Jesus' Parables

[Zahava]

^ Thanks Zahava, there is just one little piece of puzzle that I couldnt connect. How do you reconcile the idea that Zion/Israel is the servant with the idea that the servant “bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors”?

Agnos, who is speaking in this passage? Who is shocked? The nations of the world - the kings they will be amazed when the messiah restores the sacrifices in the temple - that all the Jews are gathered from the 4 corners - they will be amazed that these lowly people that they have been perscuted all these years: expulsions, crusades, blood-libels, Hitler (may his name be erased) has not been forgotton by their G-d afterall. Look even now with the neo nazis and other hateful people descrating the synagogues -

Jews are bearing THE SINS ( expulsions, crusades, blood-libels, Hitler (may his name be erased) OF THE NATIONS - (not shouting here)

 

[AgnosTheist]

^ and what about “made intercession for the transgressors”?

 

[Lev23]

Agnos, who is speaking in this passage? Who is shocked? The nations of the world - the kings they will be amazed when the messiah restores the sacrifices in the temple - that all the Jews are gathered from the 4 corners - they will be amazed that these lowly people that they have been perscuted all these years: expulsions, crusades, blood-libels, Hitler (may his name be erased) has not been forgotton by their G-d afterall. Look even now with the neo nazis and other hateful people descrating the synagogues -

Jews are bearing THE SINS ( expulsions, crusades, blood-libels, Hitler (may his name be erased) OF THE NATIONS - (not shouting here)

Zahava, come on now. I know the nations treated dispersed Israel very badly. But what about Israel’s own sin? How do you explain Ezekiel 36:16-32?

Look especially at verses 20-21
And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

And verse 32
I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

 

[Zahava]

^ and what about “made intercession for the transgressors”?

the Bible teaches us that the nations of the world are bidden to ascend to Jerusalem and bow down to G-d Zec 14:17

Just as in the days when the Temple stood and the Priest interceeded by asking G-d to hear the prayers of the nations - so to will this take place when the messiah is here and the sacrifices are re-instated in the final Temple.

 

[Zahava]

Zahava, come on now. I know the nations treated dispersed Israel very badly. But what about Israel’s own sin? How do you explain Ezekiel 36:16-32?

Look especially at verses 20-21
And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

And verse 32
I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

Lev, sadly even today the secular Jews are profaning the Almighty’s name. BUT G-d has not nor will He ever forsake His convenant with the children of Israel.

Just as Isaiah prophecies here

 

[Zahava]

In the middle of this video below on the Final War of Gog and Magog you will see how the leftist secular Jews profaine the Almighty.

It is sad.

torahohr.net/gogumagog/

 

[Lev23]

Zahava, in post #55 I got this thread back on track to your original question.

We both agree that Jesus did not depart from Jewish teachings and sayings of old. In fact, his ministry of parables was foretold in prophecy(Psalm78). In this prophecy it states that his parables will be like those teachings and sayings of old(verse2-3).

I read your Monday Oct.29 blog, and I agree with you that some Christians need to learn, relearn, whatever, that Jesus was and is a Jew. Jesus is not a gentile, a Italian, Korean, American, Palestinean freedom fighter, etc., etc. He is a Jew. Because Jesus, or Yeshua of Nazerath is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world(John 1:29), sometimes different ethic peoples tend to “remake” Jesus into their ethnic background. Others just cut Jesus and his Church from their Jewish roots. And this in turn leads some Jews to claim Jesus is not the one prophesied about because of the lack of Jewishness some present Jesus in.

As a Christian, I would also add that Jesus is the Jew’s Jew.

It seems to me you study hard at the scriptures. And you practice Judaism. But why try to debunk Jesus when everything he did was Jewish? I heard a Christian once say he was challenged by a Rabbi in Israel who took pride in debunking claims that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah. This Christian went over with him prophecy after prophecy about Jesus being the Messiah. Every answer could be summed up that the prophecies in scripture were talking about the people, land, or something else. After awhile, this Christian had to simply ask this Rabbi-"Then were do you get the idea that a Messiah is even coming?"

I want you to think about this Zahava, concerning when the Messiah will come to Israel. When he comes, scripture says it will not be a situation where people can come up to him and ask him- "Is this your first time here?"

Zechariah 12:10-13 says by just looking to him, they WILL KNOW who he is.
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication. They will look to me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives.

May the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob bless you and keep you Zahava.

 

[Zahava]

Context

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. [2] Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. (KJV)

These two verses set up the background. At some future date, the nations of the world will be gathered against the Jewish people, and will besiege the Jerusalem.

Zechariah 12:3-6

This siege is part of a tremendous war, the war of Gog and Magog. The Jews shall fight back against the enemy nations, and they shall be victorious.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. [11] In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. [12] And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; [13] The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; [14] All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

**The concluding verses speak of someone who is pierced and dies. **His death will so shock the nation that the people will be moved to repentance and mourning, an intense mourning of this person who is killed that it would be as if they were mourning for a firstborn son. Verse 11 paints a rather dramatic picture of how widespread the mourning will be by comparing this mourning to the mourning the people did over the death of King Josiah, who was killed in battle against the Egyptians, as told in 2 Kings 23:29-30. 2 Chronicles 35:22-25 tells that all of Judah mourning for him.

**Does Jesus fit this picture? Three points prevent this: **

**1) **This scenario of war against the nations of the world didn’t take place in Jesus’ time.

2) The Jews (meaning the whole people) didn’t mourn over Jesus’ death according to the New Testament account.

3) This proof, like nearly all of Christianity’s proofs, requires one to assume the conclusion, that Jesus is the Messiah and that he’s special enough that the prophets would have written about him. If you approach the verse without believing in Jesus, there’s really no reason to think that the verse refers to him.

Translation
The translation of this verse is rather awkward. Let’s give it a closer look.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (KJV)

The speaker in this verse is the Lord, yet in this translation, it appears that the Lord Himself is pierced. (Hence, the Christian connection, because they believe that Jesus is G-d in the flesh.) However, the rest of the verse would indicate that the Lord was speaking of someone else. “For him” they shall mourn. “For him” there shall be bitterness.The author of the Gospel of John apparently didn’t see our verse from Zechariah the same way that the King James Bible translated it.

John 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Note that in our verse from Zechariah, it reads “upon Me whom they have pierced.” In this verse from John, it’s now “on him whom they pierced.” If G-d is the speaker, and He is the one being pierced (as if such a thing were possible), then it is reasonable to think that the rest of the verse would be consistent with this. John’s quote is consistent, although taken out of context. John never saw the verse as the Lord being pierced, because John clearly believed that Jesus and G-d were two separate entities, as seen by the following:

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (KJV)
The context of the King James translation leads one to think that this is a mistranslation. Examining the Hebrew text of the verse will confirm this.

Lev, thank you for your blessing.
Peace to you

messiahtruth.com/zech12.html

 

[PaulDupre]

[John 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Note that in our verse from Zechariah, it reads “upon Me whom they have pierced.” In this verse from John, it’s now “on him whom they pierced.” If G-d is the speaker, and He is the one being pierced (as if such a thing were possible),

It became possible when God the Son, the 2nd person of the Trinity who is speaking in this passage, entered human history and became a man. He was crucified (pierced) under Pontius Pilate.

then it is reasonable to think that the rest of the verse would be consistent with this. John’s quote is consistent, although taken out of context. John never saw the verse as the Lord being pierced, because John clearly believed that Jesus and G-d were two separate entities, as seen by the following:

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (KJV)

Not two separate entities, but two separate persons. One God in three persons. They are real, distinct persons, but one in being. that is why in Genesis, God says “Let us make man in our image.” Three persons, one image.

Paul
[/quote]

 

[Zahava]

Not two separate entities, but two separate persons. One God in three persons. They are real, distinct persons, but one in being. that is why in Genesis, God says “Let us make man in our image.” Three persons, one image.

Paul

RASHI

Let us make man From here we learn the humility of the Holy One, blessed be He. Since man was created in the likeness of the angels, and they would envy him, He consulted them. And when He judges kings, He consults with His Heavenly household, for so we find regarding Ahab, that Micah said to him, (I Kings 22:19): “I saw the Lord seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him, on His right and on His left.” Now do “left” or “right” apply to Him ?! But rather, [the passage means that] these [angels] were standing on the right to defend, and these [angels] were standing on the left to prosecute. Likewise, (Dan. 4:14): “By the decree of the destructive angels is the matter, and by the word of the holy ones is the edict.” Here too, He took counsel with His heavenly household. He said to them, “Among the heavenly beings, there are some in My likeness. If there are none in My likeness among the earthly beings, there will be envy among the creatures of the Creation. ” - [from Tanchuma, Shemoth 18; Gen. Rabbah 8:11, 14:13]

Let us make man Even though they [the angels] did not assist Him in His creation, and there is an opportunity for the heretics to rebel (to misconstrue the plural as a basis for their heresies), Scripture did not hesitate to teach proper conduct and the trait of humility, that a great person should consult with and receive permission from a smaller one. Had it been written: “I shall make man,” we would not have learned that He was speaking with His tribunal, but to Himself. And the refutation to the heretics is written alongside it *“And God created (וַיִּבְרָא) ,” and it does not say,“and they created וַיִּבְרְאוּ.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 8:9]
in our image in our form.

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/8165/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-1.htm*

 

[Lev23]

Context

The speaker in this verse is the Lord, yet in this translation, it appears that the Lord Himself is pierced. (Hence, the Christian connection, because they believe that Jesus is G-d in the flesh.) However, the rest of the verse would indicate that the Lord was speaking of someone else.

The testimony about Yeshua of Nazerath concerning his crucifixtion, or how he was pierced can be proved he is the Messiah, the Son of God, the one spoken of in Zechariah 12.

Psalm 22:16 speaks of hands and feet pierced-
Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have (((pierced))) my hands and my feet.

Isaiah 53:5 prophetically tells of one who is pierced-
But he was (((pierced))) for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

Look at the bread in the Passover sedar, is it not pierced? Why is the middle piece taken out, broke in half, wrapped up and hidden, to be brought back to the table later in the ceremony only to be broken in pieces?

Yeshua of Nazerath declared in John 6:35-
"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never go thirsty."

Yeshua’s body was pierced, broken for all(died), then was buried, and brought forth from the ground, that is resurrected. Just like that middle piece of bread in the Passover sedar illustrated. Now his believers eat that bread and ingest that quality of rising forth from the Earth.

 

[Valke2]

Dogs have encompassed me.
A company of evildoers has enclosed me; like a lion, they
are at my hands and my feet.

The Hebrew word Kaari appears in other places in the Tanach, always referring to a lion.

Isaiah 38:13 which is describing King Hezekiah singing a song praying for his recovery from illness. Here the word Kaari is also used and correctly interpeted as “I reckoned till morning, as a lion …” (KJV).

There is no good reason why the word “pierced” later appeared in the translations of Psalm 22. It is believed that the origional authors of the Christian Bible/Canon did not use the word, and that it was inserted later.

Because Psalm 22 didn’t originally have the word “pierced” in its translations, and the writers of the New Testament would have read the psalm “as a lion”, they would not have made any connection between Psalm 22 and a crucifixion. Which is probably why Psalm 22:17 (16 if you’re jewish ) isn’t quoted in the New Testament.

I’m pretty sure that Christian scholars today also acknowledge that “as a lion” rather than “pierced” is the more accurate translation. The whole pslam uses animal metaphor/description to describe King David’s enemies. Lion fits right in. Aside from “lion”, the psalm mentions “bulls”, “dogs” , horns of wild oxen. Lions are used (i think) three times in the psalm itself.

In the eternal debate as to ascribing foreshadowing of jesus and crucifixion in the scriptures that were written prior to Jesus, Psalm 22:17 is probably one of the hardest arguments for a Christian to make in supporting a reference to crucifixion.

 

[Valke2]

Some more notes on the language of Psalm 22 (borrowed from an earlier post of mine in another thread. )’

The Sept. was textually revised by Christians a few times in the early centuries. It is not known if “pierced” was one of these revisions. A rather strong circumstantial argument can be made that it was because if was always intepeted as ‘pierced,’ the christian bible would have quoted the verse to support the prophecy that Jesus would be crucified. It doesn’t.

Even if we agree that the correct/original root was Karah (“dig”), this generally refers to digging of soil (see Gen 26:25, Ex. 21:33, Num. 21;16, Jeramiah 18:20 and 22, Psalm 7:16 and Psalm 57:7). Every instance of the word Karah – the word Christians say means ‘pierced’ in Psalm 22:16 – is used to mean “dig” in the above citations. It is never used to mean pierced and certainly not used to mean pierced flesh.

There are Hebrew words that mean pierced that are used in the Scripture: rats’a (Ex. 21:6); dakar (Zechariah 12:10 and Isaiah 13:15); nakar (II Kings 18:21). Kings 18:21: [The reed] will go into his hand and pierce it." Thus, why used the word for dig in psalm 22 if the author was trying to say pierce.

The actual word used was not Karah be Ka-ari. The same word but with an aleph. This makes the word lion, not “to dig”. (and certainly not “pierced”!).

Finally, the verse should be read "like a lion they are gnawing at my hands and my feet. Yes, the words “they are gnawing” are absent. But this was and is a common literary technique when describing pain/agony. A person in pain does not use complete sentences to describe their pain. And neither did the Psalmist. The same thing occurs in verse 1: “Far from helping me…the words of my roaring.”

 

[Zahava]

Dogs have encompassed me.
A company of evildoers has enclosed me; like a lion, they
are at my hands and my feet.

The Hebrew word Kaari appears in other places in the Tanach, always referring to a lion.

Isaiah 38:13 which is describing King Hezekiah singing a song praying for his recovery from illness. Here the word Kaari is also used and correctly interpeted as “I reckoned till morning, as a lion …” (KJV).

There is no good reason why the word “pierced” later appeared in the translations of Psalm 22. It is believed that the origional authors of the Christian Bible/Canon did not use the word, and that it was inserted later.

Because Psalm 22 didn’t originally have the word “pierced” in its translations, and the writers of the New Testament would have read the psalm “as a lion”, they would not have made any connection between Psalm 22 and a crucifixion. Which is probably why Psalm 22:17 (16 if you’re jewish ) isn’t quoted in the New Testament.

I’m pretty sure that Christian scholars today also acknowledge that “as a lion” rather than “pierced” is the more accurate translation. The whole pslam uses animal metaphor/description to describe King David’s enemies. Lion fits right in. Aside from “lion”, the psalm mentions “bulls”, “dogs” , horns of wild oxen. Lions are used (i think) three times in the psalm itself.

In the eternal debate as to ascribing foreshadowing of jesus and crucifixion in the scriptures that were written prior to Jesus, Psalm 22:17 is probably one of the hardest arguments for a Christian to make in supporting a reference to crucifixion.

thanks for the post Valke2 - you did a better job than I in refuting this “prophecy”.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Valke’s explanation makes a lot more sense.

 

[Lev23]

thanks for the post Valke2 - you did a better job than I in refuting this “prophecy”.

I’d post some links for ya, but would ya really read them? Just google “psalm 22:16 like a lion”, you’ll get both sides of the arguement. But you might be surprised at the arguement for “pierced.”

I’ve noticed when the excuse of, “That wasn’t referring to Messiah”, or “That wasn’t referring to Yeshua” doesn’t work out, the ol’ “wrong translation” card comes out.

Come on Valke and Zahava, it is getting kinda late in the game for someone else to fulfill some of these prophecies Yeshua already has. Look at how Israel is being brought back out of all nations today. Look how the nations are still treating her. I think we can agree Messiah will have to intervene and rescue Israel from world’s hatred towards her. **Do you agree we are getting near to the arrival of Messiah?

If so,** look at how the Testimony of Yeshua’s death, burial, risen from the dead, and his sending the Holy Spirit to his Church. Look at the times these four things happened and compare it to the times and nature of the 7 feasts God gave to Israel.

He was crucified on Passover, buried on Unleavened Bread, resurrected from the dead on First Fruits, and sent the Holy Spirit on the feast of Weeks(Pentecost). Just bear with me for a minute, but think about the last three feasts to be fulfilled-Trumpets, Atonement, and Tabernacles. We know that the church needs no atonement because Christ was the atoneing sacrifice for sins. But we see from the prophets that Israel as a whole does(Ez36, etc.). Could the Feast of Atonement be fulfilled like what is spoken in Zechariah 12 when Messiah(Yeshua) comes to Israel? Tabernacles harkens heavily to the Kingdom when Messiah will reign, like all the Kingdom scriptures foretell.

Come on, what does the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob say? Forget about what the world, bible commentary or the Talmund has to say. What really matters is what does your God say?

One more question, what is this “New Covenant” Jeremiah speaks of in Jer31 and when will it start?

 

[Valke2]

And even if I were to buy the “pierced” translation, how do you explain the line: “But I am a worm and no man, a disgrace among men, by the people reviled.” ? Are we supposed to believe that this is referring to Jesus in a moment of self-revilement?

 

[Valke2]

.

Come on, what does the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob say? Forget about what the world, bible commentary or the Talmund has to say. What really matters is what does your God say?

One more question, what is this “New Covenant” Jeremiah speaks of in Jer31 and when will it start?

Our God says that he is not a man. That God will not be a man. But I’m not arguing that Christians can’t find their prophecies fullfilled. I’m just putting forth normative Judaism’s interpetation of Psalm 22.

The “New Covenant” referred to in Jeremiah refers to the time when it will be a simple joy for all jews to obey the commandments. That such obedience will not be even the slightest burdern.

 

[De_Maria]

No Adrift, how to respond to what was said about unclean lips.
If Jesus fulfilled this prophecy in Isaiah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AgnosTheist
verse 5 did say "And I said, “Woe is me for I am lost, for I am a man of unclean lips, and amidst a people of unclean lips I dwell, for the King, the Lord of Hosts have my eyes seen.”.

If the prophecy was fullfilled on jesus, then jesus had unclean lips?

No. Matthew explained what was fulfilled:

14 And the prophecy of Isaias is fulfilled in them, who saith: By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand: and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive.

The prophecy was fulfilled in THEM.

waiting to see how this is answered.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria