Jesus on the cross...

[Mattjolley]

When Jesus shouts out ‘My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?’, upon the cross, I know he is quoting Psalm 21,but applying it to himself.

Does this passage simply serve to show us to what extent he humanly, physically suffered, as any believer would cry to God at that point,surely?

Does it indicate Jesus thought God had abandoned Him at this point, so his suffering was as human as possible? I don’t think for a moment God did actually abandon Him.

Its just that you can see it another way; that the cry of Jesus implies doubt from one person of the trinity (The Son), to the Father. In His hour of need he feels alone, but surely after His ministry, claiming to be one with the Father and so forth, Christ would not suddenly indicate that the Father had abandoned him. However the form of the question ‘Why have you forsaken me?’ Implies Jesus already feels forsaken, and wishes toknow why. I freely admit I am utterly confused in my interpretation of this highly important quotation, I have been dwelling on its true meaning for a while now. I myself feel the author wished to highlight Christ’s humanity, that he, like any other, doubted during his hour of need, but I may be wrong because the other half of me reminds me that Jesus was also divine, so I don’t see how you can separate the two natures of Jesus, surely being both human and divine, he would not have these doubts. Or did the human, suffering side, come to the forefront and wonder how he could be left to suffer so harshly? It all seems to make God look like he’s left Jesus alone, even Jesus makes it seem like he feels this way.

Or, after all that, is he just quoting the Psalm because it focuses on the topic of the suffering man crying to God? Maybe after all, I’m reading too much into it! Probably knowing me!

Can somebody clear it all up, please?

Matt

 

[vern_humphrey]

That’s the 22nd Psalm:

1 For the leader; according to “The deer of the dawn.” A psalm of David.
2 My God, my God, why have you abandoned me? Why so far from my call for help, from my cries of anguish?
3 My God, I call by day, but you do not answer; by night, but I have no relief.
4 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the glory of Israel.
5 In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted and you rescued them.
6 To you they cried out and they escaped; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
7 But I am a worm, hardly human, scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
8 All who see me mock me; they curl their lips and jeer; they shake their heads at me:
9 “You relied on the LORD–let him deliver you; if he loves you, let him rescue you.”
10 Yet you drew me forth from the womb, made me safe at my mother’s breast.
11 Upon you I was thrust from the womb; since birth you are my God.
12 Do not stay far from me, for trouble is near, and there is no one to help.
13 Many bulls surround me; fierce bulls of Bashan encircle me.
14 They open their mouths against me, lions that rend and roar.
15 Like water my life drains away; all my bones grow soft. My heart has become like wax, it melts away within me.
16 As dry as a potsherd is my throat; my tongue sticks to my palate; you lay me in the dust of death.
17 Many dogs surround me; a pack of evildoers closes in on me. So wasted are my hands and feet
18 that I can count all my bones. They stare at me and gloat;
19 they divide my garments among them; for my clothing they cast lots.
20 But you, LORD, do not stay far off; my strength, come quickly to help me.
21 Deliver me from the sword, my forlorn life from the teeth of the dog.
22 Save me from the lion’s mouth, my poor life from the horns of wild bulls.
23 Then I will proclaim your name to the assembly; in the community I will praise you:
24 “You who fear the LORD, give praise! All descendants of Jacob, give honor; show reverence, all descendants of Israel!
25 For God has not spurned or disdained the misery of this poor wretch, Did not turn away from me, but heard me when I cried out.
26 I will offer praise in the great assembly; my vows I will fulfill before those who fear him.
27 The poor will eat their fill; those who seek the LORD will offer praise. May your hearts enjoy life forever!”
28 All the ends of the earth will worship and turn to the LORD; All the families of nations will bow low before you.
29 For kingship belongs to the LORD, the ruler over the nations.
30 All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God; All who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage.
31 And I will live for the LORD; my descendants will serve you.
32 The generation to come will be told of the Lord, that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn the deliverance you have brought.

Note how closely this psalm matches the Crucifixion – from being mocked, to having lots cast for His garments. This psalm might be taken for an eye-witness account of the Crucifixion, did we not know it to be written a thousand years earlier.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Does this passage simply serve to show us to what extent he humanly, physically suffered, as any believer would cry to God at that point,surely?

This is a passage that needs to be approached with the different senses of Scripture. As for a yes or no answer to this quote of yours that I just quoted, yes! St. Hilary says, “You have Him complaining that He is left to death, and thus He is Man; you have Him as He is dying declaring that He reigns in Paradise; and thus He is God. Wonder not then at the humility of these words, when you know the form of a servant, and see the offense of the cross.” But St. Augustine sees another angle to it, he says, “He was speaking (My God my God) in our name, on our behalf, tranfering it from the sinner to Him” St. John Chrysostom says this, “He uttered this word of prophecy, that He might bear witness to the very last hour to the Old Testament, and that they might see that He honors the Father, and is not against God. And therefore too, He used the Hebrew tongue, that what He said might be intelligible to them.”

Does it indicate Jesus thought God had abandoned Him at this point, so his suffering was as human as possible? I don’t think for a moment God did actually abandon Him.

St. Thomas Aquinas says, “God is said to have forsaken Him in death because He exposed Him to the power of His persecutors; He withdrew His protection, but did not break the union.”

 

[Mattjolley]

thanks for your replies! always good to know i was on the right tracks with my interpretations. and i was going to make the point of aquinas in my OP, that just because Jesus was left open to human suffering, didnt mean God had utterly deserted him.

Thanks all!

Matt

 

[jcrichton]

When Jesus shouts out ‘My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?’, upon the cross, I know he is quoting Psalm 21,but applying it to himself.

Does this passage simply serve to show us to what extent he humanly, physically suffered, as any believer would cry to God at that point,surely?

Does it indicate Jesus thought God had abandoned Him at this point, so his suffering was as human as possible? I don’t think for a moment God did actually abandon Him.

Its just that you can see it another way; that the cry of Jesus implies doubt from one person of the trinity (The Son), to the Father. In His hour of need he feels alone, but surely after His ministry, claiming to be one with the Father and so forth, Christ would not suddenly indicate that the Father had abandoned him. However the form of the question ‘Why have you forsaken me?’ Implies Jesus already feels forsaken, and wishes toknow why. I freely admit I am utterly confused in my interpretation of this highly important quotation, I have been dwelling on its true meaning for a while now. I myself feel the author wished to highlight Christ’s humanity, that he, like any other, doubted during his hour of need, but I may be wrong because the other half of me reminds me that Jesus was also divine, so I don’t see how you can separate the two natures of Jesus, surely being both human and divine, he would not have these doubts. Or did the human, suffering side, come to the forefront and wonder how he could be left to suffer so harshly? It all seems to make God look like he’s left Jesus alone, even Jesus makes it seem like he feels this way.

Or, after all that, is he just quoting the Psalm because it focuses on the topic of the suffering man crying to God? Maybe after all, I’m reading too much into it! Probably knowing me!

Can somebody clear it all up, please?

Matt

Hi, Matt!

Consider this: Jesus knows exactly what awaits Him on the Cross… though several times we witness Him praying and even asking the Father to remove that Chalice (burden) from Him, He understands, as a human, that He has to surrender His Body to the Cross… but there’s that undertow which is totally spiritual–the reason why He feels so saddened for humanity… He will take our place on the Cross, but we will still refuse to believe; as the Jews, only a remnant would chose Salvation…

Several times He reveals to us that He and the Father are one… that He is in the Father and the Father in Him… and then there’s that very special “I am not alone, for the Father is always with me!” (St. John 16:32)

…still, He is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world… “why have you forsaken me?..” there, on the Cross, at that time when He must surrender His human Body, when He must accept onto Himself our transgressions, for whatever infinitesimal fraction of time, Jesus must Stand (exists) on His own, without the Father (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 St. John 3:5) for He is to receive the fullness of our infirmities, even to His death.

…“why have you forsaken me?” Jesus must face us alone; but it is not the physical pain that brings Him anguish (He refuses the mixture of myhrr which would spare Him the physical pain of the nails and the agony of the Crucifixion) our Savior must take onto Himself our death so that we may gain Life in Him! How long does this lasts? Probably a fraction of a nanosecond–a full eternity to God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Valke2]

That’s the 22nd Psalm:

Note how closely this psalm matches the Crucifixion – from being mocked, to having lots cast for His garments. This psalm might be taken for an eye-witness account of the Crucifixion, did we not know it to be written a thousand years earlier.

or much of the story of the crucifixion was made up to comply with the description in the psalm.

 

[vern_humphrey]

or much of the story of the crucifixion was made up to comply with the description in the psalm.

Riiiight. The Gospel writers made it all up.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Riiiight. The Gospel writers made it all up.

Not only that, they were quite willing to be tortured and die for something they purposely made up. Makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Not only that, they were quite willing to be tortured and die for something they purposely made up. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Well, see, that was part of the spin (I actually had someone on another thread tell me about “Pauline spin” as if somehow Paul were a media flack.)

 

[jcrichton]

or much of the story of the crucifixion was made up to comply with the description in the psalm.

Hi, Valke!

…so according to you, which portions of Scriptures should we believe?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[RWMorris]

…St. Thomas Aquinas says, “God is said to have forsaken Him in death because He exposed Him to the power of His persecutors; He withdrew His protection, but did not break the union.”

I think of this as God the Father’s suffering. He had to allow Jesus to be exposed to this evil, so God the Father’s suffering was great, also.

 

[Valke2]

Not only that, they were quite willing to be tortured and die for something they purposely made up. Makes a lot of sense to me.

That is if you believe any of the apostles wrote the gospels. How old were they when they were tortured? If you view the passion narratives as a kind of eulogy, then it makes sense that the writers would look to the psalms and other scripture they were familiar with to frame the story of Jesus’ death.

 

[Valke2]

Hi, Valke!

…so according to you, which portions of Scriptures should we believe?

Maran atha!

Angel

That is not an easy question for me. Well, in a sense it is. Since I’m Jewish… But I have similar issues with my own scriptures and am currently trying to figure out how to follow them with the knowledge that what they say and what how they were interpeted are often two very different things.

The best I’ve been able to come up with for my own rationale is to paraphrase something I hears: “Not everything that happened is necessarily true. And not everything that is true necessarily happened.”

 

[Valke2]

I think of this as God the Father’s suffering. He had to allow Jesus to be exposed to this evil, so God the Father’s suffering was great, also.

An omnipotent being suffering?

 

[Cara_Serrano]

I have no scholarly basis for this opinion, but I always thought this Psalm showed Jesus teaching us how to pray during intense suffering. He taught us to pray the Our Father during life and this psalm during death; both forming a complete prayer primer.

After learning that this psalm was among Jesus’ last words, I started praying the Divine Office every day. I thought if the Lord prayed the psalms up to the moment of His death, then so should I. (Good practice for the “big day” ahead.) Besides, it’s the only part of HIs crucifixion that I have the strength to imitate.

 

[vern_humphrey]

An omnipotent being suffering?

“Omnipotent” means “all powerful” and hence capable of all things. So, yes, an omnipotent Being could indeed suffer, if that was His will.

 

[Transformer]

That a good man may have his back to the wall is no more than we knew already; but that God could have His back to the wall is a boast for all insurgents for ever. Christianity is the only religion on earth that has felt that omnipotence made God incomplete. Christianity alone has felt that God, to be wholly God, must have been a rebel as well as a king. Alone of all creeds, Christianity has added courage to the virtues of the Creator. For the only courage worth calling courage must necessarily mean that the soul passes a breaking point–and does not break. In this indeed I approach a matter more dark and awful than it is easy to discuss; and I apologise in advance if any of my phrases fall wrong or seem irreverent touching a matter which the greatest saints and thinkers have justly feared to approach.

But in that terrific tale of the Passion there is a distinct emotional suggestion that the author of all things (in some unthinkable way) went not only through agony, but through doubt. It is written, “Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” No; but the Lord thy God may tempt Himself; and it seems as if this was what happened in Gethsemane. In a garden satan tempted man: and in a garden God tempted God. He passed in some superhuman manner through our human horror of pessimism. When the world shook and the sun was wiped out of heaven, it was not at the crucifixion, but at the cry from the cross: the cry which confessed that God was forsaken of God.

And now let the revolutionists choose a creed from all the creeds and a god from all the gods of the world, carefully weighing all the gods of inevitable recurrence and of unalterable power. They will not find another god who has himself been in revolt. Nay (the matter grows too difficult for human speech), but let the atheists themselves choose a god. They will find only one divinity who ever uttered their isolation; only one religion in which God seemed for an instant to be an atheist.

• G.K. Chesterton

That may help, or it may just be extremely confusing.

 

[Valke2]

“Omnipotent” means “all powerful” and hence capable of all things. So, yes, an omnipotent Being could indeed suffer, if that was His will.

well, that’s really saying an omnipotent being can choose to be not omnipotent.

 

[vern_humphrey]

well, that’s really saying an omnipotent being can choose to be not omnipotent.

I don’t see how you get that.

 

[Valke2]

I don’t see how you get that.

Because the only way to choose to suffer is to give up being omnipotent. If one is all powerful, nothing can make such a being suffer.