Jesus saves

[PNEUMA]

And this is one reason I left protestant and became Catholic. I would much rather enter the Kingdom of God through the tradesman’s entrance, rather than entering through the protestant VIP red-carpet entrance.

I do agree with Ephesians 2:4, just not what you have used it for and especially not that you imply that you are a majestic Captain in a high office.

OP question. Not sound-bites.

I don’t know if protestants know anything about this ? They are not in Apostolic succession

2 Timothy 2:12 “if we endure, we shall also reign with him”

Revelation 3:21 “He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne”

The entrance to the Kingdom of God (co rule with God) is very narrow.

 

[Good_Fella]

We are justified, saved, by faith, not by works. But is this faith our faith in Jesus or the faith of Jesus, the faith, trust, he had? If our faith saves us, we save ourselves; if the faith of Jesus saves us he is our savior; he accepted the will of the father and underwent his passion and death for our sanctification, he saves us.

Therefore, since* we have been justified by faith***, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5, 1

For all have sinned and do need the glory of God. Being justified by his grace through the redemption, that is of Jesus Christ, whom God has proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins.
Romans 3, 23-25

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. For he that is dead is justified from sin.
Romans 6, 6-7

When St. Paul uses the word “justification”, he is focussing on one aspect of how God has offered us the gift of salvation: the forgiveness of sin and the removal of guilt. So when he says in the present perfect tense we “have been justified”, he means that God has forgiven us our sins and removed our guilt through Christ’s atoning death on the cross, by which he restored the equality of justice between God and the human race. Meanwhile, our faith justifies us as long as we continue to live it. Salvation is conditional upon how well we cooperate with God’s gift of grace in our pilgrimage of faith and baptismal commitment. Now that we have received the initial grace of forgiveness and justification by no preceding merit of ours and have been reconciled to God by Christ’s merits, we are called to die to sin and refuse to let it reign over us through God’s healing grace. We are expected to subdue our sinful inclinations and selfish desires and lead a life of charity in grace so as to be holy and just before God. As long as we are personally dead to sin just as our Lord had died to sin (Rom 6: 10-11), we are justified. “For a dead person has been absolved from sin” (Rom 6:7). Love of God and neighbour covers a multitude of sins, which requires that we first die to self and make spiritual sacrifices to God in charity and grace against our selfish inclinations and pride. Faith isn’t merely an intellectual assent and affirmation of what Christ gained for us by his merits.

Since the apostle speaks of our justification in the progressive present tense as well, he obviously never viewed it as simply a once and for all past event. He believed justification also included a daily rendering of obedience to the will of God that sanctified the soul. So as long as we are in this sanctified state, we are justified in God’s sight. We are “being justified” as we grow in holiness and strive to conform our lives to the righteousness of Christ in his humanity so as to be worthy of salvation. And so justification – forgiveness of sin and the removal of guilt – is the reason for our salvation, while sanctification – intrinsic righteousness – is the condition for it. These two states must not be dichotomized in the application of our redemption. Justification and sanctification (regeneration) relate to each other symbiotically in their common objective: the salvation of the human soul. For this reason, the two terms are used interchangeably in Scripture. (See Heb 13, 12 and Rom 5:9). Sanctification is the formal cause of justification. Justification and regeneration go hand in hand. Unless we are regenerated, we don’t personally stand just before God and are deprived of the fruits of Christ’s redemption on our behalf.

Hence, the full application of our redemption is comprised of three key components: justification, sanctification, and the forgiveness of sin. Justification is the process by which the sinner is made right with God through the remission of guilt; sanctification is the simultaneous process by which a person is actually made holy and righteous through the infused interior gifts of the Holy Spirit that enables the soul to be pleasing and just in God’s sight. It involves growing in grace and progressively conforming to the divine image through daily renewal, so that one remains right with God in His grace (Cf. 2 Cor 3, 18, etc.). Justification is progressive. Forgiveness is the pardoning of sin. The sins that are forgiven are totally blotted out of the soul, thereby restoring it to a sanctified state which pleases God. These sins are not merely covertly concealed by Christ’s merits. God doesn’t look only at his Son’s personal righteousness while denying ours. He takes into account a genuine conversion of the heart and a sincere act of contrition prompted by His actual grace that do in fact render us just because of our willingness to be transformed in God’s likeness. Our justification isn’t “synthetic”. The forgiveness of sin, notably our personal sins, involves the soul’s restoration to the state of holiness and thereby reconciliation with God. We are born spiritually dead, viz., in original sin, which is the deprivation of justice and sanctity. By nature, we all are in need of God’s glory which only the infusion of divine grace can help restore as it efficaciously transforms us in the Divine image in our course towards spiritual perfection.

:heaven:

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

We are justified, saved, by faith, not by works. But is this faith our faith in Jesus or the faith of Jesus, the faith, trust, he had? If our faith saves us, we save ourselves; if the faith of Jesus saves us he is our savior; he accepted the will of the father and underwent his passion and death for our sanctification, he saves us.

Sorry for going on about this issue, but I am concerned I think the issue is important.

John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but should have everlasting life.

It does not say that Jesus saves those who Jesus believes in. No. It says that Jesus saves those who believe in Him.

 

[NoelFitz]

TDB
Thanks for a brilliant concise answer.
It is a model for answering queries in CAF.
In a few words you get to the heart of the matter and resolve the issue in simple clear unambiguous words.

 

[NoelFitz]

Good Fella
Sorry, but I could not understand your reply.
You wrote:
When St. Paul uses the word “justification”, he is focussing on one aspect of how God has offered us the gift of salvation: the forgiveness of sin and the removal of guilt. So when he says in the present perfect tense we “have been justified”, he means that God has forgiven us our sins and removed our guilt through Christ’s atoning death on the cross, by which he restored the equality of justice between God and the human race.

You say Paul uses the present perfect tense. I never heart of this. In fact he uses the aorist
passive participle.

I could not find the translation you used.

 

[Good_Fella]

Good Fella
You say Paul uses the present perfect tense. I never heart of this. In fact he uses the aorist
passive participle.

I could not find the translation you used.

The New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE). Other versions of Romans 5:1 have “having been justified”, “being justified”, and “you are justified”. I’m referring to the English translation I provided at the top of my post, not the original Greek text. In the translation, we have the present perfect tense. Many linguists maintain that the aorist tends to be about the past because it is perfective, and perfectives tend to describe completed actions; others that it is essentially a mixture of past tense and perfective aspect. Christ’s death on the cross is a completed past action whose effect (the formal redemption of mankind) goes on. Many Protestants mistakenly view Romans 5:1 to mean that their justification has been completed and, therefore, their salvation is personally assured because of the faith they have put in Jesus by accepting him as their personal Lord and Saviour. Now that they have been elected (limited atonement), they can never lose their salvation (perseverance of the saints). However, the crucifixion is temporal in aspect, while the formal redemption of the world is an ever-present state brought about by Christ’s redemptive work.

Here are a couple of scriptural comparisons between the perfect and aorist aspects of verbs to better distinguish them:

**Past **

By grace you have been saved."
*Ephesians 2:5 *

Christ’s formal redemption of the world continues on.

"After that you believed (Aorist), you were sealed (aor.) with the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1, 13

The believing and sealing are definite and complete acts confined to the present moment. Some of the Ephesians who believed, however, may eventually have lost their faith. St. Paul is referring to their predestination to grace rather than glory.

The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing in full effect. The progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect tense, which indicates a completed past action that affects the present, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state (redemption of the world) of a completed past action (Christ’s death on the cross).

Faith is more than a thought process and a verbal profession. More importantly, faith is action. Protestants contend that our works, not even works done in grace and charity, are necessary for our salvation. Nothing we do in our lowliness (“having fallen short of the glory of God”) can merit an eternal reward. Still, we are expected to die to this world and lead holy lives. But our acts of charity in grace merely serve to demonstrate that we have truly put our faith in Christ, which alone saves. By believing what Christ has done for us, his merits are then credited to our account. Many Protestants rationalize that Christians who eventually abandon their faith never had it to begin with. The problem here is that God makes phony entries in the book of life. We are justified and saved by the imputation of Christ’s alien righteousness to us. Catholics regard this forensic justification to be a legal fiction. I’m afraid our salvation is conditional, as opposed to “unconditional”. Good works done in grace complete our justification. They don’t merely demonstrate that we have faith and are saved by it.

*Now this is the message that we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.*If we say, “We have fellowship with him,” while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth.But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
1 John 1, 5-7

The light that shines in us is the light of God, and it’s real. It reflects the quality of our souls infused with sanctifying grace. How we act determines the condition of our souls. When God shall judge us, he will look at the state of our souls. He will take what inherently belongs to us into account. We shall be judged by our deeds, not our faith. The blood of Jesus will not benefit us if we don’t live in fellowship with each other despite how much faith we have put in it. We do “act in truth” because of our faith in God and His Christ, but the faith that we place in Him is just the starting point of our pilgrimage on earth. James tells us: “Be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves” (James 1,22). “So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead” (James 2:17). Apparently, there were Christians who had actually put their faith in Jesus, but weren’t living their faith. James doesn’t see it as not having any faith at all to begin with. Faith is there, but it’s a dead and useless faith. It’s like a body that remains after the soul has left it. “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead” (James 2:26).

What Paul means by works is works of the Mosaic Law (ceremonial and moral) done outside the system of charity and grace. We can never make God indebted to us just by following his rules for their own sake. The good Samaritan shall be saved, not the Pharisee who observes the letter of the law, but lacks charity in God’s grace and a humble repentant faith ( Luke 10:25-37; 18:9-14).

:heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but should have everlasting life.

It does not say that Jesus saves those who Jesus believes in. No. It says that Jesus saves those who believe in Him.

Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. ******
James 2,19

Even the demons believe that there is one God, and Jesus is Lord, but they aren’t saved. Demons tremble at the thought of God, but their fear doesn’t save them from hell. Peter teaches that all who fear the Lord and do what is right is acceptable to him (Acts 10:35). True, we can’t ever place God in our debt for our good works, since we rely on His grace to merit our eternal reward. Still, faith isn’t enough to be saved. Good works done in grace are also required of us if we hope to be saved. Faith needs works to effect our justification gained for us by the merits of Christ. Initially faith justifies, but works done in charity and grace complete our justification. I suppose we can say that Jesus saves those who are acceptable to him by believing in him (observing his teachings and commandments), but not because they believe in him. An intellectual assent of faith is insufficient for our salvation.

Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
John 14, 23

:heaven:

 

[James248]

Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. ******
James 2,19

Even the demons believe that there is one God, and Jesus is Lord, but they aren’t saved. Demons tremble at the thought of God, but their fear doesn’t save them from hell. Peter teaches that all who fear the Lord and do what is right is acceptable to him (Acts 10:35). True, we can’t ever place God in our debt for our good works, since we rely on His grace to merit our eternal reward. Still, faith isn’t enough to be saved. Good works done in grace are also required of us if we hope to be saved. Faith needs works to effect our justification gained for us by the merits of Christ. Initially faith justifies, but works done in charity and grace complete our justification. I suppose we can say that Jesus saves those who are acceptable to him by believing in him (observing his teachings and commandments), but not because they believe in him. An intellectual assent of faith is insufficient for our salvation.

Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
John 14, 23

:heaven:

So are you trying to take away from what Jesus said in John 3:16?

 

[fhansen]

So are you trying to take away from what Jesus said in John 3:16?

Actually John said it. And there’s no reason to believe that it amounts to an exhaustive accounting of everything one must do in order to be saved. Faith and the knowledge that accompanies it brings with it new accountability and obligation.

 

[James248]

Actually John said it. And there’s no reason to believe that it amounts to an exhaustive accounting of everything one must do in order to be saved. Faith and the knowledge that accompanies it brings with it new accountability and obligation.

Jesus said it, NOT John.

So I ask you, are you trying to take away from what Jesus said in John 3:16?

 

[Bookcat]

Actually John said it.

Jesus said it, NOT John.

As to if the verse is from Jesus or John - there are arguments on both sides.

Yes one can say that John said it.

Or one could argue that the quote of Jesus continues onward through the next few verses.

The RSV CE though does *end *the quote from Jesus at 15 and then notes that some argue it continues.

In any case one can simply say “Sacred Scripture says” or even “St. John wrote” as Pope Benedict XVI did.

 

[fhansen]

Jesus said it, NOT John.

So I ask you, are you trying to take away from what Jesus said in John 3:16?

No. But regardless of who said it, since it would be inspired either way, would you base your entire theology on one quote? Or would you consider it wise to consult other Scriptural directives concerning salvation as well? Or better yet, the Catechism?

 

[Good_Fella]

So are you trying to take away from what Jesus said in John 3:16?

Not at all. Neither is James. Jesus isn’t saying that we are saved by faith alone. Nor does the Catholic Church teach that. Believing that Jesus is the Son of God and accepting him as our saviour isn’t enough to be saved. It’s a question of defining what Jesus means by belief in him and understanding how it is that faith saves. Our belief in Jesus requires a total trust and a total giving of oneself to the message that our Lord proclaimed: Love of God and love of neighbour. Our deeds and actions arise from our beliefs. If we trust God (made visible in Jesus) and believe in his goodness and love with all our hearts, our trust and love should translate into good works. It isn’t merely belief in who Jesus is, but rather belief in his gospel message and living it that saves. Of course, like I said, our good deeds and actions may arise from our belief in who Jesus is. But an intellectual assent of faith by itself doesn’t save. Jesus himself says: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt 7:21). By doing the will of the Father, we are doing what the Son has proclaimed we should do. Jesus came to reveal all that God wills for us in his person. His message serves to inspire us to do good works in grace which reflect our fidelity to Christ. If we are truly faithful to him, by sincerely observing his teachings and commandments, then we can honestly say that we believe in him. Because by obeying him, we love him. How can we believe in someone if we don’t love him? To believe in Jesus is to love him, and to love him (God incarnate) is to keep his commandments. “If any one say, I love God, and hate his brother, he is a liar” (1 Jn 4:20). In other words, he doesn’t truly believe in God as he should.

---

Catechism of the Catholic Church (849)

“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.”***

Without a moral conscience, we couldn’t have a relationship with God. If we had never been told about the Mosaic moral law or the Gospel message, we would still have an idea of what is right and what is wrong with respect to how we conducted our lives and how we treated other people. This is what is known as the “natural law written on our hearts.” It is the law God has given each person, and it is found in the depths of their being (soul). It’s this law that Jesus admonished the Pharisees for ignoring in their interpretation and practice of the Mosaic law. The Second Vatican Council explains it this way, “In the depths of his conscience man detects a law which he does not impose on himself, but which holds him to obedience. Always summoning him to love good and avoid evil, the voice of conscience can when necessary speak to his heart more specifically: ‘do this, shun that’. For man has in his heart a law written by God. To obey it is the very dignity of man; according to it he will be judged (cf. Rom 2:14-16)” (Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World Gaudium et Spes, 16).God became incarnate to proclaim this law which embodies the Gospel message and is the spirit of the Mosaic moral law. Jesus is addressing the Jews in John’s gospel who failed to live up to the spirit of the law. Because of the hypocrisy of the scribes and elders, they were like “sheep without a shepherd”.

***Decree Concerning Justification (The Council of Trent)

CHAPTER VIII
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, [Rom. 3:24; 5:1] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God [Heb. 11:6] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.

CHAPTER X
THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED

Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[Eph 2:19] advancing from virtue to virtue,[Ps 83:8] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[2 Cor. 4:16] that is, mortifying the members [Col. 3:5] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, [Rom. 6:13, 19] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written: He that is just, let him be justified still; [Apoc. 22:11] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; [Ecclus. 18:22] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[James 2:24]***

:heaven:

 

[Bookcat]

Jesus isn’t saying that we are saved by faith alone.

As to if the verse is from Jesus or John - there are arguments on both sides.

Yes one can say that they are the words of John there.

Or one could yes argue that the quote of Jesus continues onward through the next few verses.

The RSV CE though does *end *the quote from Jesus at 15 and then notes that some argue it continues. So that it would be the inspired words of John not a quote from Jesus.

In any case one can simply say “Sacred Scripture says” or even “St. John wrote” as Pope Benedict XVI did.

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism

150 Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c3a1.htm#150

“At this point I would like to sketch a path intended to help us understand more profoundly not only the content of the faith, but also the act by which we choose to entrust ourselves fully to God, in complete freedom. In fact, there exists a profound unity between the act by which we believe and the content to which we give our assent. Saint Paul helps us to enter into this reality when he writes: “Man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved” (Rom 10:10). The heart indicates that the first act by which one comes to faith is God’s gift and the action of grace which acts and transforms the person deep within.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI PORTA FIDEI w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en.html

“Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI Deus Caritas Est

“Faith opens us to knowing and welcoming the real identity of Jesus, his newness and oneness, his word, as a source of life, in order to live a personal relationship with him. Knowledge of the faith grows, it grows with the desire to find the way and in the end it is a gift of God who does not reveal himself to us as an abstract thing without a face or a name, because faith responds to a Person who wants to enter into a relationship of deep love with us and to involve our whole life.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI (Sunday, 14 August 2011)

 

[Bookcat]

understanding how it is that faith saves.

Pope Benedict XVI on the subjects of Faith and Works in St. Paul

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (scroll down)

Plus earlier one:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

 

[Good_Fella]

As to if the verse is from Jesus or John - there are arguments on both sides.

Yes one can say that they are the words of John there.

Or one could yes argue that the quote of Jesus continues onward through the next few verses.

The RSV CE though does *end *the quote from Jesus at 15 and then notes that some argue it continues. So that it would be the inspired words of John not a quote from Jesus.

In any case one can simply say “Sacred Scripture says” or even “St. John wrote” as Pope Benedict XVI did.

John wrote the gospel, but Jesus does say in 11:26, " And every one that liveth, and believeth in me, shall not die for ever." The Evangelist must have had Jesus’ words in mind in 3:16.

:heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

John wrote the gospel, but Jesus does say in 11:26, " And every one that liveth, and believeth in me, shall not die for ever." The Evangelist must have had Jesus’ words in mind in 3:16.

I should add that the real author of the gospel, as with all the Scriptures, is God. The men who wrote the sacred texts were co-authors, so to speak, but in the sense that they were inspired to instrumentally write down what originated from God. It was the Holy Spirit speaking to us through them. Their task was to write down all that they heard the Spirit declare to them. And what the Spirit did declare, He received from the Son, the living Word of God. “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come” (John 16:12-13). So it’s irrelevant whether John quoted and recorded Jesus’ actual words which he spoke while he was still with his disciples.

:heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

I should add that the real author of the gospel, as with all the Scriptures, is God. The men who wrote the sacred texts were co-authors, so to speak, but in the sense that they were inspired to instrumentally write down what originated from God. It was the Holy Spirit speaking to us through them. Their task was to write down all that they heard the Spirit declare to them. And what the Spirit did declare, He received from the Son, the living Word of God. “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come” (John 16:12-13). So it’s irrelevant whether John quoted and recorded Jesus’ actual words which he spoke while he was still with his disciples.

:heaven: