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paarsurrey
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paarsurrey;2544737:
HiNot much utility?
You seem to be angry; when you really calm down, tell me, so that we may continue our discussion in peace.
Thanks
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Verisimilitude
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Rodrigo_Bivar
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This is an interesting topic so thank you Paarsurrey for bringing it up.
The lack of serious research on this issue is sad but I would like to add some points:
The early symbol of Christianity was the fish.
Hence the Ahmadiyya perpetrators of this fraud did not understand the history of Christian symbolism.
So it seems strange that it should mention Jesus. Also, as a Jew Jesus seemed to have understood Messiah in the same way as a Muslim does.
On closer examination of all available information I find no eye-witness account of Jesus in India.
The lack of serious research on this issue is sad but I would like to add some points:
- The use by Holger Kersten of the discredit Shroud of Turin does not do much to enhance his scholarly reputation.
- The original Buddhist manuscript cited by Nicholas Notovitch are not eye-witness accounts but a description or Jesus by merchants who brought the tale to the Monastery of Himis.
truthbeknown.com/jesus_in_india.htm - There were more than one Issa/Isha in India - because the word is totally different from Yeshua. It is only a coincidence that Yeshua is translated to the Greeks as Iesus.
- There is no evidence that the tomb at Rozabal is occupied. The footprints were carved - not real. Hindu gods are also sometimes depicted with nails through their footprints. See the link above.
- The discover of the crucifix and rosary in Rozabal which is claimed to be the proof that Jesus is buried there is absurd.
proaxis.com/~deardorj/legends.htm
The rosary was introduced into Christianity by the desert fathers in the fourth century. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary
The early symbol of Christianity was the fish.
Hence the Ahmadiyya perpetrators of this fraud did not understand the history of Christian symbolism.
- The Bhavishya Purana is an ancient Sanskrit text that was written before 3BC
So it seems strange that it should mention Jesus. Also, as a Jew Jesus seemed to have understood Messiah in the same way as a Muslim does.
- The name Yuz Asaf ascribed to Jesus was really taken from a Muslim source of the 17th century. Tahrik-e-Kashmir (A History of Kashmir) compiled in the 17th Century mendhak.com/paranormal/mythology/show.php?id=24
On closer examination of all available information I find no eye-witness account of Jesus in India.
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paarsurrey
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Verisimilitude
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paarsurrey
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Hi
Three days (and of course three nights) is a good period for reflection. You never know one could change one’s heart in a moment, so three days is a reasonable period for change of heart and mind. You may take your own time if you like, though my prescription would remain the same for you.Please RELAX, we are friends and Catholics love others.No compulsion, peace
Thanks
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JFonseka
Guest
Similarly I can write a book about how Jesus also visited Australia and that it cannot be disproved. Credibility of these people writing all these is flawed.
And I think old nick is back to create more confusion amongst people…It has been said in the Bible, false prophets will come, and I think Mohammed is one of them.
And I think old nick is back to create more confusion amongst people…It has been said in the Bible, false prophets will come, and I think Mohammed is one of them.
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JFonseka
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dolphinlove
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Fonseka,
You are right, Jesus did come to Australia, I spoke with him up at Jenolan caves up in the blue mountains for 23 years. He specifically told me that i can also become a prophet if i tell people i saw him in the cave.
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paarsurrey
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Rodrigo_Bivar
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I’m here to discuss this issue with you paarsurrey? Why are you ignoring me? See my post above?
Thanks,
Rodrigo
Thanks,
Rodrigo
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paarsurrey
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JFonseka
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JFonseka;2545445:
Well I guess that’s a good point you make, so I agree with you on this
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
Have ever the account of crucifixion as mentioned in gospels been Cross examined as per the present established standards of eye-witnessing?
Never, ever this has been done, only accepted blindly or with blinded trust whatever they have written.
There is however no compulsion for a Catholic to believe what I say. But there is no harm to make a little research in this regard and form your own opinion while remaining a steadfast Catholic.
Thanks
The ultimate truth about Jesus is:
(Firstly), JesusYeshuaIssa did not leave anything revealed on him from GodAllahYHWH in the form of written stone tablets as was in case of Moses, (Secondly) or anything written by JesusYeshuaIssa himself when he left from Galilee, after the incident of Crucifixion, alongwith his mother Mary in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel, he died natural and peaceful death in Kashmir, India.
Jesus left nothing behind authenticated by him, in possession of the Church.
We do respect the NTGospels which (Thirdly) have account of Jesus life, but it does not have much utility for us Non-Catholics and more than a book of history subject to scrutiny, internal as well as external, for each event for truth on merit.
Thanks
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Rodrigo_Bivar
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What are you talking about, paarsurrey?
Who witnessed Muhammad’s conversation with Jibril or let alone cross-examined the non-existent eyewitness account of Allah’s revelation?
The facts are that the four gospels are generally held up to theological standards as eyewitness accounts of the crucifixion.
The ‘Jesus in India’ account was never even that. There were no eyewitness accounts dating from the time of Jesus. All purported ‘eyewitness’ accounts prove to be highly questionable.
One of the central planks of the proposition had been debunked long ago;
westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/Tibet/tibet.html
Jesus in Tibet
A Modern Myth
Robert M. Price
The Fourth R
Volume 14, 3
May/June 2001
Due to copyright considerations I cannot reproduce the article here but you can see Notovich’s account and Swami Abhedananda’s accounts are either untrue or distorted. The latter didn’t even understand the original document - but latter versions of the myth claims he saw a Bengali translation in the lama monastery - which is false - he saw only a Tibetan manuscript which he didn’t understand.
Note that Abhedananda only saw what purported to be the Gospel of Saint Issa - which is not the same thing as an account of Jesus staying in the Himis Monastery. The Gospel of Saint Issa ends with Jesus being crucified and buried by Pontius Pilate - it doesn’t say anything about Jesus being saved from crucifixion and returning to India.
One more point I’d like to stress - the purported Ahmediyya tomb of Jesus in Srinagar, Kashmir is a hoax, in my opinion - based on the carving of the crucifix and rosaries. I’ve read somewhere they were found BENEATH the carving of the feet - but they are carvings. Nothing more.
Who witnessed Muhammad’s conversation with Jibril or let alone cross-examined the non-existent eyewitness account of Allah’s revelation?
The facts are that the four gospels are generally held up to theological standards as eyewitness accounts of the crucifixion.
The ‘Jesus in India’ account was never even that. There were no eyewitness accounts dating from the time of Jesus. All purported ‘eyewitness’ accounts prove to be highly questionable.
One of the central planks of the proposition had been debunked long ago;
westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/Tibet/tibet.html
Jesus in Tibet
A Modern Myth
Robert M. Price
The Fourth R
Volume 14, 3
May/June 2001
Due to copyright considerations I cannot reproduce the article here but you can see Notovich’s account and Swami Abhedananda’s accounts are either untrue or distorted. The latter didn’t even understand the original document - but latter versions of the myth claims he saw a Bengali translation in the lama monastery - which is false - he saw only a Tibetan manuscript which he didn’t understand.
Note that Abhedananda only saw what purported to be the Gospel of Saint Issa - which is not the same thing as an account of Jesus staying in the Himis Monastery. The Gospel of Saint Issa ends with Jesus being crucified and buried by Pontius Pilate - it doesn’t say anything about Jesus being saved from crucifixion and returning to India.
One more point I’d like to stress - the purported Ahmediyya tomb of Jesus in Srinagar, Kashmir is a hoax, in my opinion - based on the carving of the crucifix and rosaries. I’ve read somewhere they were found BENEATH the carving of the feet - but they are carvings. Nothing more.
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
To clarify about the crucifix and rosary - they may not even be carvings at all.
Some written and oral tradition assert that after death Yuz Asaf was entombed in the old section of Srinagar, in Anzimar in the Khanjar (or Khaniyar) quarter.34 Tradition has it that the tomb, about which a small building was long ago constructed, has been under constant watch by a succession of guardians ever since Yuz Asaf’s supposed burial there. On the floor next to his grave it was noted by Hassnain that much candle-wax had accumulated, and upon carefully scraping it away at one corner of the tombstone, he discovered a crucifix and a rosary that had long been embedded.
proaxis.com/~deardorj/legends.htm
Some written and oral tradition assert that after death Yuz Asaf was entombed in the old section of Srinagar, in Anzimar in the Khanjar (or Khaniyar) quarter.34 Tradition has it that the tomb, about which a small building was long ago constructed, has been under constant watch by a succession of guardians ever since Yuz Asaf’s supposed burial there. On the floor next to his grave it was noted by Hassnain that much candle-wax had accumulated, and upon carefully scraping it away at one corner of the tombstone, he discovered a crucifix and a rosary that had long been embedded.
proaxis.com/~deardorj/legends.htm
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KarenNC
Guest
Personal revelation to another person is not something that lends itself to “rational” discussion or “proof.” By its very nature it cannot be proven or disproven. One either accepts it on faith or one does not. If you accept on faith that this revelation is “complete and without doubt and requires no external witnessing” then to ask for external proof of it is totally irrelevant—you will believe it to be so regardless of any external evidence to the contrary.
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JFonseka
Guest
Very good post Kate.
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
In the OP I did give only the itroductory passage of Holger Kersten’s book “Jesus Lived in India”. I now give another passage from its summary:
sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm
The Russian scholar, Nicolai Notovich, was the first to suggest that Christ may have gone to India. In 1887, Notovich, a Russian scholar and Orientalist, arrived in Kashmir during one of several journeys to the Orient. At the Zoji-la pass Notovich was a guest in a Buddhist monastery, where a monk told him of the bhodisattva saint called “Issa”. Notovich was stunned by the remarkable parallels of Issa’s teachings and martyrdom with that of Christ’s life, teachings and crucifixion.
For about sixteen years, Christ travelled through Turkey, Persia, Western Europe and possibly England. He finally arrived with Mary to a place near Kashmir, where she died. After many years in Kashmir, teaching to an appreciative population, who venerated him as a great prophet, reformer and saint, he died and was buried in a tomb in Kashmir itself.
The first step in Christ’s trail after the Crucifixion is found in the Persian scholar F. Mohammed’s historical work “Jami-ut-tuwarik” which tells of Christ’s arrival in the kingdom of Nisibis, by royal invitation. (Nisibis is today known as Nusaybin in Turkey) . This is reiterated in the Imam Abu Jafar Muhammed’s “Tafsi-Ibn-i-Jamir at-tubri.” Kersten found that in both Turkey and Persia there are ancient stories of a saint called “Yuz Asaf” (“Leader of the Healed”), whose behaviour, miracles and teachings are remarkably similar to that of Christ.
The many Islamic and Hindu historical works recording local history and legends of kings, noblemen and saints of the areas thought to be travelled by Jesus also give evidence of a Christ like man; the Koran, for example, refers to Christ as “Issar”. Further east, the Kurdish tribes of Eastern Anatolia have several stories describing Christ’s stay in Eastern Turkey after his resurrection. These traditional legends have been ignored by the theological community.
Kersten also suggests that prior to Christ’s mission in the Middle East, he may have been exposed to Buddhist teachings in Egypt. After his birth in Bethlehem, his family fled to Egypt to avoid Herod’s persecution. Surprisingly some scholars now acknowledge that Buddhist schools probably existed in Alexandria long before the Christian era.
More clues are drawn from the Apocrypha. These are texts said to have been written by the Apostles but which are not officially accepted by the Church. Indeed, the Church regards them as heresy since a substantial amount of the Apocrypha directly contradicts Church dogma and theology.
The Apocryphal ‘Acts of Thomas’, for example, tell how Christ met Thomas several times after the Crucifixion. In fact they tell us how Christ sent Thomas to teach his spirituality in India. This is corroborated by evidence found in the form of stone inscriptions at Fatehpur Sikri, near the Taj Mahal, in Northern India.
They include “Agrapha”, which are sayings of Christ that don’t exist in the mainstream Bible. Their grammatical form is most similar to that of the Apocryphal gospel of Thomas. This is but one example giving credibility to the idea that texts not recognised by the Church hold important clues about Christ’s true life and his teachings.
This is given just for information of the members here, no Catholics are suggested to change their faith; a different opinion always adds to the steadfastness of a faithful on truth,it does not weaken it, in my opinion.
Thanks
In the OP I did give only the itroductory passage of Holger Kersten’s book “Jesus Lived in India”. I now give another passage from its summary:
sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm
The Russian scholar, Nicolai Notovich, was the first to suggest that Christ may have gone to India. In 1887, Notovich, a Russian scholar and Orientalist, arrived in Kashmir during one of several journeys to the Orient. At the Zoji-la pass Notovich was a guest in a Buddhist monastery, where a monk told him of the bhodisattva saint called “Issa”. Notovich was stunned by the remarkable parallels of Issa’s teachings and martyrdom with that of Christ’s life, teachings and crucifixion.
For about sixteen years, Christ travelled through Turkey, Persia, Western Europe and possibly England. He finally arrived with Mary to a place near Kashmir, where she died. After many years in Kashmir, teaching to an appreciative population, who venerated him as a great prophet, reformer and saint, he died and was buried in a tomb in Kashmir itself.
The first step in Christ’s trail after the Crucifixion is found in the Persian scholar F. Mohammed’s historical work “Jami-ut-tuwarik” which tells of Christ’s arrival in the kingdom of Nisibis, by royal invitation. (Nisibis is today known as Nusaybin in Turkey) . This is reiterated in the Imam Abu Jafar Muhammed’s “Tafsi-Ibn-i-Jamir at-tubri.” Kersten found that in both Turkey and Persia there are ancient stories of a saint called “Yuz Asaf” (“Leader of the Healed”), whose behaviour, miracles and teachings are remarkably similar to that of Christ.
The many Islamic and Hindu historical works recording local history and legends of kings, noblemen and saints of the areas thought to be travelled by Jesus also give evidence of a Christ like man; the Koran, for example, refers to Christ as “Issar”. Further east, the Kurdish tribes of Eastern Anatolia have several stories describing Christ’s stay in Eastern Turkey after his resurrection. These traditional legends have been ignored by the theological community.
Kersten also suggests that prior to Christ’s mission in the Middle East, he may have been exposed to Buddhist teachings in Egypt. After his birth in Bethlehem, his family fled to Egypt to avoid Herod’s persecution. Surprisingly some scholars now acknowledge that Buddhist schools probably existed in Alexandria long before the Christian era.
More clues are drawn from the Apocrypha. These are texts said to have been written by the Apostles but which are not officially accepted by the Church. Indeed, the Church regards them as heresy since a substantial amount of the Apocrypha directly contradicts Church dogma and theology.
The Apocryphal ‘Acts of Thomas’, for example, tell how Christ met Thomas several times after the Crucifixion. In fact they tell us how Christ sent Thomas to teach his spirituality in India. This is corroborated by evidence found in the form of stone inscriptions at Fatehpur Sikri, near the Taj Mahal, in Northern India.
They include “Agrapha”, which are sayings of Christ that don’t exist in the mainstream Bible. Their grammatical form is most similar to that of the Apocryphal gospel of Thomas. This is but one example giving credibility to the idea that texts not recognised by the Church hold important clues about Christ’s true life and his teachings.
This is given just for information of the members here, no Catholics are suggested to change their faith; a different opinion always adds to the steadfastness of a faithful on truth,it does not weaken it, in my opinion.
Thanks
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