Jesus lied.

[hippyprincess]

Today I received an interesting email full of Bible quotes demonstrating how Jesus lied. He says, quite clearly, that whatever you pray for shall be granted, as long as you have true faith. Even if you pray that mountains will be tossed into the sea, God will fulfill your wish. Obviously, this is not true at all.

Here are the quotes:

1. And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will happen. “And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.” (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)
2. Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)
3. Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20 NAS)
4. Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25 NAB)
5. And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Luke 11:9-13 NAB)
6. And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 NAB)
7. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. (John 15:7 NAB)
8. It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you. (John 15:16 NAB)
9. On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you. Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete. (John 16:23-24 NAB)

The Bible does NOT say “God will consider your prayers, and act as he thinks appropriately.” It does not say “your prayers MIGHT be granted.” Jesus clearly states, with conviction, that anything you want shall be given to you.

Also, please don’t say “you can’t have everything you want.” Even if I did believe in God, and believed wishes were divinely granted, I would still think this is a bad idea. This would cause chaos, and just be a ridiculous expectation.

If you have any Bible quotes saying “prayers will be granted if God feels like it,” please let me know. This email interested me greatly because, according to Christianity, Jesus never sinned.

 

[Mintaka]

If you had faith, you would obey all God’s commands. You would love God wholeheartedly. You would want only to do His will, and you would do it. You would want to suffer for His sake and for the sake of others, and You would do that too, making your life a constant offering.

You would become holy. You would be like God.

And then, miracles would happen, because God would be able to work through you. You would ask for things and they would happen, because you would know what God wanted you to ask for. You would be like a saint in heaven, even while still alive.

And indeed, there are some people who live like this. They are called “wonderworkers” as a technical term. They are people like Padre Pio, or St. Martin de Porres, or Ven. Solanus Casey in our own United States. Padre Pio knew everything that was in people’s minds. St. Martin de Porres teleported a whole class of novices home to their monastery, because he didn’t want them to be late for dinner. Solanus Casey cured the sick, did great wonders, and even (from one account I read) multiplied ice cream cones to make sure there was enough for everybody! It’s ludicrously wondrous. But modern people saw things like this happen before their eyes.

If we already were what God means us all to become in Heaven, we would all be able to work such wonders, because God would always be working through us. We would be willing instruments of God’s providence. But as yet, most of us don’t even have as much as a mustard seed’s worth of faith. We have to work on that. Wonderworkers are a foretaste of what we will become.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Hello Hippyprincess,

They have a little catch on all this. That all prayer must be in accordance with the will of the Father for it to be granted.

There are other disclaimers and things that can affect prayer. But, I think they make some good points on this, while at the same time when they make lousy points it always ends up meaning God only choses the strong to undure suffering, blah blah.

The arguments seem to go in a predictable pattern.

 

[hippyprincess]

If you had faith, you would obey all God’s commands. You would love God wholeheartedly. You would want only to do His will, and you would do it. You would want to suffer for His sake and for the sake of others.

You would become holy. You would be like God.

And then, miracles would happen, because God would be able to work through you. You would ask for things and they would happen, because you would know what God wanted you to ask for. You would be like a saint in heaven, even while still alive.

I don’t have faith, and I don’t claim to have it. However, my dear grandmother, who is one of the most religious people I know, certainly has faith. I’ve never heard my grandmother say a bad thing about anyone in her life, and she is always loving and pious. She clearly loves God as she would a family member, and follows the Christian teaching.

Currently, she is dying in a hospital bed, afflicted with cancer. The illogicality of it all astounds me: if you are such a firm believer, and “one of God’s children,” you should not be suffering and dying a painful death. It just proves another innumerable contradiction of Christianity.

Half my family, especially my grandfather, has been praying for hours daily for my grandmother to be well again. According to the Bible teachings, their prayers should be granted; they were done with good intentions by people of faith.

Their prayers were not granted; Jesus lied.

 

[hippyprincess]

Hello Hippyprincess,

They have a little catch on all this. That all prayer must be in accordance with the will of the Father for it to be granted.

God wills people to be raped and murdered? God wills innocent people to fall ill? God wills genocide? Certainly there have been prayers by people of true faith wishing to stop these atrocities. By your logic, prayers will be granted unless they interfere with the will of God. Therefore, God is willing murder.

Also, can you please provide the Bible quotes that prove this? I have not found any so far, and I’d like to read them.

Thanks.

 

[JJ59]

Mintaka, I thought you gave an excellent response. I don’t think I could improve on anything you said!

I will, however, give this website. If the OP is honestly searching for truth and a religious discussion and not just here to slander the Bible and Christianity, here’s a good website showing the Christian perspective on several of those verses. It also has a bunch of excellent articles relating to the Christian faith:

tektonics.org/lp/prayfor.html

God Bless,

 

[Luke65]

If you had faith, you would obey all God’s commands. You would love God wholeheartedly. You would want only to do His will, and you would do it. You would want to suffer for His sake and for the sake of others, and You would do that too, making your life a constant offering.

You would become holy. You would be like God.

Right, and what greater miracles are there than these?

1. And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will happen. “And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.” (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

True, but did you know that mountains are metaphors for great nations or kingdoms, or empires? And that the sea is a metaphor for the unbelieving world? So that throwing a mountain into the sea is metaphorical for a godly nation turning heathen…

“The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea.” (Revelation 8:8)

Hmm, I wonder what great nation that could be? Of course, he could also be describing a comet, or both, you just never know! (See St. Hildegard’s “great nation” prophecy)

1. Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)

I testify!

If you have any Bible quotes saying “prayers will be granted if God feels like it,” please let me know.

“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matthew 6:7-8)

Anyhow, its clear you hate the truth, and you will not be able to hear the voice of God until you change. However, now you can’t say you were given no warning.

 

[StrawberryJam]

God wills people to be raped and murdered? God wills innocent people to fall ill? God wills genocide? Certainly there have been prayers by people of true faith wishing to stop these atrocities. By your logic, prayers will be granted unless they interfere with the will of God. Therefore, God is willing murder.

Also, can you please provide the Bible quotes that prove this? I have not found any so far, and I’d like to read them.

Thanks.

Do you mean you want bible quotes on proving that prayers must be in accordance to God’s will?

Or that God has willed rape murder and people to fall ill?

God is willing to murder, and has. Vis a vis through men. Telling them to do so. I am confused at what I should be answering.

Remember, the bible is full of bloodshed.

 

[erikd]

Hipppyprincess:

If everyone in the world who had faith could take mountains and throw them into the ocean, just to let off some steam, can you imagine what the planet would look like? That’s just a practical way of saying that maybe these quotes were taken out of context when taken literally.

The truth is that Scripture is taken out of context every day by many people, some of faith and some of a lack of faith. But the reality is that for a believer, these quotes have meaning and they are by no means lies.

When you were younger, did your parents ever discipline you? What did you think of being disciplined? I know I didn’t like it but I later appreciated it. The reason is because suffering has a great deal to teach us. Imagine what life would be like if you were able to do everything you wanted and nothing bad ever hapenned to you. You would be unskilled in dealing with problems and unable to cope with reality if you ever came across it.

The Lord gives you everything you need to lead a productive life and to achieve happiness. He asks for nothing in return except that you fill yourself with love and distribute it plentifully.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Right, and what greater miracles are there than these?

The incarnation?

True, but did you know that mountains are metaphors for great nations or kingdoms, or empires? And that the sea is a metaphor for the unbelieving world? So that throwing a mountain into the sea is metaphorical for a godly nation turning heathen…

Or God throwing his children into the abyss?

“The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea.” (Revelation 8:8)

I rest my case.
He sacrifices his children into the sea of “death”. Not good.

Hmm, I wonder what great nation that could be?

Surely, you think it is the Catholic Church, no doubt.

Of course, he could also be describing a comet, or both, you just never know! (See St. Hildegard’s “great nation” prophecy)

Why see St. Hildegard’s “great nation” prophecy. It is private revelation. No catholic has to believe it at all. Sorry, but that is not a good defense. Your church does not even allow you to make it one.

I testify!

? How have you?

“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matthew 6:7-8)

Relevancy? I am not Pagan, nor is the OP. Find another cherry picking off topic non relevant passage to post.

Anyhow, its clear you hate the truth, and you will not be able to hear the voice of God until you change. However, now you can’t say you were given no warning.

You are taking over the role of Jesus and you don’t even see it in your radicalism.

 

[Sarah_Angel]

I don’t have faith, and I don’t claim to have it. However, my dear grandmother, who is one of the most religious people I know, certainly has faith. I’ve never heard my grandmother say a bad thing about anyone in her life, and she is always loving and pious. She clearly loves God as she would a family member, and follows the Christian teaching.

Currently, she is dying in a hospital bed, afflicted with cancer. The illogicality of it all astounds me: if you are such a firm believer, and “one of God’s children,” you should not be suffering and dying a painful death. It just proves another innumerable contradiction of Christianity.

Half my family, especially my grandfather, has been praying for hours daily for my grandmother to be well again. According to the Bible teachings, their prayers should be granted; they were done with good intentions by people of faith.

Their prayers were not granted; Jesus lied.

I think you’re being a bit overly-simplistic about this whole thing. Jesus never said that we will never suffer, nor that our suffering will cease on Earth if we believe in Him. However, things will always work out for the better. Remember that your grandmother is not immortal on this Earth. Even if she survives this cancer, she will eventually die and therefore leave this Earth in some other way. I’m sorry if that sounds depressing, but it’s the truth.

However, a crucial belief in Christianity is that Earth isn’t our home; Heaven is. The point of our life on Earth is to prepare for life in Heaven. We as Christians live on Earth as aliens, awaiting the day when we will be brought to Heaven. So your family members’ prayers for your grandmother are not wasted. When she dies, she will be healed of her pain and suffering.

Also, have you considered that maybe your arguments are age-old? I hope you didn’t post your opening statement because you expected us to be taken-aback and then believe that maybe Jesus did lie to us.

At any rate, I don’t expect you to be changed by my post, but I hope that this has brought a new light to what Christianity teaches, and that you will not reject truth because of your pride in your own beliefs.

 

[hippyprincess]

Do you mean you want bible quotes on proving that prayers must be in accordance to God’s will?

Or that God has willed rape murder and people to fall ill?

God is willing to murder, and has. Vis a vis through men. Telling them to do so. I am confused at what I should be answering.

Remember, the bible is full of bloodshed.

I apologize for being unclear. I’m very well aware of the Abrahamic God’s murderous and genocidal ways, but I was referring to your statement that “all prayer must be in accordance with the will of the Father for it to be granted.”

Thank you.

 

[centurionguard]

From your very first statement I knew that you have great misunderstanding in scripture.
So many people fault scripture by interpreting it literally.

WRONG

True, but did you know that mountains are metaphors for great nations or kingdoms, or empires? And that the sea is a metaphor for the unbelieving world? So that throwing a mountain into the sea is metaphorical for a godly nation turning heathen…

The mountains that Jesus speaks about are the hurtles of imperfections deep inside your heart and soul.
That is the great mountains that Jesus speaks about. Read Saint John of the Cross.
I gather that you have never heard of the great mountain of mortification of the soul.
A lifelong journey toward perfection and complete humble mortification of all the human primitive senses and knowledge of what is. there is absolutely NOTHING in common between God the Son in Jesus Christ and His domain in Heaven and between this primitive world which is only a spiritual school of God’s grace humbly accepted to begin your spiritual journey.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I apologize for being unclear. I’m very well aware of the Abrahamic God’s murderous and genocidal ways, but I was referring to your statement that “all prayer must be in accordance with the will of the Father for it to be granted.”

Thank you.

My bad.

So the Abrahamic God does not require prayers to be answered in accordance with his will?
News to me.

Thanks for the correction. I was taught here, that all prayers must be in accordance to the will of God to be answered.

I guess I got bad information here.



Sorry about that!

 

[hippyprincess]

I think StrawberryJam did a good enough job of refuting this, but I’d like to add my two cents.

“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matthew 6:7-8)

Firstly, I am not a pagan.

Secondly, I think that this quote means praying in excess will not help you. It implies that God knows what your prayers are for before you ask them of him. I don’t see how this indicates that God will answer your prayers conditionally.

Jesus taught “knock, and the door shall be opened.” Not “knock, and God won’t open the door if he doesn’t think it’s necessary.”

Anyhow, its clear you hate the truth, and you will not be able to hear the voice of God until you change. However, now you can’t say you were given no warning.

What a presumptuous statement. I don’t “hate” the truth; I seek it. Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

 

[davidv]

I think StrawberryJam did a good enough job of refuting this, but I’d like to add my two cents.

Firstly, I am not a pagan.

Secondly, I think that this quote means praying in excess will not help you. It implies that God knows what your prayers are for before you ask them of him. I don’t see how this indicates that God will answer your prayers conditionally.

Jesus taught “knock, and the door shall be opened.” Not “knock, and God won’t open the door if he doesn’t think it’s necessary.”

What a presumptuous statement. I don’t “hate” the truth; I seek it. Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

In the Epistle of James we see:

You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

James 4:3​

To me this suggests that our prayer needs to be united to God’s will.

My other suggestion is that we don’t always like God’s answer. Sometimes, His answer, rather than “yes” is “no”, or “not yet”.

 

[hippyprincess]

Hipppyprincess:

If everyone in the world who had faith could take mountains and throw them into the ocean, just to let off some steam, can you imagine what the planet would look like?

If you hadn’t read what I wrote in the last paragraph of my OP, I completely agree! The world would be in chaos, and the concept that everyone’s whim should be granted is ridiculous.

But it’s also what the Bible teaches.

That’s just a practical way of saying that maybe these quotes were taken out of context when taken literally.

The truth is that Scripture is taken out of context every day by many people, some of faith and some of a lack of faith. But the reality is that for a believer, these quotes have meaning and they are by no means lies.

I have read the context around the 8 quotes cited and found them to be well in context. Are you talking about a specific quote I cited that you believe to be out of context? If so, please let me know so I can study it further. From my observation, the bible CLEARLY states that all prayers will be answered.

When you were younger, did your parents ever discipline you? What did you think of being disciplined? I know I didn’t like it but I later appreciated it. The reason is because suffering has a great deal to teach us.

I understand where you’re trying to go with this analogy, but it really isn’t applicable. When one is disciplined, it’s because they do something wrong. You can’t honestly say that an innocent infant slaughtered by God has done anything to deserve “hellfire.” The Bible says that a son shall not be responsible for his father’s sins.

“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.”

Deuteronomy 24:16

 

[StrawberryJam]

Hippyprincess,

I am not knowledgeable about the christian beliefs. Just learning. I think you bring up a good point, but I really don’t feel I have answered anything or helped you here.

It’s just my take on this, no more than that.

 

[erikd]

I don’t have faith, and I don’t claim to have it. However, my dear grandmother, who is one of the most religious people I know, certainly has faith. I’ve never heard my grandmother say a bad thing about anyone in her life, and she is always loving and pious. She clearly loves God as she would a family member, and follows the Christian teaching.

Currently, she is dying in a hospital bed, afflicted with cancer. The illogicality of it all astounds me: if you are such a firm believer, and “one of God’s children,” you should not be suffering and dying a painful death. It just proves another innumerable contradiction of Christianity.

Half my family, especially my grandfather, has been praying for hours daily for my grandmother to be well again. According to the Bible teachings, their prayers should be granted; they were done with good intentions by people of faith.

Their prayers were not granted; Jesus lied.

Hippyprincess:

You and I have something in common. My father in law, at 75 years of age, is dying a very slow and painful death right now. He has mesothelioma, a disease he received through a lifetime of work and supporting his wife and three children. This disease fills his lungs with fluid and will one day, probably in six months or less, make him unable to breathe. Yet, he has grown stronger to God through this experience, and so have I. I pray for him daily. I have become a Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion so that I could give him Communion at his house every Sunday. He is elated and very much at peace, just as I hope your grandmother is too.

Some prayers are answered with silence. It is the prudential judgement of the Lord that we put our faith in, just as we put trust and faith in our parents when we were children, just as we put faith in our teachers when we were students. Many times in my life, my parents and my teachers said things that seemed to me to be untrue or just downright ridiculous. As you experience life, however, those things come back to you in the form of lessons in life. All these experiences have something to offer to you, to your grandmother, to my father in law, and to all the combined families involved.

I will keep your grandmother in my prayers. I don’t know her but she seems worthy of not just my prayers but of those of everyone reading this post.

 

[Luke65]

Firstly, I am not a pagan.

Secondly, I think that this quote means praying in excess will not help you. It implies that God knows what your prayers are for before you ask them of him. I don’t see how this indicates that God will answer your prayers conditionally.

Jesus taught “knock, and the door shall be opened.” Not “knock, and God won’t open the door if he doesn’t think it’s necessary.”

The point I was making, which I underlined, is that God gives us what we need, not necessarily what we want.

What a presumptuous statement.

Well, you’re right about that. I apologize. And I hope you do find the truth.