Jesus" siblings

[InThee]

In “Mathew 13 : 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him”

Does this mean Mary gave birth to other children? if yes then it means she didnt remain a virgin to the end. please help me understand this.

 

[SwizzleStick]

In “Mathew 13 : 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him”

Does this mean Mary gave birth to other children? if yes then it means she didnt remain a virgin to the end. please help me understand this.

**Hello InThee! Welcome to CAF!

Your questioning occurs pretty frequently here at CAF, so I did a search for you on “Virgin Mary” in the “Ask an Apologist” (our resident experts) section of the forum and came back with 278 results. I’ve listed a few of the results below. Hopefully, these threads will be helpful to you. If not, here is a link to the list of my entire results for my search “Virgin Mary” in “Ask an Apologist.” forums.catholic-questions.org/search.php?searchid=11843311

If none of that helps clarify entirely, searches using other word combos (Jesus’ siblings, brothers of Jesus, etc.) would yield additional results that will hopefully be helpful in understanding.**

How do we know Mary was a perpetual virgin?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=695681

Why did Mary need to remain a virgin her whole life?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=684686

Who is/are the mother and brothers of Jesus?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=672210

Doesn’t Scripture imply that Mary had children other than Jesus?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=71284

Did Jesus have brothers?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=14965

Perpetual Virginity: Why is this important?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=22071

What does the Church teach about Mary’s Perpetual Virginity?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=658796

What is the Church teaching on Mary ever virgin?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=644595

Did Jesus have brothers?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=638211

How did the Church come up with the doctrine of the “ever virginity” of Mary.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=625992

Did Jesus have siblings?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=610742

Did Jesus have brothers?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=600483

Was Mary an eternal virgin?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=569394

Didn’t Mary, the mother of Jesus, have other children after Jesus was born?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=569297

Too, here are links to a couple of articles that you might find helpful.

Mary: Ever Virgin
catholic.com/tracts/mary-ever-virgin

Immaculate Conception and Assumption
catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption

 

[Publisher]

What I find interesting in these passages concerning Jesus’ siblings…they speak about Joseph as his father…they speak of Mary as his mother…but when they speak of his “brothers” and “sisters”…they no longer are addressing his immediate family but now an extended family of cousins or other children of Joseph by a previous marriage…yet there’s no hint of the relationship change in the passage to indicate we’re no longer discussing his immediate family.

 

[PaddyMac]

The earliest explanation of whom Jesus’ brothers are is recorded in the Protoevangelium of St. James ( newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm ). Essentially is explains that Jospeh was an older man and a widower when he betrothed Mary. Thus Jesus’ brothers, according to this early testimony, are actually half-brothers - sons of Joseph from his previous marriage. It is also true that among the Hebrew people, the term “brothers” is a broad term which includes various types of relatives. Thus a later theory, which I believe was first posited by St. Jerome, is that Jesus’ brothers are actually cousins. In either case, the brothers are indeed relatives, but the Church has always been clear that Mary was a lifelong virgin and never gave birth physical birth to any children other than Jesus.

Some Protestants will cite the following verse contradicting Mary’s special role: Luke 8:19-21 “And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd. And it was reported to Him, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You.” But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.””

However, we find the reply in Revelation 12:1,17: “A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth…So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” Mary indeed has other children: those “who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.”

 

[AtThyRefuge]

You might want to check the notes for Mark 16 (if I recalled correctly) in the Christian Community Bible, I find the explanation quite sound. Mine is in Chinese so it might not help very much, and please excuse me that I don’t believe I would be able to translate the text into English. Pretty much it was like, those people are Iesus’ cousins, whom in Jewish tridition are also called brothers.

 

[TimothyH]

What I find interesting in these passages concerning Jesus’ siblings…they speak about Joseph as his father…they speak of Mary as his mother…but when they speak of his “brothers” and “sisters”…they no longer are addressing his immediate family but now an extended family of cousins or other children of Joseph by a previous marriage…yet there’s no hint of the relationship change in the passage to indicate we’re no longer discussing his immediate family.

The confusion arises from the fact that in Hebrew and Aramaic there was no word for cousin. Everyone was “Kin” or “Brother”

Read the tract at the link provided by Deacon (name removed by moderator) in post number 2.

Also have a look at the tract “Brethren of the Lord”.

***When trying to understand these verses, note that the term “brother” (Greek: adelphos) has a wide meaning in the Bible. It is not restricted to the literal meaning of a full brother or half-brother. The same goes for “sister” (adelphe) and the plural form “brothers” (adelphoi). The Old Testament shows that “brother” had a wide semantic range of meaning and could refer to any male relative from whom you are not descended (male relatives from whom you are descended are known as “fathers”) and who are not descended from you (your male descendants, regardless of the number of generations removed, are your “sons”), as well as kinsmen such as cousins, those who are members of the family by marriage or by law rather than by blood, and even friends or mere political allies (2 Sam. 1:26; Amos 1:9). ***

-Tim-

 

[Ad_Infinitum]

What they meant in that Gospel is for only because they were following Jesus but not because they were also sons of Mary which they were not.

 

[sedonaman]

Jesus was not part of a litter.

 

[ahs]

What I find interesting in these passages concerning Jesus’ siblings…they speak about Joseph as his father…they speak of Mary as his mother…but when they speak of his “brothers” and “sisters”…they no longer are addressing his immediate family but now an extended family of cousins or other children of Joseph by a previous marriage…yet there’s no hint of the relationship change in the passage to indicate we’re no longer discussing his immediate family.

Plenty of explanation above. But one thing to point out…we know Mary is His biological mother, and that Joseph is NOT His biological father. Why then must we need evidence to suggest a “relationship change in the passage to indicate we’re no longer discussing his immediate family.”? It is jsut as easy, without exploring any further, to assume they could have been speaking of Joseph’s biological family, which would not necessarily be Jesus’ biological family.

 

[TimothyH]

Jesus was concieved in Mary by the Holy Spirit. This is why Mary is called the Spouse of the Holy Sprit. For Mary to then have had children by another spouse would make her an adulterer.

That would make the redeemer of all creation the illegitimate son of an adulterous woman.

To put it bluntly, the Second Person of the Trinity could not enter time and creation to redeem mankind as the bastard son of a harlot.

The very idea makes me cringe. It is preposterous. It makes me feel dirty and want to go to confession for even typing the words.

-Tim-

 

[sedonaman]

Jesus was concieved in Mary by the Holy Spirit. This is why Mary is called the Spouse of the Holy Sprit. For Mary to then have had children by another spouse would make her an adulterer.

That would make the redeemer of all creation the illegitimate son of an adulterous woman.

To put it bluntly, the Second Person of the Trinity could not enter time and creation to redeem mankind as the bastard son of a harlot.

The very idea makes me cringe. It is preposterous. It makes me feel dirty and want to go to confession for even typing the words.

-Tim-

Perhaps Chapters 3 - 6 will help catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/rationes.htm .

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Did one of the writers included in the canon write anything about Joseph having another wife and children before Mary? Or Joseph having siblings?
If so, where is that part, please and thanks.

Or, I guess, mary could have had siblings who had children?

It is curious, adding to what Publisher says, that Joseph’s entire line of ancestry on one side are listed one by one at one point (I think? that “begat” page…) for dozens of generations…and yet, no one mentions another wife or if he had siblings?

But if someone does mention it, I’ve missed it…please if someone could tell me which lines. Thank you!

While not in the canon of Scripture, the Protoevangelium is a source. Naturally it is not an infallible teaching, but that does not mean that what it says is not correct. Sacred Tradition records the possibility of the ‘brothers’ being children of St Joseph by an earlier marriage, but not the certainty.

However neither the canon of Scripture, Sacred Tradition, nor the Magesterium of the Church record that MARY had any children other than Jesus. You will not find in the Scripture that Mary, wife of Joseph, and mother of Jesus, is stated to have had ANY OTHER CHILDREN WHATSOEVER. Even the so-called ‘Joseph knew her not UNTIL she gave birth to Jesus’ does NOT categorically state that ‘after’ the birth Joseph MUST have had sex with Mary. **Or else when Jesus comes again and He will rule UNTIL ALL HIS ENEMIES ARE CONQUERED means that once He beats everyone, Jesus stops ruling. --BTW, that passage is a paraphrase but it is actually FROM Scripture, so it is germane to the question. IF there is ANY passage in Scripture in which the adverb ‘until’ states a condition and does not imply a REVERSAL of that condition (and that passage I above certainly meets that criteria), then the statement about Joseph and Mary is proven NOT to necessary indicate a ‘reversal’ of the condition; thus, the passage does not support the idea that Mary had other children.

 

[brumano]

In “Mathew 13 : 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him”

Does this mean Mary gave birth to other children? if yes then it means she didnt remain a virgin to the end. please help me understand this.

What I always wonder about this question is who said it, in this public way and why did he say it, 57 shows that it had the desired effect. We have to remember that a question does’nt establish a fact. This to me is one of the amazing things about Catholicism the average person could easily make a wrong conclusion from a Scripture passage but The Church establishes the Truth based on all Scripture, Sacred Doctrine and ongoing Revellation, about pre-existing Truth. There is the possibility that They were his step brothers and sisters by a previous marriage of St. Joseph’s but that’s doubtful, there is no doubt that mary is Ever Virgin, none.

 

[Actaeon]

In “Mathew 13 : 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him”

Does this mean Mary gave birth to other children? if yes then it means she didnt remain a virgin to the end. please help me understand this.

I think it’s as simple as looking at the names of the “brothers” in question and making note of one thing:

James, Simon, and Judas were all names of Jesus’ disciples. We don’t know Joseph as an apostle in this story, but we can surmise from the fact that the other three are disciples (and not brothers) that there is no reason to suspect that Joseph was a genetic “brother” any more so than the other three referenced with him.

Case closed, problem solved. This verse says nothing about Jesus having genetic brothers.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And there’s this, too:

Galatians 1:18-19

18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas[a] and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.

Yes, but we know that two of the apostles were named James.

One was James, the brother of John. They were the sons of Zebedee (not Joseph) --so obviously this James was not the brother of Jesus, correct?

The other is James, the son of ALPHAEUS. Again, not Joseph. . .so obviously THIS James is not the brother of Jesus, correct?

Those are the only two 'James the apostles" in Scripture who served with Cephas (Peter). . .and neither of them is a brother of Jesus through Joseph or Mary.

So obviously ‘brother’ does not mean uterine brother (son of Mary) or step-brother (son of Joseph).

St Paul likewise goes on to speak in one of his epistles as addressing “the brothers --120 of them”. Wow, that would put Mary and Joseph in the Guinness Book of Records if they were ‘blood’ brothers. . .

Now I’m no language scholar but I am aware that, for example, Greek as it is spoken today is not the same Greek that was spoken in AD 33. A word that exists in the Greek of 2012 AD might not have existed in 212 AD. So the fact that a word might exist in a quick on-line search of a Greek dictionary doesn’t mean that it existed years or centuries ago. And the Aramaic as spoken by the Jews was apparently even more different than the Aramaic spoken by other groups around them in the time of Christ–and of course later, and currently modern, Aramaic is more different still, ,

 

[PaddyMac]

Matthew 27:55-56 “Many women were there looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee while ministering to Him. Among them was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.”

Mark 15:40 “There were also some women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses, and Salome.”

Luke 23:49 “And all His acquaintances and the women who accompanied Him from Galilee were standing at a distance, seeing these things.”

John 19:25 “But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.”

We see from these passages that James and Joses, who are called “the brothers of the Lord” are in fact sons of a different Mary, the wife of Clopas. She is also referred to as “[Jesus’] mother’s sister.” She also was probably not Mary’s sister as we would understand “sister” but probably some other relative because, as far as I know, Mary the mother of Jesus was also an only child. It can be confusing both because of the different use of terminology (broad meaning of “brothers” and “sisters”) and the fact that Mary was a common name at the time so there were several different women named Mary.

 

[steve53]

Josephus talks about a brother of Jesus. Josephus is not a Christian and would not use the term “brother” in the religious sense.

 

[Porknpie]

Did one of the writers included in the canon write anything about Joseph having another wife and children before Mary? Or Joseph having siblings?
If so, where is that part, please and thanks.

Or, I guess, mary could have had siblings who had children?

It is curious, adding to what Publisher says, that Joseph’s entire line of ancestry on one side are listed one by one at one point (I think? that “begat” page…) for dozens of generations…and yet, no one mentions another wife or if he had siblings?

But if someone does mention it, I’ve missed it…please if someone could tell me which lines. Thank you!

It’s interesting too that Luther and Calvin upheld Mary’s perpetual virginity, Luther saying that Jesus giving Mary to his disciple was proof enough on its own. If he had brothers, Jesus giving Mary to a non-family member would have been against the law and custom. So her perpetual virginity can be understood through scripture and it was believed by the early church and the reformers 1500 years later. I’ve always said, when the Catholic church and the reformers agree on something and you don’t, you have to question the ground in which your house is built on.

 

[TimothyH]

There is no way that Mary had other children.

Mary concieved by the Holy Spirit. For Mary to then have other children by someone else makes her an adulterer, and makes our Lord and Savior the son of an adulterer.

There is no way this could happen. It simply cannot be. It is an impossibility.

-Tim-

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I think that the Mary that was mentioned as Mary’s(the mother of Jesus) sister was in fact her sister in law. That would mean that her two sons–James and Joses-their father was Joseph’s brother.

That would make them cousins of Jesus. Probably their father and Joseph both died so it is possible that they could have at some time lived with Jesus.