I
Ilroy
Guest
I would suspect the same reason he hasn’t addressed many of the posts on this thread…he can’t twist them easily enough so he just ignores them.
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B
beeliner
Guest
I think that both myself and the other contributors have done that; of course, if you are going to automatically reject everything at odds with your own pre-conceived notions, well, perhaps others will be helped by the discussion.
Z
ziapueblo
Guest
Old Scholar,
Show me were Jesus quotes from Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations or Nahum?
Show me were the Apostles refer to Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations or Nahum?
Show me anywhere in the New Testament were Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations or Nahum is referred?
I have asked this of you twice and you have yet responded.
Matthew 12:24, “The queen of the south shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold a greater than Solomon here.”
Jesus refers to the Wisdom of Solomon.
Show me were Jesus quotes from Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations or Nahum?
Show me were the Apostles refer to Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations or Nahum?
Show me anywhere in the New Testament were Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations or Nahum is referred?
I have asked this of you twice and you have yet responded.
Matthew 12:24, “The queen of the south shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold a greater than Solomon here.”
Jesus refers to the Wisdom of Solomon.
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
**This is not a very good example for you. Jesus could very easily have been quoting from Leviticus 19:18.
As you probably know, this “golden rule” is also taught by every religion that has ever existed, including Islam, Judiasm, Jainism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, as well as all African Traditional Religions.**
This is not a quote of Jesus or an apostle but a statement made by the scribes and elders at the crucifixion.
**Here Jesus is probably quoting from Genesis. He is giving the parable of the sower and how to make a good life. In Sirach the context is the renewal of the earth after the flood and is not nearly the same as what Jesus is saying. This is too much of a stretch.
I could give you some quotes that are much closer than those you listed to show that the apocrypha was quoted, but the fact is that it was not quoted by Jesus or the apostles. There may be some verses in the apocrypha that are “similar” to the same words in the NT, but they are not quotes and in most cases are not even close.
The absence of any quotes from any of the apocryphal books seems to be very striking, especially with the hundreds of quotes from the Old Testament itself. Considering that the most used book at the time was probably the Septuagint and it included the apocrypha(or rather it is claimed that it did, we have no proof), you would think that if Jesus or the apostles thought the books were valid or inspired or truly books of the Hebrew Bible, they would certainly have quoted from them. It seems they completely ignored the apocrypha books when they wanted to support a statement with an authoritative source.
We know also that the writers were well aware of all those books and others so why did they never use them? Paul used material from other writings than the OT but never from the apocrypha.
How about all the errors in those books? Tobit claims to have been alive when Jeroboam revolted. This was in 931 B.C. and Tobit was written between 300 and 100 B.C. He also claime to have been alive when Assyria conquered Israel and this was 722 B.C. He only lived 158 years and the difference in these time periods is greater than that. Read Tobit 1:3-5 and 14:11.
Judith identifies Nebuchadnezzar as King of the Assyrians in Judith 1:1, 7, but he was not. It was a mistake. Wasn’t it Tobit that endorsed the superstitious use of fish liver to ward off demons in
Tobit 6:6-7 ?
The teaching of those books is equally in error.**
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
Sorry but you don’t know that Jesus quoted from Wisdom of Solomon. Soloman was a great man and a great king as well as the richest man in the Bible. He was wise and wrote at least two books in the Old Testament. It seems Jesus thought Soloman was a very wise man. And who thinks Solomon wrote the Wisdom of Soloman?Old Scholar,
Show me were Jesus quotes from Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations or Nahum?
Show me were the Apostles refer to Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations or Nahum?
Show me anywhere in the New Testament were Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations or Nahum is referred?
I have asked this of you twice and you have yet responded.
Matthew 12:24, “The queen of the south shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold a greater than Solomon here.”
Jesus refers to the Wisdom of Solomon.
*(I think you meant Matthew 12:42)*As to the others, there are hundreds of cases where Jesus and the apostles quoted from the Hebrew Old Testament. Jesus continually quoted from it. had he thought anything at all about the apocrypha books, he would have quoted from at least one of them at least once…
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
You keep saying that but the refutations never come, just saying I am wrong doesn’t actually cut it.
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
I didn’t really see any questions there…but I’ll comment on it paragraph by paragraph. It was by Lampo.
You submit to the authority of the church, I can’t find that authority in the Bible so I submit to the authority of God and He has given us His written word. What do you have that you can show me that gives authority to your church?
The church didn’t exist before the Bible, at least not before the Hebrew Bible and that is the one that is referred to hundreds of times by Jesus and the apostles. It was the apostles that set up the church by the inspiration of God.
The church did not teach that Scripture was derived from tradition in the early centuries. All the early church leaders thought that any tradition that contradicted Scripture was in error. All tradition that was pertaining to faith or morals was carefully written down so that we would know the truth. Can you give a reference for a single tradition that is not backed up by Scripture?
If you deny the inspiration of the Bible, then we can’t really have a good discussion. A Christian that doesn’t believe the Bible is inspired must question his faith, else what would you believe?
Sorry but when Scripture establishes the church and the church establishes Scripture, that certainly seems a little circular to me.
Finally there was a statement that said: “To believe in a fallible Church is to believe that Christ did not mean what he said and that he did not deliver on his promises.”
Once any church starts teaching anything regarding faith or morals that cannot be backed up by Scripture, then that church is fallible. The claim of infallibility is wrong. Nowhere does the church receive infallibility. Where would it come from?
The only infallible human being ever to exist on this earth was Jesus. No one else! To think that any church, or man, could be infallible is anathema.
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
You will find how to get it here:
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.html
You will have to register and then you can get it in PDF format. It is 5.2mb but I feel sure you have a fast connection. I copied it directly from there. It is NPFN2-06. It is in the preface to Wisdom.
And to hear the wisdom of Solomon you will need to read Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon. He was a very wise man indeed but he lived long before whoever wrote the Wisdom of Solomon and as you know we have no idea who wrote it. You can be sure however that whoever it was he got his information from those books.
I
Ilroy
Guest
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
I
Ilroy
Guest
Interesting…you should read that whole document…or easier still, just do this…“ctrl f” and search for “book of wisdom”. In about a minute and a half I came across this from the letter to Theodora:
- Wherefore, though you are already running in the way, I urge a
willing horse, as the saying goes, and implore you, while you regret in
your Lucinius a true brother, to rejoice as well that he now reigns
with Christ. For, as it is written in the book of Wisdom, he was “taken
away lest that wickedness should alter his understanding…for his soul
pleased the Lord…and he…in a short time fulfilled a long time.”
I’ll get back to you on the quote you gave after a bit.
I
Ilroy
Guest
And farther down the document you will find this from Jerome:
A. Do you expect me to explain the purposes and plans of God? The Book
of Wisdom gives an answer to your foolish question: [5251] “Look not
into things above thee, and search not things too mighty for thee.” And
elsewhere, [5252] “Make not thyself overwise, and argue not more than
is fitting.” And in the same place, “In wisdom and simplicity of heart
seek God.” You will perhaps deny the authority of this book; listen
then to the Apostle blowing the Gospel trumpet: [5253] “O the depth of
the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable
are His judgments, and His ways past tracing out! For who hath known
the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor?” Your questions
are such as he elsewhere describes: [5254] “But foolish and ignorant
questioning avoid, knowing that they gender strifes.” And in
Ecclesiastes (a book concerning which there can be no doubt) we read,
[5255] “I said, I will be wise, but it was far from me. That which is
exceeding deep, who can find it out?” You ask me to tell you why the
potter makes one vessel to honour, another to dishonour, and will not
be satisfied with Paul, who replies on behalf of his Lord, [5256] “O
man, who art thou that repliest against God?”
A. Do you expect me to explain the purposes and plans of God? The Book
of Wisdom gives an answer to your foolish question: [5251] “Look not
into things above thee, and search not things too mighty for thee.” And
elsewhere, [5252] “Make not thyself overwise, and argue not more than
is fitting.” And in the same place, “In wisdom and simplicity of heart
seek God.” You will perhaps deny the authority of this book; listen
then to the Apostle blowing the Gospel trumpet: [5253] “O the depth of
the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable
are His judgments, and His ways past tracing out! For who hath known
the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor?” Your questions
are such as he elsewhere describes: [5254] “But foolish and ignorant
questioning avoid, knowing that they gender strifes.” And in
Ecclesiastes (a book concerning which there can be no doubt) we read,
[5255] “I said, I will be wise, but it was far from me. That which is
exceeding deep, who can find it out?” You ask me to tell you why the
potter makes one vessel to honour, another to dishonour, and will not
be satisfied with Paul, who replies on behalf of his Lord, [5256] “O
man, who art thou that repliest against God?”
Z
ziapueblo
Guest
Show me were Jesus quoted from Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum.
The problem is . . . you can’t. Neither Jesus or his Apostles quoted from them.
How do you know that St. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians or Ephesians? How do you know that St. Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew? How do you know that St. James wrote the epistle of James?
Thanks for noticing!
That is not the case.
Gleason Archer and G.C. Chirichigno, Old Testament Quotations in the New Testament: A Complete Survey (Chicago, IL: Moody Press, 1983), xxv-xxxii.
B
beeliner
Guest
I cry foul!
I took considerable time from my busy schedule as a retiree to reply to your post, point by point.
You reply only to my ‘tag line’ and short shrift at that!
Not a very convincing defense of your position!
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
Most of the early church leaders were well aware of those books and read them, as they said, for historical and educational purposes. For Jerome to quote from them would not be unusual. However for an apostle or Jesus to do so in inspired Scripture would authenticate them.
As for the Wisdom of Solomon, I read it and most of the other books as well. I read them for what they are however. Good reading but do not ascribe to any of their doctrines. They teach too many things that are not Scriptural for me to believe them.
They are very good however for their beauty and poetry and I believe for instruction and historical writings. There are some things in it that are not found in the Bible that may, in some cases, explain things that the Bible does not. I do not dismiss it entirely, but I do not compare it in any manner with the Bible as I know it. It has too many errors. However I do recommend having it and reading it.
I
Ilroy
Guest
Ok…for your quote about Wisdom, here are the parts of the qoute you left out from the document you linked:
Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs.
Dedicated to Chromatius and Heliodorus, a.d. 393. The Preface is
important as showing the help given to Jerome by his friends, the
rapidity of his work, and his view of the Apocrypha. We give the two
chief passages. (the commenter here gives just parts of Jerome’s writing)
It is well that my letter should couple those who are coupled in the
episcopate; and that I should not separate on paper those who are bound
in one by the law of Christ. I would have written the commentaries on
Hosea, Amos, Zechariah, and the Kings, which you ask of me, if I had
not been prevented by illness. You give me comfort by the supplies you
send me; you support my secretaries and copyists, so that the efforts
of all my powers may be given to you. And then all at once comes a
thick crowd of people with all sorts of demands, as if it was just that
I should neglect your hunger and work for others, or as if, in the
matter of giving and receiving, I had a debt to any one but you. And
so, though I am broken by a long illness, yet, not to be altogether
silent and dumb amongst you this year, I have dedicated to you three
days’ work, that is to say, the translation of the three books of
Solomon. (interesting - not 2 books of Solomon as you said earlier?)
After speaking of the books of the Wisdom of Solomon and
Ecclesiasticus, which were sent at the same time, the Preface
continues:
After this, the part you qouted.
Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs.
Dedicated to Chromatius and Heliodorus, a.d. 393. The Preface is
important as showing the help given to Jerome by his friends, the
rapidity of his work, and his view of the Apocrypha. We give the two
chief passages. (the commenter here gives just parts of Jerome’s writing)
It is well that my letter should couple those who are coupled in the
episcopate; and that I should not separate on paper those who are bound
in one by the law of Christ. I would have written the commentaries on
Hosea, Amos, Zechariah, and the Kings, which you ask of me, if I had
not been prevented by illness. You give me comfort by the supplies you
send me; you support my secretaries and copyists, so that the efforts
of all my powers may be given to you. And then all at once comes a
thick crowd of people with all sorts of demands, as if it was just that
I should neglect your hunger and work for others, or as if, in the
matter of giving and receiving, I had a debt to any one but you. And
so, though I am broken by a long illness, yet, not to be altogether
silent and dumb amongst you this year, I have dedicated to you three
days’ work, that is to say, the translation of the three books of
Solomon. (interesting - not 2 books of Solomon as you said earlier?)
After speaking of the books of the Wisdom of Solomon and
Ecclesiasticus, which were sent at the same time, the Preface
continues:
After this, the part you qouted.
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
You should and I plead guilty. I never properly answered your post #17. I apologize to you for that.
However I am sure you can see it seems to be me against the whole world and I try my best to answer all posts. However my computer time is limited and I am now being called. (Friday night is usually “eat out” night here)
I promise I will, at next opportunity, read your post more carefully and answer it as best as I can. I know everyone takes time to look up things in order to properly answer a post and they all should be answered.
Bear with me. I only get so long outside my cell. Later!
I
Ilroy
Guest
I find it curious why, in all the volumes of Jerome’s writings, you can find him quoting scripture left and right including the books you are disputing. Nowhere in those writings have I seen him quote anything from what all Christians recognize as non scriptural writings. He quotes Wisdom and the others many times in the exact same way he quotes the rest of Scripture.
I also find it curious that from the hundreds of writings we have extant of Jerome you can come up with just one quote to “show” your side to be right yet you dismiss the numerous things that have been put forth to show your opinion is in error.
And the fact remains that when the Church spoke on the subject, Jerome accepted Her judgement as the authoritative judgement that it is.
A
adstrinity
Guest
No, it was the archangel Raphael who, in Tobit 6: 17-18 advised, “When you go into the bridal chamber, take the fish’s liver and heart, and place them on the embers for the incense. As soon as the demon smells the odor they give off, he will flee and never again show himself near her. Then when you are about to have intercourse with her, both of you first rise up to pray. Beg the Lord of heaven to show you mercy and grant you deliverance. But do not be afraid, for she was set apart for you before the world existed. You will save her, and she will go with you. And I suppose that you will have children by her, who will take the place of brothers for you. So do not worry.”
Prior to this, in verse 5, Raphael says, "The angel then told him: “Cut the fish open and take out its gall, heart, and liver, and keep them with you; but throw away the entrails. Its gall, heart, and liver make useful medicines.”
Verses 8 & 9 state, "He answered: “As regards the fish’s heart and liver, if you burn them so that the smoke surrounds a man or a woman who is afflicted by a demon or evil spirit, the affliction will leave him completely, and no demons will ever return to him again. And as for the gall, if you rub it on the eyes of a man who has cataracts, blowing into his eyes right on the cataracts, his sight will be restored.”
There is nothing superstitious about the use of fish liver to ward off demons when God’s archangel, following God’s orders, advises/commands the boy to do this anymore than baptismal waters will infuse grace into the recipient. The angel said that the smoke will get rid of the demon and the gall will remove cateracts, both of these things happened. It is not the smoke, but, the angel sent by God who gets rid of the demon. It is not the smoke but the prayers that get rid of the demon. The surrender of one’s doubts to obey God’s word is seen in the willingness to obey the command. God hears the prayer, but, how would the rest of us know if the boy prayed? He followed God’s word by following that order.
At the very least, the story of the fish in these chapters can be seen as a prelude to Jesus & fish, or how God will provide. Is it not Awesome that God gives Tobias exactly what is needed to fulfill the story’s narrative?
This is my absolute hands down favourite Book of the Bible.
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