Jesus is fully God

[chefmomster2]

This still implies that Jesus’ Divinity was separate from His humanity…

It not only implies it! It is true! They are two distinct natures of Jesus.

"In the single person of Jesus he has both a human and divine nature, God and man. The **divine nature was not changed when the Word became flesh (John 1:1, 14). Instead, the Word was joined with humanity (Col. 2:9). Jesus’ divine nature was not altered. Also, Jesus is not merely a man who “had God within Him,” nor is he a man who “manifested the God principle.” ** He is God in flesh, second person of the Trinity. “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.” (Heb. 1:3). Jesus’ two natures are not “mixed together” (Eutychianism), nor are they combined into a new God-man nature (Monophysitism). They are separate yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus. This is called the Hypostatic Union.

This means that the man Jesus could lay claim to the glory He had with the Father before the world was made (John 17:5),** claim that He descended from heaven** (John 3:13), and also claim omnipresence (Matt. 28:20). *All of these are divine qualities that are laid claim to by Jesus; therefore, the attributes of the divine properties were claimed by the person of Jesus./B]

1 Tim. 2:5 says, “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” Right now, there is a man in heaven on the throne of God. He is our advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1). He is our Savior (Titus 2:13). He is our Lord (Rom. 10:9-10). He is Jesus.

carm.org/jesus-two-natures

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Let me make a really poor example that may help…

Take the case of the lowly tomato. You have heard the debate about whether it is a fruit or a vegetable? Scientifically it is a fruit. They develop from the ovary in the flower and contain seeds. So it is a fruit, right?

Well, not so fast! It is considered a vegetable in culinary terms since it is used in savory applications in cooking.

The fact that it is a fruit for scientists does not diminish the tomato’s vegetable designation for cooks. Its use as a vegetable does not diminish its scientific labeling as a fruit.

It is both! But all wrapped up in one! And…

It is not PART fruit and PART vegetable. It can’t be divided. There is no fruit part and no vegetable part. They work together in the one food.*

 

[catholictiger]

I can provide you with something that will help you to work through many difficult passages that seem to show either that Jesus is God, and that he is man and how those can work together.

There is a rule you can apply to the scripture that will help you answer these questions. Jesus is both Divine and a servant at the same time. So if the scripture talks about Jesus less than the father it is the forma servi, or Jesus in the form of a servant. When it talks about Jesus being equal to the father it is talking about the forma dei or Jesus in the form of God.

now to the discussion

and fully man.

I’ve been having a conversation with a catholic about this for several weeks. Bear with me as I go between websites to get the conversation over here. I’m positive I’m right and she’s pretty well told me I’m crazy.

It all started out with her saying that God has always been and that Jesus didn’t come along until much later.

Her: Why do you feel this way? So God is also Jesus? Is it in the Bible stating so? I’m curious now.

There is the trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Why would Jesus be praying to His Father just before he got arrested, while His Apostles slept?

Simply this is forma servi, Jesus in his human nature would pray to the father

Why does Jesus say, if it’s your will Father, let your will be.

This isn’t the exact wording, but you know what I mean.

There’s many more incidents when Jesus is talking to His Father.

again forma servi

You know don’t forget God is the Almighty and Jesus is not only Holy, but also man.

Me: Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. Jesus has always been and always will be. Jesus didn’t just come along, He’s always been, always will be. Jesus IS God. Jesus became man, with all the weaknesses of man. But He never ceased being God. Never sinned.

decent response but you didn’t address him talking to the father

Her: Show me where Jesus is God in the Bible, because some verses then just don’t make any sense.

Even though he was in the form of God he did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at, rather he emptied himself taking the form of a slave being born in the likeness of man. (note this is off the top of my head my words may be slightly off)

Me: Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God. The Bible presents Christ as unique. He is both a perfect man and is co-equal and co-eternal with God the Father. He is one person with two complete natures - human and divine. Jesus Christ was God incarnate and he also was a complete human being. These two natures have come together into the one person of Jesus Christ.

He is “the second person of the Trinity” - He arrived here fully with the Holy Spirit - always was/always is - the Great “I Am”

Immanuel/Emmanuel = Jesus Christ = "God With Us. Please read John 1:1, read all of John.

Her: where in the bible does Jesus say I am god worship me.? Answer me that.

Why does it need to say this? but again I would refer you to the passage in the previous passage. The fact that Jesus was both fully man and fully divine and the fact that you can’t see God’s nature, or his divinity, it would be very strange for Jesus to say worship me.

Me: I can’t believe this. Why not just ask your priest?

Her: i don’t need to ask anybody. God gave me the answer. If Jesus was God why didn’t he do anything until he was baptized. If he did then the holy spirit didnt need to come.

Me: I can’t believe this.
@@@@@
She won’t talk to me anymore and is calling me nasty names everywhere.

Am I all wrong?
no you are spot on, I’m sorry she has had such a negative response to you,not sure if this would help but you could pick out a Catechism passage and show how Jesus is divine and human.

 

[catholictiger]

So are you saying that you can separate Jesus humanity from His Divinity?

If His human nature was praying to the Father and it was His human nature that was not greater than the Father, then you are discounting His fully Divine incarnation within His humanity.

.

see below

Council of Chalcedon

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; (ἐν δύο φύσεσιν ἀσυγχύτως, ἀτρέπτως, ἀδιαιρέτως, ἀχωρίστως – in duabus naturis inconfuse, immutabiliter, indivise, inseparabiliter) the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person (prosopon) and one Subsistence (hypostasis), not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God (μονογενῆ Θεόν), the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

 

[EveningSkye111]

Catholictiger, thanks for your responses. I’m going to ask her to see this, but I doubt she will. She’s ignoring me completely.

 

[Philthy]

This still implies that Jesus’ Divinity was separate from His humanity…

No it doesn’t. It simply means you can’t fully comprehend God, which is not surprising at all. Jesus is both fully God and fully human and it represents the greatest mystery of our faith IMHO. During the Nicene Creed that was presented above, we bow at the precise moment that it is professed, “By the power of the holy Spirit He was born of the virgin Mary and became man.”

 

[ROBO_the_First]

You are correct. There were some early Christians who argued that Jesus was a man first who became God later. The Church definitely rejected this.

You are correct! There was also much heresy in the other direction, as well. There were many members of the Johannine community (disciples of St. John) that insisted Christ was of one nature, entirely God…and rejected the truth of his humanity. Much to the chagrin of St. John. There has been much heresy throughout the life of the Church…still is and likely will be until His return. Jesus Christ possessed two natures…he was fully God AND fully man. Pretty much one of the pillars of the faith…some people are entirely mislead.

Anyways…sorry to go off on a tangent there…wasn’t directed at you as I agree with you

God bless