Jesus' Resurrected Body: Superfluous? Functioning? Facade?

[TheHolyGhost]

Well obviously.

Right, but you keep missing the question, or avoiding it (not sure which). If he doesn’t breath, why does he have lungs if he doesn’t need or even use them? Can you please actually answer this question in your next post? Thank you.

The question you are asking does not have an answer I dont think, because no one has been to Heaven and back to report on it. Who really knows how things work in Heaven? I sure dont, although my guess would be those things (like having a body) will be useful when the New Heaven and the New Earth comes, i.e. the Final Judgement/Resurrection of the dead. My understanding ia that Heaven will be like this earth, minus all of its imperfections; the way the world was meant to be from the beginning like in the Garden of Eden. Remember, it wasnt until Adam and Eve were cast out that pain, death, sickness, necessity of hunting and gathering to survive, etc was introduced.

As a sidenote, I also see use in having a physical body in Heaven; to recognize loved ones and to re-gather with them. Also man was created both with spirit and body. We are not like angels who are pure spirit and not like animals who are pure bodies, we are unique in that sense. Those are the most obvious points that come to mind.

But basically I think the answer is still no, no one needs to breathe in Heaven. Maybe it would be weird to have lungs and not need them. After all, we are talking about Heaven and not earth, where our laws no longer apply.

 

[Aloysium]

According to your colleague, TimothyH just above, that answer has been revealed. Jesus needs a human body to survive. What do you think of TimothyH’s answer?

Since you say the answer has not been revealed, then don’t see how there can be well-developed Church teachings on this. However, if you can direct me to this Church teaching, I’d be appreciative since I’m finding it hard to come by.

Not quite sure what you mean by “concrete” but if he was physical and not a ghost, he wouldn’t be able to walk through walls. And that still doesn’t explain why he would need lungs or any internal organs.

And the point you’re making is…?

Ok, which worldview would allow me to find a solution?

you didn’t get what i was saying
i do not disagree with TimothyH
sorry i cannot be of help

 

[travissbeloved]

yes! lol

 

[vicwestlad]

TheHolyGhost:

The question you are asking does not have an answer I dont think, because no one has been to Heaven and back to report on it.

No, this is just logic. Lungs have a very specific function. They take in oxygen to the heart and, through a specific and complex process, oxygen is distributed to the bloodstream which carries oxygen to cells for the creation of energy (I won’t go into too much detail). If this process is not taking place there is no reason to have lungs. This is just logic, not some mystery that we can’t understand. We know how the human body works, that is if it’s actually human. Right?

TheHolyGhost:

My understanding ia that Heaven will be like this earth, minus all of its imperfections; the way the world was meant to be from the beginning like in the Garden of Eden.

And, what does this have to do with why a god would need a human body or why this god’s body would have lungs? Not sure I follow your point.

 

[vicwestlad]

Can’t deal with the questions, huh (name removed by moderator)? Insults are much more effective than arguments aren’t they? Very impressive.

 

[travissbeloved]

Can’t deal with the questions, huh (name removed by moderator)? Insults are much more effective than arguments aren’t they? Very impressive.

It’s not really an insult. He’s saying you are trolling this site which is either true or not true…also that troll in particular is very adorable, you should be flattered.

 

[travissbeloved]

Lol. There’s no chip on any shoulder. Not sure specifically what you’re referring to when you think I should have been “kinder” but perhaps you can fill me in.

Anyway, looking forward to hearing your responses to post #40.

I will not be answering post #40 because I have come to realize that you are most likely an atheist or an agnostic of some sort and are simply here to argue and berate Catholics and other Christians. No answer that any of us give you is going to be good enough and you don’t hold much of our answers (such as the real presence of the Eucharist) to be true so you wouldn’t understand. You will never accept anything we say even if it’s logical and answers your questions completely. You have a mile high chip on your shoulder thinking that you know what is right and correct and nothing we say is going to change that. So this whole thread has become quite pointless and you my friend would be considered by almost all standards…a troll.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

No, this is just logic. Lungs have a very specific function. They take in oxygen to the heart and, through a specific and complex process, oxygen is distributed to the bloodstream which carries oxygen to cells for the creation of energy (I won’t go into too much detail). If this process is not taking place there is no reason to have lungs. This is just logic, not some mystery that we can’t understand. We know how the human body works, that is if it’s actually human. Right?

And, what does this have to do with why a god would need a human body or why this god’s body would have lungs? Not sure I follow your point.

God humbled Himself and became man and lived among us. Which means he became human and humans have lungs.

After we die, I doubt there will be use for lungs anymore, but since we had them in this life and we will have the same bodies (except glorified) in the next, then it makes sense that all the organs would be there too. It might be weird to have lungs and not need them or stomachs and no need for food, but Heaven isnt the imperfect reality that we live in now so our earthly logic may not apply.

 

[glendab]

Wee Vic,

I personally feel your arrogance dripping off your first response:

Wrong?..as I’ve pointed out, it’s perfectly reasonable to ask what a god would need with a human body. Certainly you haven’t been able to provide any answers.

And either a human body is functioning or it’s a facade? Feel free to argue otherwise, which you’ve thus far failed to do.

So far you’ve just intimated that you think the questions are somehow illegitimate. Often when people cannot think of a good response they just attack the question in lieu of an argument. I assume that’s not the case with you but so far you’re proving otherwise.

If you think my opinion of your insulting attempts to describe what you feel are legitimate questions and not just traps for some to fall into is an attack on your question to avoid having to prove God to you, need I remind you, you ARE at a CATHOLIC Website and most of the people here believe with all their hearts that Jesus is God and not just “a god” you can sneer at. You wouldn’t use the same tactic at a Muslim site, I’m, sure.

The faulty premise is this: it is reasonable to ask what “A GOD” would need with a human body as if A GOD, being a superior being than a mere human would not need one and thusly insisting that those who respond accept your negation of Jesus’ Divine Personhood just to “answer” your question. Right there you help a Christian to fall for trying to “prove” the Incarnation as well as whatever question you started your act with. They have to accept a faulty premise with which to build up from because you seem to want to understand. But you don’t.

No, Vic, since you are as you say a FORMER Catholic, you know very well what we aren’t supposed to say and believe about God and I think you get your jollies by “helping” some say things they shouldn’t in an attempt to change what they fundamentally believe. You are here with a purpose and it isn’t to return to the Church or have an honest discussion with someone about something you’d like to have clarified. But that is just my humble opinion. And like belly buttons, we all have one!

Glenda

 

[vicwestlad]

Aloysium:

you didn’t get what i was saying
i do not disagree with TimothyH

So, then, if you agree with TimothyH, then you think Jesus needs a human body to survive in Heaven? My question, then, would be, How did he survive before he came to earth and got his human body?

Aloysium:

sorry i cannot be of help

I wouldn’t say that.

 

[vicwestlad]

travissbeloved:

I will not be answering post #40

And we both know why. You can sense you’re heading for difficulties if you follow your thoughts to their logical conclusion, which is really all I’m getting you to do.

travissbeloved:

because I have come to realize that you are most likely an atheist or an agnostic of some sort and are simply here to argue and berate Catholics and other Christians.

“Berate”? Wow.

I don’t think you understand something. The word “apologetics” comes from the Greek apologia which means to defend. On the apologetics portion of the forum you defend your faith. Do you think you should only have to defend against soft ball questions? As soon as you get some questions you don’t like you say, “Troll! Troll!” And cover your ears and go, “I’m not going to answer any more of your questions.” Basically, you’re doing a very poor job of defending your faith. Sorry, that’s the truth.

travissbeloved:

No answer that any of us give you is going to be good enough and you don’t hold much of our answers (such as the real presence of the Eucharist) to be true so you wouldn’t understand.

Nonsense. If you have good answers that don’t generate more questions that would be fine. Post #40 that you’re running away from has some good follow up questions. You don’t like them. That’s the real problem.

travissbeloved:

You will never accept anything we say even if it’s logical and answers your questions completely.

Lol

travissbeloved:

You have a mile high chip on your shoulder thinking that you know what is right and correct and nothing we say is going to change that. So this whole thread has become quite pointless and you my friend would be considered by almost all standards…a troll.

Wow, don’t know why you let yourself get so worked up and upset. They’re just questions.

We both know that the questions in #40 are making you uncomfortable because you can’t come up with any good answers. So you attack my character instead. Not my problem if you can’t defend your faith against difficult questions.

 

[vicwestlad]

glendab:

If you think my opinion of your insulting attempts to describe what you feel are legitimate questions and not just traps for some to fall into is an attack on your question to avoid having to prove God to you, need I remind you, you ARE at a CATHOLIC Website and most of the people here believe with all their hearts that Jesus is God and not just “a god” you can sneer at.

Blah blah blah…it’s the “apologetics” part of the forum. It’s where you’re supposed to defend your faith. Why read my posts if you’re just going to get all upset?

glendab:

You wouldn’t use the same tactic at a Muslim site, I’m, sure.

I’ve debated Muslims lots of times. You could actually learn a little confidence and openness about your faith from some of them. Do you think you deserve a medal for just getting upset at me instead of violent?

glendab:

The faulty premise is this: it is reasonable to ask what “A GOD” would need with a human body as if A GOD, being a superior being than a mere human would not need one and thusly insisting that those who respond accept your negation of Jesus’ Divine Personhood just to “answer” your question.

Sorry, I have no idea what you’re trying to say, mostly because this isn’t even grammatical and is pretty much incoherent. I’d be happy to see what my “faulty premise” is if you can restate this for me with, at least close to, proper sentence structure. I mean really try again. I’d like to know.

glendab:

No, Vic, since you are as you say a FORMER Catholic, you know very well what we aren’t supposed to say and believe about God and I think you get your jollies by “helping” some say things they shouldn’t in an attempt to change what they fundamentally believe.

No, you’re just wrong. I think there are some logical problems with Christianity for which I can’t see any reasonable answers. So I come to see if people who are supposedly here to defend their faith can come up with any answers. You just don’t appear to be a very good apologist and apparently this is frustrating you.

glendab:

You are here with a purpose and it isn’t to return to the Church or have an honest discussion with someone about something you’d like to have clarified.

There’s not one dishonest thing I’ve done here. I made my position very clear in the OP. Again, if you can’t take critical inquiry of your faith, you shouldn’t be on the part of the forum that’s designed for defending the faith. That’s just naive.

 

[Aloysium]

Blah blah blah…

I stopped reading. You expect people to respond?

 

[vicwestlad]

Oh good. Back to a non-emotional response…

TheHolyGhost:

After we die, I doubt there will be use for lungs anymore, but since we had them in this life and we will have the same bodies (except glorified) in the next, then it makes sense that all the organs would be there too.

Well not if they’re not needed and provide no function. Here’s a question. Would Jesus have veins in his hands and wrists do you think?

TheHolyGhost:

It might be weird to have lungs and not need them or stomachs and no need for food, but Heaven isnt the imperfect reality that we live in now so our earthly logic may not apply

Yeah, I’d say it’s a bit weird to have lungs just hanging there and a heart that would normally beat and with ventricles that pump the blood but they’re just lying their dormant.

And, really, THG, if Jesus’ heart isn’t even beating and he isn’t even breathing, I’m not sure in what sense you can call him human. Again, the body seems pretty much superfluous as I intimated in the OP, since he’s not really even using it. What do you think about that?

Also, doesn’t the presence of all these organs that serve no purpose and do nothing mean it’s more or less a facade?

Btw…I do appreciate your honesty and the fact that you’re not afraid of answering these questions.

 

[vicwestlad]

I stopped reading. You expect people to respond?

That’s not directed at you but at glendab who offers little more than just an attack on my character every time she posts. It the same thing every time.

 

[Kliska]

That’s why the tomb was empty.

The tomb WAS empty. Do you believe that? If you don’t believe that, isn’t that the more important point?

But I’ve never quite understood this concept. I see two main problems with it: (1) It seems superfluous to me.

What does that mean to God? or me?

(2) It’s either functioning or it’s a facade.

False dilemma.

What can Jesus do with a human body that he can’t do without it?

God the Son is eternal, Jesus is God incarnate. What if Jesus wants His body? Do you know that post-resurrection He came back to eat with His friends? To give a physical, touchable, human body that Thomas could accept, that includes the wounds He received to save you and I. When He is in our plane of existence, He uses that physical body.

If not, then it’s not a human body.

So… when did breathing in and out define what a human body is? You’re making up definitions of your own choosing in order to try to make some type of point or argument.

None, which you mostly seem to agree with since you said the point is physically relating to us which won’t happen till the end of the world.

He already physically related after His resurrection. He will physically relate once more. Do you also realize that this whole saga is for more than just you and me? It’s for the angels themselves who are watching, and learning, and sitting in awe of the Creator of all, and all that He has done for humans.

Do you realize that Jesus’ life, death, resurrection and ascension are fulfillment of the Mosaic Law? Part of the sacrificial system is presenting them to God.

I’m sure you wouldn’t go that far but you seem fairly close. He may, repeat may, want to use it for this or that but certainly isn’t required.

Besides all of the answers provided, you do realize that Truth isn’t hinged on what is required, but on what is?

 

[vicwestlad]

Kliska:

The tomb WAS empty. Do you believe that? If you don’t believe that, isn’t that the more important point?

I wasn’t there so I wouldn’t know if it was empty. An empty tomb is not the point of this thread.

Kliska:

False dilemma.

It’s only a false dilemma if there’s another option. I say either his human body is functioning, as in lungs breathing, heart beating, veins circulating blood, or it’s not. What’s the third option?

Kliska:

Do you know that post-resurrection He came back to eat with His friends? To give a physical, touchable, human body that Thomas could accept, that includes the wounds He received to save you and I.

I’m familiar with the gospels, thank you.

Kliska:

When He is in our plane of existence, He uses that physical body.

Couple of questions, then:

First, not quite sure what you mean by our “plane of existence”. Do you mean the physical universe?

Second, since he uses it when he’s in our “plane of existence”, what does he do with it when it’s not in or “plane of existence”?

Kliska:

So… when did breathing in and out define what a human body is? You’re making up definitions of your own choosing in order to try to make some type of point or argument.

Actually I haven’t given any specific definitions of a human body but any one gave would pretty much have to include functioning lungs, heart, etc. Do you know of any human bodies that don’t require the intake of oxygen and water? I don’t think I’m exactly out on a limb here.

Kliska:

Do you also realize that this whole saga is for more than just you and me? It’s for the angels themselves who are watching, and learning, and sitting in awe of the Creator of all, and all that He has done for humans.

Do you realize that Jesus’ life, death, resurrection and ascension are fulfillment of the Mosaic Law? Part of the sacrificial system is presenting them to God.

I’m familiar with Christian theology thanks.

So tell me, does Jesus breath? What do you think?

 

[Aloysium]

That’s not directed at you . . .

:twocents:

I will give it another try. This is something I’ve come up with, focussing on what I think you might be asking.

The relationship between Heaven and our world is analogous to that between myself sitting at the computer and the extension of myself as a post on this screen.
My sitting here is a higher/more complete/more “concrete” reality than myself as this post.
In a similar way, heaven is more real, more “concrete” than our world.
Jesus leaves the world and returns - I log off and log back on.
I continue to exist but my presence in the forums is gone.
Jesus exists eternally but returns in His resurrected body and ascends into heaven.
Just as I am here made up of letters and punctuation marks signifying meaning and more, Jesus existed on this earth as a human being.
Yes, He had lungs, He had wounds from His crucifixion; He is human.
He returns when I eat His body every week in the sacrament of communion.
One could say that heaven is a higher state of being than this world.
The world of this thread (our earthly world) is too low, too unreal to capture the fullness and reality of daily life (heaven).

So where is heaven in relation to our world.
Just as my computer and screen are in my room with me, it is right here.
I don’t want to go further about this tonight, but it is similar to the way in which sensory apparati and the brain are “within” the mental experience of the moment.

If you want to grasp the transcendent, you have to put aside one dimensional understandings.

This explanation is rather painful because heaven is . . . well . . . heaven; how can I compare it to anything. I really hope it helps you to look at things a bit differently.

 

[Mintaka]

Yes, of course Jesus has (glorified) blood, which is pumped through His (glorified) veins by His (glorified) heart, and which is filled with (glorified) oxygen by His (glorified) lungs.

And yes, breathing glorified oxygen is probably a pleasure and bliss unmatched by any activity that our unglorified bodies can participate in (though of course the greatest bliss would be existing in the presence of God; and through Him, knowing all that we can possibly know). But one of the more fun things will be finding out all the things that lungs and hearts are really meant to do, seeing as they’ve had rather constrained existences so far. Our bodies are fallen now. They will become not like they were in Eden, but like the inhabitants of Eden were supposed to become.

Glorified life will intensely use all our faculties developed in this life, and perfected and turned godlike by God. We will be happy and busy, co-operating with Him in doing wonderful creative things. We were made to have dominion and be God’s image and likeness; how wonderful that will be, to find out what that really means!

The point here is that God really really likes matter. He invented it, and He’s not going to pitch it into the trashbin of eternity. Human bodies are His masterpiece. We slashed the heck out of them in the Garden of Eden, but He was willing to die to repair them and make them what He always meant them to be. He’s not going to ditch them or us as superfluous. He has Big Plans, which we haven’t even been able to dream of.

Judgment and eternal life isn’t the end of the story. It’s the end of the prologue to the real story.

We ain’t seen nothing yet.

PS. Prudentius’ funeral hymn is very good on the importance of reuniting body and soul.

 

[thenobes]

Hi Vic,

I would like to offer you my thoughts on your questions.

One thing that distinguishes Christianity from other ideas of the afterlife is that Jesus didn’t just become a god when he died, like Roman Emperors. He came back to life in the flesh, in a human body, the same one that was lying in the tomb (transformed but still human). That’s why the tomb was empty.

But I’ve never quite understood this concept. I see two main problems with it: (1) It seems superfluous to me. (2) It’s either functioning or it’s a facade.

1. Superfluous

What would a god need with a physical human body? When you pray to Jesus, does he hear you with his human ears? Could he hear you without his human ears? Obviously he could. So why does he need them? When you pray for Jesus to intervene in your life, such as keep your family safe on vacation, does he use his human arms or strength? Obviously not.

It is to remind the Father, in a temporal sense, of the passion He underwent for our sins. As an perpetual offering on our behalf as we repent of sin, for the forgiveness of the Father. Thus not superfluous.

What can Jesus do with a human body that he can’t do without it?

Act as our true intercessor.

1. Functioning or facade?

If Jesus has a physical body then does that mean he breaths? If not, then it’s not a human body. It’s just a shell, a facade. If he breaths, then he has lungs. If he doesn’t have lungs, it’s just a facade. If he has lungs, then does he have all his internal organs. This, to me, seems problematic if taken to it’s logical conclusion.

Thoughts on either, or both?

The existence of a living creature depends on a physical body and spiritual soul, which soul is the organizing principle of the body. In the case of a human, the soul contains the faculties of memory, intellect, and will.

Christ was God who took upon Himself a human nature, ie, human body and soul. This caused an instant glorification, intimate contact with God, of this human nature.

Before His resurrection, He maintained an ordinary human appearance (for the most part). This was due to accepting a life of humiliation in living a perfect life as a man.

After Christ was resurrected, He no longer had to retain the appearance of an unglorified body, that is, he did not have to retain the appearance of one not in intimate contact with God. He is now able to display His full Glory

However, His function is now as an intecessor, the sole mediator between us and God the Father.

I see elsewhere you say that a human body cannot walk through walls. However, I respond that if you realize that the wall is particles separated by each other by a great deal of space, and that your body is the same, then you could see that an instantaeous rearrangement of the particles could allow them to slip by each other; with the result having a body go through a wall.

Of course one would need to know the locations of all the particles and ensure that no particle blocks the position of another passing by it. God being all knowing would have this ability. Thus it may be not that the body had any particular ability to go through a wall but that God rearranged the wall particles so as not to block the body’s particles. Indeed, Go might make nutritional particles assemble as food in the body of the glorified.

Thus Christ’s resurrected body, due to its combination with Christ’s human soul, is alive and is capable of anything any human body is capable of.

But just imagine people who believed Jesus as God before science even knew any of this with regards to particles. Those people had true faith.

I hope this has answered your questions.

peace
steve