jesus taught them to do. Should I trust them, or Steve?

This is a living and growing faith, thanks to our Holy See. It is not static. Jesus trusted a certain few to carry on His Church and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, they have… gloriously! So please don’t come along and try to enlighten me on the latest fad in Christianity, like non denominational stuff or the whole mega church deal that seems to be the rage. While your obvious streak of pride in being independent and not a mere follower is noble, pride can be a sin. Also trying to judge other peoples closeness to God as you have done in nearly every thread is dangerous and something only God himself can do, not you or me. And your self teaching on the Bible can also lead you down a false path as you pick and choose what to believe based upon only your very human feelings and emotions. Kind of like a young man reading a soldiers manual, and then calling himself a soldier.

So as you read the Bible and misinterpret John for instance, verily, verily I say to you, except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, you have no life in you, whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the final day

Just a silly tradition that doesn’t speak to our times I suppose…

God Bless…

 

[swplan76]

For someone who was so insistent a ways back that one probably couldn’t properly serve Christ without a great involvement in the needs and concerns of others, I find it funny that you’d totally flip the rules vis a vis heavenly service of Him and determine that the mere fact of bodily death absolves us from all responsibility to serve and care for our fellow man.

I think you have made some good points, but I have seen nothing in scripture that would lead me to your conclusions… If you can present what scripture says on this that would help me understand better - I’ll find some time to do some study of my own as well. When I come upon something like this that sounds logical, but is not presented in scripture (though it may be and I am not aware of it) I usually rest upon this conclusion: If it was important, God would have inspired one of the writers of scripture to include it in the Bible, but since He has not, it must not be something I should concern myself with. The Bible tells how to pray and who to pray to - it does not include any discussion of the need to pray to anyone outside of the members of the trinity (though mostly it focuses on prayer directly to God). If God wanted us to pray to those who have died in order to have them pray for us, it would probably have its own chapter in one of Paul’s letters (I imagine).

Help me out.

Thanks!
Steve

 

[swplan76]

Yeah, that would be me…

No Steve you don’t make me uncomfortable and you don’t place the seed’s of doubt in me. I just find these types of conversations fruitless and a waste of energy. They never resolve anything, they never lead anywhere, they just fade away after pages of meaningless posts. Nothing from those pages changes anything. I should have never gotten involved and it’s why you will rarely see me in the Non Catholic forum or debating such issues. This just takes away time I should be devoting to God in more fruitful ways.

Hey Jim,
I want you to know that this hasn’t been fruitless for me - I’ve been thinking about what people have been saying - I’ve got a bit of a reading list on a few saints - through these discussions I am challenged to explore what and how I understand God.

There are certain things that are, simply because they are. The things that are, are my Church’s teachings. They come from Christ, passed onto the Apostles and disciples and entrusted to the Bishops who entrust them to the priests who pass them onto there followers for years, thousands of years, just like Jesus taught them to do. Should I trust them, or Steve?

Neither? Listen to both, but ultimately, as you find yourself in prayer, it is the Holy Spirit that Jesus has ordained above all to be your teacher and reminder (John 14-16). There might be a church with a pedophile pastor who prepares sermons and people go hear him speak and they are challenged to increase their devotion as a result - was it the pastor who spoke to them, or the Holy Spirit? God uses people who are broken and flawed and none of us can see Him completely clearly, so its important to understand that it isn’t up to us to **make **others see. In fact if I adopt your way of seeing God, I’ll also adopt the things you have missed along with my own shortsightedness. I think Jesus makes a way for us to have the clearest vision of God possible and that is through the Spirit in the passage I cited above. The church has failed us and has failed God in its History - I have and you have - its not us that makes the gospel clear, its Him. So don’t trust me and don’t trust them. Trust Him - He still speaks today.

This is a living and growing faith, thanks to our Holy See. It is not static. Jesus trusted a certain few to carry on His Church and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, they have… gloriously! So please don’t come along and try to enlighten me on the latest fad in Christianity, like non denominational stuff or the whole mega church deal that seems to be the rage.

I haven’t presented any specific suggestions on fads or exploring the latest developments in the larger church. I’m advocating personal surrender to Jesus through the Holy Spirit - that is a very old idea. I’m also advocating renovation, re-envisioning and reclamation of things - I think Jesus calls us to that.

As I have spent time with people in various branches of the larger church I have come to see that as they explore who God is and rethink their past and surrender to a future with Him, God speaks. New developments in the larger church are not outside of His control. Many things God is doing in our present age (fads - you might call them) are really beautiful and shouldn’t just be pushed aside. They might not be for you, but God is using them to reach people.

So as you read the Bible and misinterpret John for instance, verily, verily I say to you, except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, you have no life in you, whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the final day

Just a silly tradition that doesn’t speak to our times I suppose…

God Bless…

I don’t think I would ever say that.

I think it is important for people to develop discernment in which they are comfortable walking in the Spirit and challenging various traditions and rituals… but I don’t think the the eucharist is something that should ever be abolished - I think we should consider how we present it and feel comfortable challenging the way we do it, but we may come to the conclusion that the way we do it is excellent and needs no alteration. I think we have to be comfortable with the idea that the way we do church in any given age may require renovation or rejuvenation.

 

[jimcav]

In fact if I adopt your way of seeing God, I’ll also adopt the things you have missed along with my own shortsightedness. I think Jesus makes a way for us to have the clearest vision of God possible and that is through the Spirit in the passage I cited above. The church has failed us and has failed God in its History - I have and you have - its not us that makes the gospel clear, its Him. So don’t trust me and don’t trust them. Trust Him - He still speaks today.

This is where we truly differ.

Never having been a Catholic, I’m not sure how you can say it failed. I hope you don’t think that because some priests went wrong that the whole Church has failed? I don’t believe my Church has failed. My Church is not one dimensional. It cherishes the Bible, which the Church gave the world, but it continued to grow into the fullness of Christianity that God meant it to be. It has been divinely inspired for over 2000 years now and God will continue to inspire it. We don’t worship the word, we worship Jesus Christ, who through the Holy Spirit, will continue to keep our Church relevant and true to His teachings.

I have to say, that I feel alittle sorry for you, because you are on a journey to find God, but you refuse to look in the right places. I think it takes some guts to go against the one true Church of Jesus Christ and go your own way, and that you as an individual knows best what God taught us, that you don’t trust your fellow man, who is divinely inspired, to be your teacher in all things God, that you don’t believe our Pope to be infallible on the teachings of Christ. The whole “go it on your own journey” that your on right now would scare the heck out of me to be honest! To have no place to call your spiritual home is downright scary to me. Your journey could end tommorrow if you open your eyes and your heart to the Catholic Church, to the sacraments we continue to partake in to nourish our souls, and to the fullness of Christianity as God meant it to be, not the one dimensional faith of Sola Scriptura that you continue to try and make work. Obviously you are not yet happy on your faith journey or you wouldn’t have come here, and remember, you came to us, we didn’t go to you. you are the seeker, not us.

I have to wonder when will Protestants stop “protesting” and come home again? There protest started 1500 years ago, and the thought it is still going on today must be hurting Jesus terribly. Maybe it is time to stop searching and put your ego aside and just come home Steve. I think that if you were to partake in a Catholic Mass and feel the power and truth of Christ in all His Glory, you would be “saved”, you would be home again…

 

[FCEGM]

On one hand I agree with you. Getting away and devoting time to living in the leadership of the Spirit and getting away from the influences of the world would be a great blessing.

On the other hand though, I have a very hard time seeing how the lifestyle of monks fits with the life and message of Jesus. “Go out into all the world…” I think Jesus was calling humanity to reject the standards of the world, while remaining in it… if we do not remain in the world how can light shine? We cannot put a candle under a bowl and so hide the light of Christ that is meant to burn within us. We have to be a city on a hill. Integral to the message of Jesus and the life He calls us to is the understanding that we are meant to find ourselves relevant and present to those among us who do not have the same fire we do. . . .

You have to look at the Person of Our Lord Jesus Christ and His ministry before His Death and Resurrection in order to gain a better understanding of the consistent witness of the Church to, first, the eremitical life, and then the monastic life.

Only Christ Jesus, since He is God and Man, was and is full of all the charisms of life that we could possibly imagine. In His graciousness He allows His brothers and sisters to reflect in their living of His way their own individual expressions of particular charisms. In Jesus’ life we see Him healing the sick, teaching, comforting the poor and the dying (the Good Thief), and praying to His Heavenly Father. So, among His brothers and sisters we see these same charisms reflected: some teach, some preach, some bring healing, some comfort the dying, etc., - all for the glory of God and the furtherance of His Kingdom; so, too, with prayer.

This dimension of the Christian life has far more power to it than most can possibly imagine – and, seemingly, begin to appreciate. When we speak of prayer we usually think of intercessory prayer, i.e., praying for ourselves, loved ones, and friends. Or we can speak of the prayers of praise and thanksgiving that reflect our debt to our Almighty God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is a deeper dimension to prayer, though, as we see in Scripture because there we are told that the Spirit Himself makes intercession within us. The Spirit “groans” with the hunger of love for the Body of Christ He is vivifying.

This hunger of love is what drew Christ to prayer, and continues to draw men and women throughout the ages to seek intimacy with God, offering their lives in an oblation of love to Him, so that the Kingdom of Christ will be seeded in the hearts of men and bear a fruitful harvest for the Master of the Harvest.

You may think of this as a misguided use of one’s life. Why not go out into the world and bring it the knowledge of Christ in a very immediate way? Well, how necessary is the heart to the body? We have feet that can walk to foreign lands, hands that can touch and heal, mouths that can proclaim the Good News, but without a heart full of love all the functions of these parts will be misused. If the heart is not even beating than these parts are useless. So it is with the Body of Christ: some are the feet, some are the mouth, some are the hands – and some, the heart. This is monasticism. It is the heart of the Mystical Body of Christ, His Church. The zeal for Christ and the coming of His Kingdom burns brightly in these monastic “furnaces” of prayer. The power of this prayer made in union with Christ reverberates through the whole Body.

The analogy of the body and the heart pumping blood to the various members enabling them to do their jobs and do them well is a very apt one for the monastic life of the Church. We cannot make the erroneous assumption that because some “work” – namely, the functioning of the heart – is not seen (by the unaided eye), that it, therefore, is of little or no use to the rest of the body. The same can be said of the function of the brain – wasn’t it the Egyptians who discarded the brain during the mummification of corpses because they didn’t see the use for it? If we look, though, at an EKG or EEG, or an X-ray, or do open-heart surgery, we can see very well the functions of these organs, though we may not understand them completely.

The same, again, is true of the man or woman who enters a monastery or is called to the life of a hermit. To the busy, work-oriented world (including the world of the Christianity) they may appear to be foggy-minded dreamers, at best, or lazy louts, at worst; but what are they to the “X-ray vision” of God? The Church recognizes that the prayer of these monastics and hermits is what gives power to the rest of the Body of Christ to function. Just as our work for the Lord must be formed and informed by prayer, so it is the whole Body; those whose vocation is prayer assist those who work in more visible ways. It is in their intercession before the Throne of God joined as it is to the one intercession of Christ – be it in the dim-list cloister or on some solitary mountain – that sends the power of the Holy Spirit surging through the rest of the Body enabling it to do its work. Prayer IS their work.

continued. . .