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adrift
Guest
Oh dear I am afraid I am not communication very well. I want you to clarify exactly what the prophecy is. As I see it, the unclean lips had nothing to do with the prophecy. It was as I see it that
was fulfilled.
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PaulDupre
Guest
God the Son, 2nd person of the trinity, who entered human history as Jesus Christ, was not created. He is co-eternal and co-equal with the Father. So He was definitely around when Adam and Eve were created and when Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt.
God love you,
Paul
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Zahava
Guest
Oh dear, I reread chapter 6. You are correct the unclean lips had nothing to do with this saying of verse 9.
BUT THIS IS NO PROPHECY.
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AgnosTheist
Guest
The person commanded to say verse 9 had unclean lips.
How was this a prophecy? And how was it fulfilled on Jesus?
How was this a prophecy? And how was it fulfilled on Jesus?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
The unclean lips part, as Zahava noted, have nothing to do with the prophecy, AT. A prophecy does not mean a total, literal ‘re-enactment’ of both what is said AND the person who says it. And I believe you know that. . .
As for the prophecy itself, it is fulfilled in that Isaiah ‘foreshadowed’ Jesus’s coming as the Messiah and how the people would react. (But Jesus is not ‘another Isaiah’). Scripture (and I think you’ll back me up on this Zahava) is very nuanced. There are many layers of meaning.
Isaiah is not read as a ‘historical text’ as if, “in year X, THIS event happened, this man Isaiah responded to this event, and this is what Isaiah said to these PARTICULAR people, etc” and that is ALL. Certainly these things happened, but they happened ‘for a reason’ and they ‘foreshadow’ things to come.
Zahava, do you and your fellow Jews not hold that the book of Isaiah is a prophetic book --not just ‘about’ a prophet and what he ‘did’, but also foreshadowing future events and what will occur?
And that therefore there are passages which refer, sometimes to ‘prophets’ as a whole, to the ‘people’ as specifically those particular people, sometimes to the Jewish people of future times when the events of the book were taking place but were ‘past’ at the time the book was written, sometimes to the Jewish people of future times that have not occurred, sometimes to the Gentiles (likewise past, present, and future).
And that one could say, prophetically speaking, there were, and are, and will be, events for which one has been ‘forewarned’ in the Scripture.
It is said, is it not, that the Messiah will come (Christians will say, ‘has come’) and will fulfill the many prophecies made about him, "Such as Isaiah’s telling that from “bethelem”, the tiny place, would come a ‘leader who would shepherd my people Israel’.
So there are prophecies throughout Scripture–some well known, others not so well known.
As for the prophecy itself, it is fulfilled in that Isaiah ‘foreshadowed’ Jesus’s coming as the Messiah and how the people would react. (But Jesus is not ‘another Isaiah’). Scripture (and I think you’ll back me up on this Zahava) is very nuanced. There are many layers of meaning.
Isaiah is not read as a ‘historical text’ as if, “in year X, THIS event happened, this man Isaiah responded to this event, and this is what Isaiah said to these PARTICULAR people, etc” and that is ALL. Certainly these things happened, but they happened ‘for a reason’ and they ‘foreshadow’ things to come.
Zahava, do you and your fellow Jews not hold that the book of Isaiah is a prophetic book --not just ‘about’ a prophet and what he ‘did’, but also foreshadowing future events and what will occur?
And that therefore there are passages which refer, sometimes to ‘prophets’ as a whole, to the ‘people’ as specifically those particular people, sometimes to the Jewish people of future times when the events of the book were taking place but were ‘past’ at the time the book was written, sometimes to the Jewish people of future times that have not occurred, sometimes to the Gentiles (likewise past, present, and future).
And that one could say, prophetically speaking, there were, and are, and will be, events for which one has been ‘forewarned’ in the Scripture.
It is said, is it not, that the Messiah will come (Christians will say, ‘has come’) and will fulfill the many prophecies made about him, "Such as Isaiah’s telling that from “bethelem”, the tiny place, would come a ‘leader who would shepherd my people Israel’.
So there are prophecies throughout Scripture–some well known, others not so well known.
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Zahava
Guest
TARGUM hear this to, k?
I say wait a minute guys - lets review again. AGNOS is asking a great question. I HAD TO REREAD AGAIN AFTER YOUR NOTE TARGUM.
The N.T. says Jesus said these words. A reference to the already mentioned passage as being fulfilled.
SO, if Isaiah is saying his lips are impure - how was this indeed a fulfilled prophecy.
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Zahava
Guest
A prophecy has to happen just as the prophet spoke it to happen or he is a false prophet.The unclean lips part, as Zahava noted, have nothing to do with the prophecy, AT. A prophecy does not mean a total, literal ‘re-enactment’ of both what is said AND the person who says it. And I believe you know that. . .
Sure it is a prophetic book BUT IT MUST BE READ CORRECTLY NOT MISINTREPRETED OR MISTRANSLATED
You are mistaken Tantum
born in Bethlehem
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity.” (Micah 5:2) FULFILLED? (Luke 2:4-5, 7)
NOPE, THIS IS SPEAKING OF KING DAVID NOT THE MESSIAH
RASHI
- And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah-you should have been the lowest of the clans of Judah-from you [he] shall emerge for Me, to be a ruler over Israel; and his origin is from of old, from days of yore.
And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah whence David emanated, as it is stated (I Sam. 17:58): “The son of your bondsman, Jesse the Bethlehemite.” And Bethlehem is called Ephrath, as it is said (Gen. 48:7): “On the road to Ephrath, that is Bethlehem.”
you should have been the lowest of the clans of Judah You should have been the lowest of the clans of Judah because of the stigma of Ruth the Moabitess in you.
from you shall emerge for Me the Messiah, son of David, and so Scripture says (Ps. 118:22): “The stone the builders had rejected became a cornerstone.”
and his origin is from of old “Before the sun his name is Yinnon” (Ps. 72:17).
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
First, Jesus is NOT a prophet. Thus, while Isaiah–a man–had to have his lips cleansed by the fiery coal brought him by angels to make him ‘clean’ to speak; Jesus --son of God–does not ‘need’ cleansing. God sent prophets --God sent teachers–God sent judges to His people throughout history. What happened to them? They were mocked, insulted, and killed. Finally God sent His own Son–and guess what? Same thing happened. Difference is – this Son not only accepted that trying to bring people to God would bring about His OWN death, He would USE that death as a sacrificial offering (many of those “sacrificial offerings” in Scripture also foreshadowed this, as well as the idea of a High Priest who would offer sacrifice for the people) and by being 'lifted on high" (as Moses lifted the seraph for the people bitten by snakes to gaze on and live), Christ would ‘draw people to Him’ (who is God) and enable THEM to live.
Isaiah’s prophecy was about the people being made hard of heart.
Isaiah, knowing he himself is as guilty (not being God) as any other human being, needed to be cleansed in order to speak ‘for God’. But GOD does not need to be cleansed to speak for Himself, right?
Jesus Christ, the Messiah, is one who Himself (as God) does not need to be cleansed before He speaks. Isaiah was one of MANY prophets who noted the hard hearts and the turning away from God of men and women–they ‘turned’ in Isaiah’s time, they turned in Jesus’ time, they turn in OUR time.
Isaiah’s prophecy was about the people being made hard of heart.
Isaiah, knowing he himself is as guilty (not being God) as any other human being, needed to be cleansed in order to speak ‘for God’. But GOD does not need to be cleansed to speak for Himself, right?
Jesus Christ, the Messiah, is one who Himself (as God) does not need to be cleansed before He speaks. Isaiah was one of MANY prophets who noted the hard hearts and the turning away from God of men and women–they ‘turned’ in Isaiah’s time, they turned in Jesus’ time, they turn in OUR time.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Zahava, Jesus is the descendent of David.
Surely you are not attempting to deny that in the time of Herod, he asked HIS OWN SCRIPTURAL SCHOLARS, “Where is the one to be born who will be King of the Jews?”
And the scholars answered, “In Bethlehem of Judea”.
Now, why would Herod ask the people of his OWN TIME that question, and ACCEPT that answer, IF it ONLY meant that “King David” had been born in Bethlehem?
Obviously the Jewish people of that time were awaiting a Messiah. (I believe many still wait for him today, correct?) And certainly they don’t believe this with NO scriptural support, do they?
While I do not think that your interpretation of the passage as showing King DAVID being from Bethlehem is totally incorrect, it is INCOMPLETE. Jesus fulfils the prophecy.
Surely you are not attempting to deny that in the time of Herod, he asked HIS OWN SCRIPTURAL SCHOLARS, “Where is the one to be born who will be King of the Jews?”
And the scholars answered, “In Bethlehem of Judea”.
Now, why would Herod ask the people of his OWN TIME that question, and ACCEPT that answer, IF it ONLY meant that “King David” had been born in Bethlehem?
Obviously the Jewish people of that time were awaiting a Messiah. (I believe many still wait for him today, correct?) And certainly they don’t believe this with NO scriptural support, do they?
While I do not think that your interpretation of the passage as showing King DAVID being from Bethlehem is totally incorrect, it is INCOMPLETE. Jesus fulfils the prophecy.
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Zahava
Guest
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Zahava
Guest
Tantum, First I want to thank you for the way you have responded to my posts. I do NOT get the impression that you are replying with a “shove it to you” attitude and for that I am thankful.
Now, I am asking for your help. So that perhaps you can help me see something that I don’t see. I ask this request. Open the link for the 2 lines of Jesus. Scroll to page 4 or 5 to see them lined up side by side. Then you will see why Jews say Jesus does not fufill this requirement of being in the davidic line.
messiahtruth.com/torahchat/counter/genealogy.pdf
Where in scripture does Herod ask this question?
Sure the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. On another thread, I have a link of the requirements that a messiah has to fulfill from the Jewish Bible.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2911840&postcount=59
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AgnosTheist
Guest
i dont get it. WHAT was the prophecy of Isaiah that Jesus fulfilled?
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Lev23
Guest
Matthew 2:1-8
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi[a] from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”
When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. When he had called together all the people’s chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Messiah was to be born. “In Bethlehem in Judea,” they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:
" ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.(Micah 5:2)’"
Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”
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Lev23
Guest
To be born of a virgin-Isaiah 7:14/Matthew 1:18-22
He was rejected by his own-Isaiah 53:3/John 1:11
Was silent-Isaiah 53:7/Matthew 27:12-14
Was tried and condemned-Isaiah 53:8/Matthew 27:1-2
HE IS OUR SACRIFICE -Isaiah 53:5-6/1 Peter 2:24-25
There are so many more…
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Lev23
Guest
I hope this helps out Zahava..
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Zahava
Guest
Lev, you have not been following the thread. Micah is speaking about KING DAVID coming from Bethlehem NOT the messiah! reread it please
And I am speaking about in Tanach, where does it ask the question.
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Lev23
Guest
NO!
Zahava, his parables dealt with mysteries in the New Testament, they are different from the ones in the Old Testament for they explain things not revealed in the Old Testament.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
All who read their scriptures when Jesus taught his parables knew about the Kingdom from the prophets. Jesus’ parables contain information for his Kingdom in view. The information are for the those that can understand them, because they seek the Kingdom of God.
Jesus said to each of the seven churches in Rev 3-
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
Jesus ministry of parables is prophesied-
Psalm 78
O my people, hear my teaching;
listen to the words of my mouth.
I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter hidden things, things from of old-
what we have heard and known,
what our fathers have told us.
We will not hide them from their children;
we will tell the next generation
the praiseworthy deeds of the LORD,
his power, and the wonders he has done.
He decreed statutes for Jacob
and established the law in Israel,
which he commanded our forefathers
to teach their children,
so the next generation would know them,
even the children yet to be born,
and they in turn would tell their children.
Then they would put their trust in God
and would not forget his deeds
but would keep his commands.
They would not be like their forefathers—
a stubborn and rebellious generation,
whose hearts were not loyal to God,
whose spirits were not faithful to him.
Notice in verses 2-3, that his parables will sound like the Jewish “fathers”, and you can see that they do. You yourself said he does in post #9.
False Messiahs cannot reveal mysteries, they are unbelievers by definition and they never sound like the fathers, the ancestors of old. They always come with some new and unfamiliar doctrine.
Jesus’ parables had to do with the Kingdom to come, which was foretold in the Old Testament.
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AgnosTheist
Guest
hey how was the name ‘Immanuel’ fulfilled on Jesus?
Now this Chapter is something that i’d like to hear Zahava explaining.
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Zahava
Guest
Glady Agnos. But for the sake of retyping, here is the link.
Lev, the suffering Servant is the Children of Israel. All through Isaiah the Servant is Israel. Christians don’t look at the whole picture here.
messiahtruth.com/isai53a.html
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AgnosTheist
Guest
^ Thanks Zahava, there is just one little piece of puzzle that I couldnt connect. How do you reconcile the idea that Zion/Israel is the servant with the idea that the servant “bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors”?
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