Jesus' status in Islam and Judaism

[swariffin]

Dear Ed,

If you study theology as a science rather as a believe, you will find that one of the problem of “Monotheistic” is the tendency of human to think that everything must be from God. The modern example of this is the believe that God created Satan. By saying this, I do not mean that monotheism is bad. Monotheism as opposed to Polytheism is a subject of theological study and reasoning only. It does not mean that all Polytheist are bad and the Monotheist are good, or the vice versa. No way. For example, who do you want to make a friend with? the atheist who respect you and help you so much without any reserve, or a Christian who shouts “Halleluya” and kill the muslims?

The same thing with the old testament, in which you read so many wars done by the Israelites in the name of God. Now, if God proclaims Himself as Just, Loving and Benevolent, why there is a preference of one tribe/nation among others? Does it means that God does not love human other than the Israellite at that time? That is exactly the problem of one taking the holybook as “Genuine Words of Gods, no question about it, complete submission to it, must be followed without thinking” and take the meaning LITERALLY. That is the difference of us the Christian reading the bible as opposed to the Muslims reading their Quran. We, read the OT as God inspiring the writer who wrote that, of how did God bless their ancestors. The words is free for the writers to compose. But, we do take the meaning based on the circumstances surrounding the writers. You should know also that history said that the Genesis (the first book of the bible) was written after the Israellite were return from Babylon.

On the other hand, the typical Muslims (not the objective scholars) view the Quran as direct words from God and dictated to Muhammad. So, one must not question it, and must follow whatever is stated there. It is no wonder that most muslims read the Quran and take it literally, no matter how strange the wordings as opposed to the modern lifestyle. Given any inconsistency (such as Quran claims that Mary as the sister of Aaron, while their existence in time differs for hundreds of years), there could be no explanation from them. If you don’t believe me, you can go ahead and open a new thread about this.

If you claim that Christianity has defeated Rome the conquerer? Please find out how. Peter was crucified up side down there, and Rome was burnt by Nero who blamed the Christian for that, just to maintain his power. Is there any Christian force ever fight the emperor of Rome? Take a look of yourself objectively. Is there ANY CHRISTIAN country in this world which formally take the bible as their constitution? Don’t think about Vatican. It is not a real country by itself. I need the Italian visa to get there.

You see that Islam existed to stop the invasion of Christian. Now, let me ask you several questions. (a) Where did Islam founded? (b) Did the place where Islam was founded, under threat from any Christian force? (c) The first day Islam was founded, who they struggled against? The Christians?. Islam was founded on the 600AD, at the time where the influence of the Vatican was not as great as today. At that time, most of the theologists, were from Alexandria and Antioch, not from Vatican. Islam was founded in the land of Arabia, which geographically far away from the mediteranian sea where most of Christianity stayed. At 600AD, no oil consuming engines were invented yet, so not much crude oil was needed for any reason to conquer the land of Arabia. The first day or year that Muhammad struggle was against his fellow Arabians, not against Christianity. So, it is ridicolous to claim that Islam was establish to block the advancing force of Christianity.

Basically, Ed, we the Christian read our bible based on the spirit of understanding that God is loving, benevolent and just. Therefore, we always go between the line to read the mind of the writers of how they ever get to whatever they wrote. We are so critical to our own bible, not to take the whole wordings of the bible LITERALLY. You should see also, that no matter how the Muslims claims that Quran is a Direct dictations of God’s word through Muhammad, there are still denominations of Islam, such as the Sunni and the Shiah, or the Ahmadians later on. Logically, how can God’s direct word can have different meanings? The lawyer can do much better writing down the documents.

 

[Ed_Rand]

You are confusing apples with pears. In the Old Testament God never says that Jews are to conduct Genocide on ALL non-Jewish tribes on the basis of religious differences. Thus, the commandment in the OT to wipe out a certain tribe living at a certain period in history cannot be presented as something equal to the Koran verses commanding Muslims to fight ALL non-Muslims and humiliate them until the day of judgment because of their not embracing Islam.

Besides the particular tribes that the Israelites were commanded to dedicate to God, they ancient Jews were given the DEFENSIVE command “eye for an eye” which the Qur’an also commands to Muslims. Also, I believe you are misrepresenting Islam. The Qur’an makes it possible for Muslims to leave in peace with “people of the Book”.

“Besides, you claim that Jesus’ victory was only a POLITICAL one”
I would never say that cause I don’t believe that. It was political, spiritual, social, personal. The effects of his life on greco-roman society are unquantifiable and are still working on our culture. Don’t put words in my mouth please.

 

[inJESUS]

who gave Muhammad the authority to teach anything in the first place, before we discuss his breaking Jesus’ covenant?

 

[Ed_Rand]

If you study theology as a science rather as a believe, you will find that one of the problem of “Monotheistic” is the tendency of human to think that everything must be from God

.–I don’t see this as a problem.

The same thing with the old testament, in which you read so many wars done by the Israelites in the name of God. Now, if God proclaims Himself as Just, Loving and Benevolent, why there is a preference of one tribe/nation among others? Does it means that God does not love human other than the Israellite at that time?

Certainly God did not love the practices of those who occupied Canaan before the Israelites (the practiced child sacrifice, ritual prostitution, etc.) God preferred the Israelites because they brought his message and his blessing to all mankind.

You should know also that history said that the Genesis (the first book of the bible) was written after the Israellite were return from Babylon.

The bible has several mentions of things being written down before the return. The Jews made a serious attempt to gather the writings and edit them into one story after the return. The are places in the OT where it is said that Moses had things written down. Also, these stories had been passed down for generations by mouth.

If you claim that Christianity has defeated Rome the conquerer? Please find out how. Peter was crucified up side down there, and Rome was burnt by Nero who blamed the Christian for that, just to maintain his power. Is there any Christian force ever fight the emperor of Rome? Take a look of yourself objectively. Is there ANY CHRISTIAN country in this world which formally take the bible as their constitution? Don’t think about Vatican. It is not a real country by itself. I need the Italian visa to get there.

You say that Islam existed to stop the invasion of Christian. Now, let me ask you several questions. (a) Where did Islam founded? (b) Did the place where Islam was founded, under threat from any Christian force? (c) The first day Islam was founded, who they struggled against? The Christians?. Islam was founded on the 600AD, at the time where the influence of the Vatican was not as great as today. At that time, most of the theologists, were from Alexandria and Antioch, not from Vatican. Islam was founded in the land of Arabia, which geographically far away from the mediteranian sea where most of Christianity stayed. At 600AD, no oil consuming engines were invented yet, so not much crude oil was needed for any reason to conquer the land of Arabia. The first day or year that Muhammad struggle was against his fellow Arabians, not against Christianity. So, it is ridicolous to claim that Islam was establish to block the advancing force of Christianity.

–God’s plans take thousands of years to develop, and are continually being worked out. God commanded the ancient Jews to conquer Canaan because a few millenia later, he wanted Rome to confront Jesus there. Would the pagans who inhabited Canaan before have had any effect on the Roman culture? No, they would have assimilated for fear of death because only monotheistic religions will produce convictions that are strengthened through outside attack. A polytheistic nation which suffers defeat must acknowledge that their Gods are weaker than those of their conquerors. A monotheistic nation which suffers defeat must ask their God why he would bring about this calamity. What would the Middle East look like today without the convictions of Muslims? The Qur’an has been the greatest barrier to Western imperialism. Today, the most powerful men in the world claim Jesus as their savior. I believe that both the Qur’an and the Bible were written for times just like these.

A Christian is fed to the lions, singing.
Rome is ruined.–Ed Rand

 

[inJESUS]

. I believe that both the Qur’an and the Bible were written for times just like these.

i believe the OT was revealed by God dealing with specific times and all times, followed by a fulfillment to all times. The Quran was dictated by humans …this is why both cannot be put in equal ground. Bible revelations progessed, Quranic authors marched backward, denying the New Covenant’s fulfillments and standards by mentioning the name of Jesus without mentioning any of His fulfilments, let alone His salvation.

 

[swariffin]

.–I don’t see this as a problem.

Yes, there is no problem. The problem is when anyone belongs to any of this branched of believe claim to be superior to other.

Certainly God did not love the practices of those who occupied Canaan before the Israelites (the practiced child sacrifice, ritual prostitution, etc.) God preferred the Israelites because they brought his message and his blessing to all mankind.

Remember that by origin, Abraham was not a Jew

The bible has several mentions of things being written down before the return. The Jews made a serious attempt to gather the writings and edit them into one story after the return. The are places in the OT where it is said that Moses had things written down. Also, these stories had been passed down for generations by mouth.

That is why the holy book including the OT cannot be read as it is literally. There is no clear cut record indicating the accuracy of the story without any additions nor deletions, although involuntarily.

–God’s plans take thousands of years to develop, and are continually being worked out. God commanded the ancient Jews to conquer Canaan because a few millenia later, he wanted Rome to confront Jesus there. Would the pagans who inhabited Canaan before have had any effect on the Roman culture? No, they would have assimilated for fear of death because only monotheistic religions will produce convictions that are strengthened through outside attack.

Please tell me where do you get this idea from? Why do you link between Canaan and the Roman. Next, to whom you would like to link the Babylon? to the Muslim? This is interesting, and a brand new idea to me.

A polytheistic nation which suffers defeat must acknowledge that their Gods are weaker than those of their conquerors. A monotheistic nation which suffers defeat must ask their God why he would bring about this calamity.

Or perhaps the a monotheistic nation which suffers defeat must acknowledge that God is weak by being alone. A polytheistic nation which suffers defeat must ask their Gods why they would bring about this calamity. Which is the right expression? Mine or Yours? What if the communist chinese destroy the nation Israel with their Atomic Bomb? Do you think the non-theist nation is better?

What would the Middle East look like today without the convictions of Muslims? The Qur’an has been the greatest barrier to Western imperialism.

Ideologically, perhaps. Militarily? not a chance. All their leaders need to do is push the button. It is for them being sane people forbid them to do so.

Today, the most powerful men in the world claim Jesus as their savior. I believe that both the Qur’an and the Bible were written for times just like these.

George Bush can claim that Jesus is his savior. Whether Jesus really save him or not, we don’t know. George Bush can claim to know Jesus, but it is not necessarily Jesus knows him. I know George W. Bush, but George W. Bush does not know me. So, why linking the most powerful man in the world with Jesus?

A Christian is fed to the lions, singing.
Rome is ruined.–Ed Rand

If this is what you believe, why do you say that the Bible were written for time like this? Are you saying that the Bible is the way so that the Christian is not fed to the lions and Rome is spared?

 

[Ed_Rand]

i believe the OT was revealed by God dealing with specific times and all times, followed by a fulfillment to all times. The Quran was dictated by humans …this is why both cannot be put in equal ground. Bible revelations progessed, Quranic authors marched backward, denying the New Covenant’s fulfillments and standards by mentioning the name of Jesus without mentioning any of His fulfilments, let alone His salvation.

Although I agree with you that the Qur’an is unfair to Jesus in certain respects, I don’t think you can convince me that there are not different paths to salvation. Remember, we are brothers through Abraham. Brothers by faith. Muslims claim the legacy of Ishmael–born into an intolerable situation because of the lack of faith of Abraham and Sarah (read the passages when the angel of the Lord speaks to Hagar: Gen. 16:7-13 and when he and his mother are cast out and he is blessed by God Gen. 21:8-20). If the angel of the Lord spoke to Ishmael then, why not now?

Do Muslims consider themselves part of the new “Israel” of the NT? My guess is, no. Their covenant is different than ours. (read Galatians 4:21-31)

“O followers of the Book! why do you dispute about Ibrahim, when the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) were not revealed till after him; do you not then understand?”–Sura 3:65

But we will both be judged by Jesus. Interesting…

I just joined this forum and I feel excited…This has been a great discussion guys, thanks all!

 

[inJESUS]

Although I agree with you that the Qur’an is unfair to Jesus in certain respects

i don’t call it unfair…i call it insulting…denying what Jesus says is an insult to Jesus, not unfairness…

, I don’t think you can convince me that there are not different paths to salvation.

 

[Ed_Rand]

You are assuming things about me that are entirely backwards, brother…

That is why the holy book including the OT cannot be read as it is literally. There is no clear cut record indicating the accuracy of the story without any additions nor deletions, although involuntarily.

 

[Angelos]

doesn’t Muhammad say Jesus and Mary were sent an aya to humankind? ayatan lil alamin…?

Indeed!

This verse you have quoted obviously contradicts the one claiming that Jesus was sent only to Israel.

 

[Angelos]

For Christians who are fond of quoting imaginary verses from the Qur’an, they really do need to instead examine what Jesus (pbuh) himself says in their very own Bible:

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24) and also “These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.” (Matthew 10:5-6)

And so, since Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel, then there really was no reason why Allah would need to preserve the Gospel that was given to him, was there?

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), on the other hand, was sent as a Mercy for all of humankind and he is the Seal of the Prophets and so Allah has indeed promised to protect and preserve the Qur’an till the time when the world comes to an end.

You are ignoring the fact that Jesus was sent to Israel and accomplished His prophetic mission among His folk because Israel was the elected of God. John underlines in the prologue to his Gospel that Jesus, who came to Jews, extended grace and salvation to ALL that believed in HIM:

John 1: 10-12 He was in the world: and the world was made by him: and the world knew him not. He came unto his own: and his own received him not. But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

Further, Jesus sent His apostles and disciples to preach His message to the whole world AFTER His resurrection and ascension:

Matthew 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 24:46-48 And he said to them: Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer and to rise again from the dead, the third day: And that penance and remission of sins should be preached in his name, unto all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And you are witnesses of these things.

Nevertheless, the Koran designates itself as a message that was revealed to Mohammad’s folk alone! Although Mohammad is claimed to have a universal mission, his message is confined to ARABS of his time:

Surah 42:7. And thus We have inspired in thee a Lecture in Arabic, that thou mayst warn the mother-town and those around it, and mayst warn of a day of assembling whereof there is no doubt. (Mother-town is Mecca!)

Surah 28:46. And thou was not beside the Mount when We did call; but (the knowledge of it is) a mercy from thy Lord that thou mayst warn a folk unto whom no warner came before thee, that haply they may give heed.

Surah 43:44 And lo! it is in truth a Reminder for thee and for thy folk; and ye will be questioned.

The authors of the Koran were really in confusion!

 

[Angelos]

Besides the particular tribes that the Israelites were commanded to dedicate to God, they ancient Jews were given the DEFENSIVE command “eye for an eye” which the Qur’an also commands to Muslims. Also, I believe you are misrepresenting Islam. The Qur’an makes it possible for Muslims to leave in peace with “people of the Book”.

Show me a Koran verse that commands Muslims to live in peace with the “People of the Book” please.

That commandment (eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth) was given as a principle of communal justice to Israel , which was a nation that needed to retaliate and defend herself against other nations. However, Jesus told people to focus on LOVE instead of JUSTICE while INDIVIDUALLY dealing with their personal adversaries.In Jesus, national attitude was replaced with individual one.

“Besides, you claim that Jesus’ victory was only a POLITICAL one”
I would never say that cause I don’t believe that. It was political, spiritual, social, personal. The effects of his life on greco-roman society are unquantifiable and are still working on our culture. Don’t put words in my mouth please.

I must repeat that the spiritual triumph of Christianity against Jesus’ adversaries and Romans was Jesus’ resurrection, which was based on faith, not politics.

 

[Valke2]

If Jesus intended to shift the focus from justice to love, how does one explain things like the Crusades?

 

[sambos671]

If Jesus intended to shift the focus from justice to love, how does one explain things like the Crusades?

The same way it explains the Benjamites sinning like Sodom and Gamorrah in the book of Judges. If Moses introduced the Law and focused on the Law does it mean that The Jews followed Obediently even though in the Book of Joshua they said they would follow the Law. then in the same way many christians didn’t really follow Jesus’ teaching when it came to their conduct in the crusades.
Keep in mind the Crusades were started by Islamic agression against the trade routes (increasing taxes and cost of commerce), Pilgrims, and the Byzantines (eastern christian brothers of western christianity).

 

[Valke2]

The same way it explains the Benjamites sinning like Sodom and Gamorrah in the book of Judges. If Moses introduced the Law and focused on the Law does it mean that The Jews followed Obediently even though in the Book of Joshua they said they would follow the Law. then in the same way many christians didn’t really follow Jesus’ teaching when it came to their conduct in the crusades.
Keep in mind the Crusades were started by Islamic agression against the trade routes (increasing taxes and cost of commerce), Pilgrims, and the Byzantines (eastern christian brothers of western christianity).

But that is a justification. It ignores the concept of mercy/love over justice. Ignoring for the moment individual atrocities, the entire concept of attacking infidels seems to be a focus on justice over love.

 

[sambos671]

But that is a justification. It ignores the concept of mercy/love over justice. Ignoring for the moment individual atrocities, the entire concept of attacking infidels seems to be a focus on justice over love.

Your right. But you make an error. Christianity isn’t really about love over justice. According to chrisitanity Justice is satisfied through Jesus Christ so that leaves only for the christian Love ( I prefer Charity only because of all the weird modern conotations of love) My point was very simple. They weren’t following Jesus’ teaching like the Jews failed to follow Moses teachings. I am sure many crusaders did not think of Jesus’ example in the Garden when the soldiers came to arrest him. Peter struck off the ear of one soldier, Jesus then healed the soldier and told Peter that those who live by the sword will die by the sword. I’m not saying the attrocities were not wrong. Or that God does not abhors those acts. He does. What I am saying is what’s the difference between that and Jews sacrificing children to the different Cannanite God’s? We’re both wrong but that isn’t what God wants. He wants christians to love their enemies.
The crusades for the most part were a failure for the west though it did keep Islam out of most of Europe for awhile.

 

[Angelos]

If Jesus intended to shift the focus from justice to love, how does one explain things like the Crusades?

The example of crusades is by no means related to my post because Jesus asked people NOT to be vindictive while dealing with their adversaries personally. The Crusades, on the other hand, were organized by the Catholic Church, who complied with the European kingdoms of the time to represent the whole Catholic population as a united and strong nation defending Herself against Islamic aggression and invasion.

 

[Ed_Rand]

SIZE=“2”]Show me a Koran verse that commands Muslims to live in peace with the “People of the Book” please.

 

[Ed_Rand]

If Jesus intended to shift the focus from justice to love, how does one explain things like the Crusades?

Simple. People often act out of sync with their beliefs. We shouldn’t judge a particular faith by the actions of its adherrents. I spent 5 years as an agnostic because I judged the worth of my faith not by its teachings, but by the deeds of others and myself as well.

 

[inJESUS]

.

I’ll give you a few verses: "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. Sura 2;62