Jesus' Resurrected Body: Superfluous? Functioning? Facade?

[vicwestlad]

glendab:

Vic, I am sorry if I seem insulting, but you are wrong to propose the things you do and expect to be taken seriously.

Wrong? You mean morally wrong? Not sure I get you here but, as I’ve pointed out, it’s perfectly reasonable to ask what a god would need with a human body. Certainly you haven’t been able to provide any answers.

And either a human body is functioning or it’s a facade? Feel free to argue otherwise, which you’ve thus far failed to do.

So far you’ve just intimated that you think the questions are somehow illegitimate. Often when people cannot think of a good response they just attack the question in lieu of an argument. I assume that’s not the case with you but so far you’re proving otherwise.

 

[travissbeloved]

Travis, the title of the thread is “Jesus’ Resurrected Body”.

None, which you mostly seem to agree with since you said the point is physically relating to us which won’t happen till the end of the world.

Such as?

Can you give me a couple of examples of this?

And secondly, why would he need internal organs for this since he doesn’t need to breath according to you?

That’s all? He could accomplish that with a video. So again, it appears to be pretty much superfluous.

I’m sure you wouldn’t go that far but you seem fairly close. He may, repeat may, want to use it for this or that but certainly isn’t required.

And that’s just the outside of his body. You certainly still haven’t given me any reason for him to have lungs, or any internal organs.

I’m upset that you always take my words out of context.

1. I do think that it is absolutely necessary for Jesus to have his body. He had his body before his resurrection, why would that change afterwards? Why would he change the makings of his body after he resurrected? That does not make any sense.
2. You did not address the issue of the Holy Eucharist which is taken by most Catholics on Sundays and some weekdays.
3. I cannot give you an example of things Jesus may or may not do in heaven with his body because I am not there, never have been. In the bible it says that we cannot even fathom what the joys of heaven will be like so I just assume the bible is telling the truth and I cannot fathom what we will be doing with our bodies in heaven after the Final Judgment.
4. Sister Faustina who is now Saint Faustina had many private revelations of Jesus. Look it up.
5. I highly doubt people would believe it if he just handed out a video, they would want to see the real thing…like doubting Thomas.
6. I’m not sure how or why you keep separating an outward body from the internal organs of a body. Skin is an organ. Wouldn’t it be gross if he walked around with his muscles all exposed!?
7. Sorry for not paying attention to the name of the thread:blush: Also my name is not Travis, that is my husband’s name and therefore I am his beloved.

 

[travissbeloved]

Also I never said he DOESN’T breathe, I said he doesn’t NEED to breathe. God doesn’t NEED anything. He is God.

 

[vicwestlad]

travissbeloved:

I’m upset that you always take my words out of context.

Certainly don’t mean to.

travissbeloved:

I do think that it is absolutely necessary for Jesus to have his body. He had his body before his resurrection, why would that change afterwards?

But why would it be absolutely necessary for him to have a body including lungs, heart, liver, etc if he doesn’t even use them? How can lungs be “necessary” if he doesn’t breath? Sorry, but this just doesn’t sense at all and is actually self-contradictory.

travissbeloved:

Why would he change the makings of his body after he resurrected? That does not make any sense.

Of course it does. He would need to breath oxygen on earth, process food, turn it into energy to maintain the cells of the body. There is no such requirements for an actual god in the afterlife. Feel free to argue otherwise but there’s more logical problems that direction.

travissbeloved:

You did not address the issue of the Holy Eucharist which is taken by most Catholics on Sundays and some weekdays.

Sorry, didn’t realize you were serious. Not sure I even get your point. You surely don’t think you’re actually eating Jesus’ physical body do you? The wafer is made of wheat, flour, and water. In polls, most Catholics don’t believe they’re eating Jesus’ actual body.

Plus, if you’re drinking his real blood that means he has to make it with his heart and that would require food and oxygen and you have a fully functioning body and he would need to breath which you said he doesn’t. So, if you truly believe you’re drinking his blood, you’ve, in effect, contradicted earlier statements.

travissbeloved:

I cannot give you an example of things Jesus may or may not do in heaven with his body because I am not there, never have been.

But if you can’t even give me one example of what he could use it for, I think that bolsters my argument that it’s superfluous. Don’t see how that helps you at all.

travissbeloved:

Sister Faustina who is now Saint Faustina had many private revelations of Jesus. Look it up.

First, this is anecdotal evidence. And second, how do we know this wasn’t just a vision?
Third, is that all Jesus had needed of a human body for the last 2,000 years? Just to visit people on earth once in a while?
And fourth, the question you’ve bee avoiding is why would Jesus need internal organs to visit Sister Faustina?

travissbeloved:

I highly doubt people would believe it if he just handed out a video, they would want to see the real thing…like doubting Thomas.

People won’t believe a video that Jesus is showing? He could also show some people like St. Paul who have already been resurrected.

Anyway, I think most people understand the concept of getting your body back in working condition. No, I don’t think this idea of yours has much merit.

travissbeloved:

I’m not sure how or why you keep separating an outward body from the internal organs of a body. Skin is an organ. Wouldn’t it be gross if he walked around with his muscles all exposed!?

The question about the internal organs is important because you’ve already said the purpose of Jesus having a physical body is so that he can relate to us in the afterlife, by which you appear to mean hugging or touching us (let me know if I’m wrong). I’ve responded by asking the question why he would need internal organs to “relate” to us and you don’t address it.

travissbeloved:

Sorry for not paying attention to the name of the thread Also my name is not Travis, that is my husband’s name and therefore I am his beloved.

Ok, I’ll call you T’sbeloved if that’s ok. Just want to keep it shorter.

Also I never said he DOESN’T breathe, I said he doesn’t NEED to breathe. God doesn’t NEED anything. He is God.

Right, so why would he have lungs if he doesn’t need to breath?

 

[travissbeloved]

Certainly don’t mean to.

But why would it be absolutely necessary for him to have a body including lungs, heart, liver, etc if he doesn’t even use them? How can lungs be “necessary” if he doesn’t breath? Sorry, but this just doesn’t sense at all and is actually self-contradictory.

Of course it does. He would need to breath oxygen on earth, process food, turn it into energy to maintain the cells of the body. There is no such requirements for an actual god in the afterlife. Feel free to argue otherwise but there’s more logical problems that direction.

Sorry, didn’t realize you were serious. Not sure I even get your point. You surely don’t think you’re actually eating Jesus’ physical body do you? The wafer is made of wheat, flour, and water. In polls, most Catholics don’t believe they’re eating Jesus’ actual body.

Plus, if you’re drinking his real blood that means he has to make it with his heart and that would require food and oxygen and you have a fully functioning body and he would need to breath which you said he doesn’t. So, if you truly believe you’re drinking his blood, you’ve, in effect, contradicted earlier statements.

But if you can’t even give me one example of what he could use it for, I think that bolsters my argument that it’s superfluous. Don’t see how that helps you at all.

First, this is anecdotal evidence. And second, how do we know this wasn’t just a vision?
Third, is that all Jesus had needed of a human body for the last 2,000 years? Just to visit people on earth once in a while?
And fourth, the question you’ve bee avoiding is why would Jesus need internal organs to visit Sister Faustina?

People won’t believe a video that Jesus is showing? He could also show some people like St. Paul who have already been resurrected.

Anyway, I think most people understand the concept of getting your body back in working condition. No, I don’t think this idea of yours has much merit.

The question about the internal organs is important because you’ve already said the purpose of Jesus having a physical body is so that he can relate to us in the afterlife, by which you appear to mean hugging or touching us (let me know if I’m wrong). I’ve responded by asking the question why he would need internal organs to “relate” to us and you don’t address it.

Ok, I’ll call you T’sbeloved if that’s ok. Just want to keep it shorter.

Right, so why would he have lungs if he doesn’t need to breath?

I will address all of this later. I am being kicked out of my office for about an hour. Be back soon!

But just so you know TRUE Roman Catholic truly believe that the bread and wine is the body and blood of Jesus Christ and I am sad to hear that you have been told otherwise by Catholics none the less. The priest turns the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ during transubstantiation during the mass…this is what we call the liturgy of the Eucharist and it is basically the core of the Catholic faith. Protestants do not believe this but we as Catholics do. I’m not sure where you were hearing otherwise…

 

[TimothyH]

But this is merely asserting what you said before. You didn’t answer my questions. Here they are again:

To the question does Jesus breath you said, “I guess not, if he doesn’t want to”. My question was:

You also said, maybe he breaths on Tuesdays if he feels like it. So my response was:

So, probably best not just to keep asserting something without addressing my points. Makes your argument look awfully weak.

OK, I’ll go back to the original question.

What can Jesus do with a human body that he can’t do without it?

Live. He can’t live without it.

There was a desert monk named Abba Pambo, a very wise monk who rarely spoke. One day the archbishop of Alexandria came to visit. The brethren who were assembled said to Abba Pambo, “Say something to the archbishop, so that he may be edified.” The old man said to them, “If he is not edified by my silence, he will not be edified by my speech.”

-Tim-

There was a

 

[vicwestlad]

TimothyH:

Live. He can’t live without it.

Just so I’m getting you right. Jesus needs to breath oxygen and eat food to live, or else he’d die?

 

[Aloysium]

Just so I’m getting you right. Jesus needs to breath oxygen and eat food to live, or else he’d die?

I don’t think I can help you with your question as the answer has not been revealed.
I am guessing that you will have difficulty making sense of the Truth.
If you are truly interested in that truth, I would suggest you immerse oneself in the well-developed teachings of the Church.
I don’t see much point in asking random idiots like myself on the Internet.

From my perspective, seeing that Christ’s resurrection has been revealed, it would make sense to not take so seriously what you may have been taught.
In the face of Reality, secular understanding does not capture more than the surface workings of what is a fallen world.
At least keep your mind open; there is far, far more to reality than you can imagine.

How about if I offer you my opinion about the risen Lord.

Let’s take for example: John 20 :26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them.** Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them** and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

How would Jesus appear in the room? How does He go through walls?
I will suggest to you that His body was completely “concrete” in its existence. He was not a ghost; quite the opposite, it was more like a solid pushing through a cloud.
In other words, our existence is more like that of “ghosts”.
Think about it, you would not even know you had lungs except through perception, thought and education.
They are a totally important part of who you are and all you have are images and ideas: merely pointing to what is real, like wisps of smoke.

You will not find a solution to your questions holding on to your current world view. Hopefully, you will not trade the Truth for the appearance of certainty.

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

One thing that distinguishes Christianity from other ideas of the afterlife is that Jesus didn’t just become a god when he died, like Roman Emperors. He came back to life in the flesh, in a human body, the same one that was lying in the tomb (transformed but still human). That’s why the tomb was empty.

But I’ve never quite understood this concept. I see two main problems with it: (1) It seems superfluous to me. (2) It’s either functioning or it’s a facade.

1. Superfluous

What would a god need with a physical human body? When you pray to Jesus, does he hear you with his human ears? Could he hear you without his human ears? Obviously he could. So why does he need them? When you pray for Jesus to intervene in your life, such as keep your family safe on vacation, does he use his human arms or strength? Obviously not.

What can Jesus do with a human body that he can’t do without it?

1. Functioning or facade?

If Jesus has a physical body then does that mean he breaths? If not, then it’s not a human body. It’s just a shell, a facade. If he breaths, then he has lungs. If he doesn’t have lungs, it’s just a facade. If he has lungs, then does he have all his internal organs. This, to me, seems problematic if taken to it’s logical conclusion.

Thoughts on either, or both?

Jesus’ human body gives Him no special advantage.

It is the result of divine and human nature coming together because of His love for us. Christ’s human body is a constant reminder of what He has done for us, and how great and deep is His love for us.

It isn’t some tool of God. Jesus isn’t only God. We often forget that Jesus is fully God AND fully Man.

Anyway, God didn’t think that the hypostatic union; this wonderful coming together of divine and human flesh was going to advantage Him in anyway. That’s not the point. It was a sacrifice! God longs to have a relationship with us, and to save us from our sins He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to live a perfect life and die on the cross.

Now, about Jesus in heaven.

Many describe heaven as this sort of spaceless, timeless, purely spiritual expanse.

So what you speak of, of Jesus having lungs to breathe through now etc, doesn’t make much sense.

Furthermore, Jesus doesn’t need to do these things, and these things do not take away from his humanity. The saved will all have glorified bodies like Him one day, and that won’t take away their human nature.

On where Jesus’ body is in heaven, the Protestant apologist William Lane Craig has given a pretty good answer:

youtube.com/watch?v=aNnuEU2XLz4

 

[Aloysium]

Interesting concept described in the video
Another way to think of it is to relate Christ’s bodily existence to what is happening here.
Now, you clearly exist but I know nothing of you unless you post.
Your posting brings you into existence here on this thread, but you were already here and in a more real place. I didn’t know it though.
Similarly with heaven
Something like that.

 

[vicwestlad]

Aloysium:

I don’t think I can help you with your question as the answer has not been revealed.

According to your colleague, TimothyH just above, that answer has been revealed. Jesus needs a human body to survive. What do you think of TimothyH’s answer?

Aloysium:

If you are truly interested in that truth, I would suggest you immerse oneself in the well-developed teachings of the Church.

Since you say the answer has not been revealed, then don’t see how there can be well-developed Church teachings on this. However, if you can direct me to this Church teaching, I’d be appreciative since I’m finding it hard to come by.

Aloysium:

I will suggest to you that His body was completely “concrete” in its existence. He was not a ghost; quite the opposite, it was more like a solid pushing through a cloud.
In other words, our existence is more like that of “ghosts”.

Not quite sure what you mean by “concrete” but if he was physical and not a ghost, he wouldn’t be able to walk through walls. And that still doesn’t explain why he would need lungs or any internal organs.

Aloysium:

Think about it, you would not even know you had lungs except through perception, thought and education. They are a totally important part of who you are and all you have are images and ideas: merely pointing to what is real, like wisps of smoke.

And the point you’re making is…?

Aloysium:

You will not find a solution to your questions holding on to your current world view.

Ok, which worldview would allow me to find a solution?

 

[vicwestlad]

Sultan of Swing:

It isn’t some tool of God. Jesus isn’t only God. We often forget that Jesus is fully God AND fully Man.

If he’s fully man, then he breaths oxygen, right? And he needs to drink water, right? If not, he’s not “fully” man.
Sultan of Swing:

Many describe heaven as this sort of spaceless, timeless, purely spiritual expanse. So what you speak of, of Jesus having lungs to breathe through now etc, doesn’t make much sense.

Thank you. That’s my point. It doesn’t make sense?

So if Jesus doesn’t have lungs, does he just have an outer shell of a body then with no internal organs, just a hollow?
Sultan of Swing:

On where Jesus’ body is in heaven, the Protestant apologist William Lane Craig has given a pretty good answer:

youtube.com/watch?v=aNnuEU2XLz4

His “answer” causes more questions than answers.
Here’s a statements from Craig:

[maybe] He no longer exhibits his human nature in the form of a physical body

This actually goes against your statement that he is “fully man”. If he exits his physical body he can hardly be called “fully” man.

He also says that Christ left this universe to inhabit some other kind of area which he cannot explain. This makes no sense for a physical body. If his physical body occupies some space outside this universe, then he’s talking about a parallel universe or a non-physical area where his physical body would be superfluous. Which is again, my point.

So Dr. Craig had not even come close to solving this problem.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

Then he wouldn’t breath, unless it’s just for show, which would be strange. So, my question then would be why does he have lungs if he doesn’t need them or even use them?

When He was on earth He breathed and had lungs I am certain.

Now that He is in Heaven with his glorified body, I am assuming He does not breathe because He does not need to nor is He bound by the laws of this world anymore.

 

[TimothyH]

Just so I’m getting you right. Jesus needs to breath oxygen and eat food to live, or else he’d die?

I said, “I will watch my ways,
lest I sin with my tongue;
I will keep a muzzle on my mouth.”
(Psalm 39:1)

-Tim-

 

[vicwestlad]

TheHolyGhost:

When He was on earth He breathed and had lungs I am certain.

Well obviously.

TheHolyGhost:

Now that He is in Heaven with his glorified body, I am assuming He does not breathe because He does not need to nor is He bound by the laws of this world anymore

Right, but you keep missing the question, or avoiding it (not sure which). If he doesn’t breath, why does he have lungs if he doesn’t need or even use them? Can you please actually answer this question in your next post? Thank you.

 

[vicwestlad]

TimothyH:

I said, “I will watch my ways,
lest I sin with my tongue;
I will keep a muzzle on my mouth.”
(Psalm 39:1)

-Tim-

Impressive apologetics. So, in other words, you won’t answer the question as to whether or not Jesus needs to breath oxygen and drink water to survive even though you’ve already said his physical body is necessary to survive or he’d die. Lol, ok. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[travissbeloved]

Vic, you are a bit insulting and very sarcastic in your comments towards others. I think this thread would be developing a little better for you if you increased your kindness and got that chip off of your shoulder.

 

[TimothyH]

***But the people were silent and answered him not a word, for the king’s command was, “Do not answer him.” *(2 Kings 18:8)

or

Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise;
when he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligent.
(Proverbs 17:28)

-Tim-

 

[vicwestlad]

travissbeloved:

Vic, you are a bit insulting and very sarcastic in your comments towards others. I think this thread would be developing a little better for you if you increased your kindness and got that chip off of your shoulder.

Lol. There’s no chip on any shoulder. Not sure specifically what you’re referring to when you think I should have been “kinder” but perhaps you can fill me in.

Anyway, looking forward to hearing your responses to post #40.

 

[vicwestlad]

***But the people were silent and answered him not a word, for the king’s command was, “Do not answer him.” ***(2 Kings 18:8)

-Tim-

Yes, best not answer questions. After all, it is an apologetics forum.