Jesus quoting the Deutero Canonicals

[Chaldean_Rite]

Everything was always checked against the Scriptures. If it couldn’t be proven there, it was false…

Christ gave authority to HIS CHURCH, not the Church of “Old Scholar”

Matt: 18
16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Note that the Church is the FINAL authority here.

The Church is the TEACHER OF EVEN THE ANGELS!

Ephesians 3:
10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places **through the church.

**NOT THROUGH THE “SCRIPTURES” ALONE OLD SCHOLAR. **THROUGH THE CHURCH.

How can this verse be fulfilled without an authoritative, visible, catholic, holy, Church?

**The angels cannot depend thousands of contradicting theologies put forth by the Christians who adhere to SS (or even those dissenting Catholics for that matter); they relay on the “PILLAR AND FOUNDATION” of truth, the Catholic Church, fouded by Jesus Christ, on the rock, Peter and the rest of the Apostles, AND THEIR SUCCESSORS.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Therein lies the impasse. I believe that Scripture, Tradition, and the Church’s teaching authority (Magesterium) are all equally important, you only believe in Scripture.

Why would you believe something so important without proof? Does your teaching authority tell you where they get their ideas? Can they show you where it came from?

I thought not!

I can prove all my beliefs with written Scripture.

 

[Old_Scholar]

O.S. … do you really expect to see the supernatural Body/Blood of Christ in the Eucharist ? Christ is invisibly present via H.S. to all Christians … not just at Eucharist. He will not be seen again by mankind til the end days.

Most of matter here on earth is empty space. An atom is 99 % empty space. There is plenty of room inside material wine/bread chemical structure for Christ’s supernatural body to exist. Christ is present in the hosts … but, He is invisible. It takes spiritual eyes to perceive the Lord. Certainly you understand this concept … as frequently taught to us by Christ himself.

So you agree it is a spiritual thing???

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

I can prove all my beliefs with written Scripture.

And you have already relied on the Catholic Church, through her Liturgy and through Her Counciles to write, preserve, and determine even the biblical canon.

angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deuteros/graham_contents.html

 

[Old_Scholar]

Do you already know the answer to this and ask it for an ulterior reason?

No it is an honest question. So much is made of how important it is that I wanted to be sure it is done correctly…

If one doesn’t really, fully participate, then does it work?

 

[Lampo]

The church didn’t give us the Bible. It was the people of the church who had accepted it as authoritative and partly because of all the “thus saith the Lords” in it and all the “It is writtens” in it. They recognized God’s voice in the books and many of them were considered Scripture as they were being written. Read 2 Peter for confirmation of that.

The reason for the official canon by the church was to exclude some other books that were being taught in some of the churches. They took the books, that were always taught anyhow, and considered them canon and thereby eliminated those that did not belong.

They had to ask the questions: Was it accepted by the overall church. Did the people bear witness of it by the Holy Spirit and did it not conflict with the already revealed body of Scripture. The Church was able to reject false books and this would insure the right ones were accepted because it would delay their recognition. At that time and even hundreds of years afterwards, there were numerous false letters and forgeries circulating, they identified them as false by putting them alongside the apostles teachings already delivered. They have the content that was consistent with the already accepted writings.

You said:

Originally Posted by Old Scholar View Post
But once a tradition begins to involve faith and morals, then it must be found in Scripture or it is false.

Will you answer my question with a yes or no? Is there a list of which books should be included in Scripture in the Bible?

 

[Old_Scholar]

Where in Scripture does it say that all teachings are found within Scripture?

Can you give me an example of a teaching that pertains to faith or morals and if it cannot be found in Scripture, then can you tell me where it came from originally?

 

[Lampo]

No it is an honest question. So much is made of how important it is that I wanted to be sure it is done correctly…

If one doesn’t really, fully participate, then does it work?

You really don’t know if the Catholic Church deprives people from receiving the Eucharist?

 

[Old_Scholar]

Saint Augustine had the right idea when he said, “I would not believe in the Gospel if the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.” He was aware that before the Catholic Church determined the Canon of the bible, there was no “bible” that anyone agreed on. This, of course, crushes Sola Scriptura for protestants whom can never give a satisfactory definition to what christians did prior to the Ecumenical Councils of the 4th century which determined what defined the bible. Furthermore, the arrogance of Sola Scriptura is overlooked by us living in the 21st century. How can this be the truth, personal interpretation of the bible-no authority at all, if the 75% of the world was illiterate prior to the 16th century? How can this possibly be the truth if prior to the printing press invention, only the elect, rich, and clergy could get their hands on the Scriptures? That is ignorance. Before 1933, EVERY protestant church inherited the Catholic Church’s position on contraception. Of course, that is no longer the case. That is simply a reality that describe the evolution of many protestant faiths to accommodate societies needs because they can do whatever they want, even to the point of re-writing Church history to fit whatever is taught in their local bible study.

through His Sacred Heart,
CR

St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430):

Let them show their church if they can, not by the speeches and mumblings of the Africans, not by the councils of their bishops, not by the writings of any of their champions, not by fraudulent signs and wonders, because we have been prepared and made cautious also against these things by the Word of the Lord; but [let them show their church]** by a command of the Law, by the predictions of the prophets, by songs from the Psalms, by the words of the Shepherd Himself, by the preaching and labors of the evangelists; that is, by all the canonical authorities of the sacred books.**
(On the Unity of the Church, 16, quoted in Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part I [Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1971], p. 159.)

It would seem that Augustine thought as I do.

 

[Lampo]

St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430):

Let them show their church if they can, not by the speeches and mumblings of the Africans, not by the councils of their bishops, not by the writings of any of their champions, not by fraudulent signs and wonders, because we have been prepared and made cautious also against these things by the Word of the Lord; but [let them show their church]** by a command of the Law, by the predictions of the prophets, by songs from the Psalms, by the words of the Shepherd Himself, by the preaching and labors of the evangelists; that is, by all the canonical authorities of the sacred books.**
(On the Unity of the Church, 16, quoted in Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part I [Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1971], p. 159.)

It would seem that Augustine thought as I do.

Do you agree with Augustine on this one too?

“The Catholic Church is the work of Divine Providence, achieved through the prophecies of the prophets, through the Incarnation and the teaching of Christ, through the journeys of the Apostles, through the suffering, the crosses, the blood and the death of the martyrs, through the admirable lives of the saints. When, then, we see so much help on God’s part, so much progress and so much fruit, shall we hesitate to bury ourselves in the bosom of that Church? For starting from the Apostolic Chair down through successions of bishops, even unto the open confession of all mankind, it has possessed the crown of teaching authority.”

• St. Augustine, The Advantage of Believing, 391 A.D.

 

[Old_Scholar]

No, I didn’t intend to portray you improperly. I do apologize.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Old_Scholar]

And your friends honestly call themselves “Romanists” instead of Catholic?

No! That was my choice of words.

 

[Lampo]

No! That was my choice of words.

That’s a little derogatory isn’t it? Are you as quick to apologize as I was? Here is what you said in case your forgot:

Originally Posted by Old Scholar View Post
I have friends who profess to be Romanists but admit they don’t own a Bible.

That statement doesn’t seem very truthful given what you admitted.

 

[ziapueblo]

There are many but for starters, check these two:

John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.”

Most translations translate this verse as a statement of fact, not a command. Jesus is saying to the Jews that He is the fulfillment of their OT Scriptures. Also, if this verse proves Th Bible Only theory, then it proves that the OT ONLY is sufficient since the New Testament had not been written yet.

Acts 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

Searching the Scriptures daily is not a command but a statement of fact.

St. Luke is simply contrasting the receptive attitude of the Thessalonians who refused to recieve the Christians message (Acts 17:1-8).

The Scriptures refer to the Old Testament. If this passage proves The Bible Alone theology then it proves The Old Testament Only.

These passages in Scripture do not command us to search the Scriptures only

2 Timothy 3:16, “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,”.

Notice that Scripture again is useful not sufficient or exclusive.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430):

Let them show their church if they can, not by the speeches and mumblings of the Africans, not by the councils of their bishops, not by the writings of any of their champions, not by fraudulent signs and wonders, because we have been prepared and made cautious also against these things by the Word of the Lord; but [let them show their church]** by a command of the Law, by the predictions of the prophets, by songs from the Psalms, by the words of the Shepherd Himself, by the preaching and labors of the evangelists; that is, by all the canonical authorities of the sacred books.**
(On the Unity of the Church, 16, quoted in Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part I [Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1971], p. 159.)

It would seem that Augustine thought as I do.

And how did you arrive at this conclusion? Or perhaps, you are interpreting this quote by St. Augustine, a Catholic, differently? Hmmm, I wonder how many times that has happened with Scripture?

For example:

I read:

John 20
21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

And from my reason, a faculty that makes me in the image of God, and from basic english, and common sense, I can only ask myself:

**How would they know what sins to forgive or retain if they were not confessed to them first?

**and by reason and faith, arrive at the conclusion that the Sacrament of Confession is Christ’s divine will.

But you read (and I’m assuming this, you tell me if I’m wrong):
Confession is not real. We do not need to confess our sins to men because they are sinners too. Therefore, I can confess my sins to God (something Catholics agree with), and I always be forgiven! Am I wrong here? Namely, that you do NOT need to confess your sins a PRIEST (an ordained man by a Bishop was ordained by a previous Bishop steming from the Apostolic age).

 

[Old_Scholar]

I absolutely believe both. I absolutely believe you are interpreting St. Augustine out of context too. I wonder if Pope Benedict XVI knows this about Augustine and what you claim?

Augustine also had this to say:

St. Augustine of Hippo:

What more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For Holy Scripture sets a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wise more than it behooves to be wise,” but be wise, as he says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God has allotted the measure of faith.”

 

[elvisman]

There are many but for starters, check these two:

John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.”

Acts 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

Everything was always checked against the Scriptures. If it couldn’t be proven there, it was false…

Old “Scholar” -
As for John 5:39 - read the entire story in context.

Jesus was rebuking the Jews for searching the scriptures - NOT because they didn’t contain truth. BUT because they thought they had life because of them. They depended on them and the prophets and not in him, who is the fulfillment of the Old Testament.
Context, context, CONTEXT . . .

This is the problem with Sola Scriptura adherents. You pick verses but refuse to take ALL of the scriptures in context. What do you do with Matt. 18:15-19? Just in case you don’t remember - in it, Jesus is giving ALL authority to the Church.

I anxiously await your response.

 

[Old_Scholar]

You said:

Will you answer my question with a yes or no? Is there a list of which books should be included in Scripture in the Bible?

You know there is no list. Some books were still being written.

 

[Lampo]

Augustine also had this to say:

St. Augustine of Hippo:

What more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For Holy Scripture sets a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wise more than it behooves to be wise,” but be wise, as he says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God has allotted the measure of faith.”

And yet he said this too:

“The Catholic Church is the work of Divine Providence, achieved through the prophecies of the prophets, through the Incarnation and the teaching of Christ, through the journeys of the Apostles, through the suffering, the crosses, the blood and the death of the martyrs, through the admirable lives of the saints. When, then, we see so much help on God’s part, so much progress and so much fruit, shall we hesitate to bury ourselves in the bosom of that Church? For starting from the Apostolic Chair down through successions of bishops, even unto the open confession of all mankind, it has possessed the crown of teaching authority.”

• St. Augustine, The Advantage of Believing, 391 A.D.

Perhaps all of Augustine’s writings should be considered when trying to discern his school of thought.

 

[elvisman]

Augustine also had this to say:

St. Augustine of Hippo:

What more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For Holy Scripture sets a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wise more than it behooves to be wise,” but be wise, as he says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God has allotted the measure of faith.”

"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."
St. Augustine, Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.