Jesus' status in Islam and Judaism

[morning_star777]

at last mr.Ed,QURAN denied jesus as GOD.but in bible GOD says that jesus is his son.so how is it possible that 1st GOD taught us about jesus that jesus is his son and later denied?what do you think is GOD an abnormal person or liar(GOD save me!)?no GOD never lie.so which book deny jesus as GOD this book can’t be the word of GOD.so if jesus is GOD the holy son(of course jesus is son of God&God himself),then quran isn’t the word of GOD.

 

[Angelos]

Obviously, Islam is not mentioned in the Bible. The three major monotheistic religions claim decendency through Abraham, Christians and Jews through Isaac and Muslims through Ishmael–the son born because of Abraham and Sarah’s lack of faith in God’s promises.

Islam only CLAIMS descendency from Abraham’s faith, which is NOT necessarily true. More, the supposition that ALL Arabs are Ishmael’s descendants will not automatically make Mohammad’s teachings correct or trustworthy. If you believe the Koran to be true, you have to believe that the Bible is wrong, for both cannot be true at the same time.

 

[morning_star777]

If you believe the Koran to be true, you have to believe that the Bible is wrong, for both cannot be true at the same time.

exactly mr.angelos,i agree with you.both quran&bible can not be true at the same time.so either bible is true or quran.if bible is true then quran isn’t true&if quran is true then bible isn’t true.so mr.Ed,u have to decide which is true,bible or quran.

 

[Mjae]

Obviously, Islam is not mentioned in the Bible. The three major monotheistic religions claim decendency through Abraham, Christians and Jews through Isaac and Muslims through Ishmael–the son born because of Abraham and Sarah’s lack of faith in God’s promises.

There is no historical evidence that muslims are descended from Ishmael. His mother, Hagar (Sarah’s slave/servant) was Egyptian, not Arab.

Islam denies Jesus’ crucifixion, His resurrection, the Trinity, and salvation for humankind. If you read the Koran honestly, you must necessarily come to the conclusion that Islam and Christianity are incompatible, as belief in the Koran makes God a liar. But take your time. Better if you figure it out for yourself.

 

[swariffin]

Some parts can be read literally, some figuratively, we must try our best. I try not to worry about additions, deletions and such. God gave me what I need for my salvation.

Our muslim brothers will not agree on this, Ed. For them, the Quran is what it is written per se.

These are just some of my own musings. The link between Canaan and Rome is simply that the Canaanites lived in an area where Rome would later occupy Jewish lands and be conquered by Jesus Christ. Babylon from Revelation? What do we know about her? She will be a new powerful empire, city,…entity…which excersizes sovereignty over the nations of the earth. She will be gluttonously rich off of world trade. She will vigorously export her ungodly ways to all the nations. Many people in all nations will praise her for her wealth and power and many will get rich as a result of their compliance. She will be detested by God’s true believers. And the blood of God’s servants will be on her hands. How could I link this to Muslims?

If the link between Canaan and Rome is just your own musing (I considered it as your hyphothesis), then I will not discuss it further. Just to a piece of advice of further objective research, before you believe in things that you are musing, to make sure you won’t come into the wrong conclusions.

Why I asked the link to the muslims? I remembered one Hamas leader of claiming to conquer Rome as he claimed it to be the capital of Christianity. Somebody brought it forward in this forum, and it triggered my memory when I read your posting.

Your right. I forgot to ask what the United States would look like if it weren’t for our Judeo-Christian ethics.

Poor Guy, Mr. Bush… He just needs a big hug.

Don’t forget that there is native Indian there. If the European never step in there, … BTW, you are correct. Judeo-Chritian ethics do influence what is so called as the western society.

About Mr. President? Everybody needs a big hug anyway, including you and me.

You seriously misunderstand me.

A Christian is fed to the lions, singing.
Rome is ruined.–Ed Rand

You are correct. I don’t understand what do you mean by having a footnote like this.

 

[swariffin]

If Jesus intended to shift the focus from justice to love, how does one explain things like the Crusades?

That what happens if one begin to link wars with religion. If Mohammad never visited Jerusalem and never claim that he visited heaven from Jerusalem, there would never been the crusade. I really wonder why did he started the religion there in the land of Arabia, visited Jerusalem, claimed to visit heaven from Jerusalem, prayed to the direction of Jerusalem, but later moved the Qibla to Mecca, but still claim the significance of Jerusalem?

 

[swariffin]

**Simple. People often act out of sync with their beliefs. We shouldn’t judge a particular faith by the actions of its adherrents. **I spent 5 years as an agnostic because I judged the worth of my faith not by its teachings, but by the deeds of others and myself as well.

Good thinking. There is no such thing of holywar. All wars must have a certain political or economical hidden agenda, and were put in the name of religion.

 

[swariffin]

inJESUS;3780594:

haven’t seen any. The unbelievers are Christians and Jews who, by their actions, are recognized as unbelievers, hypocrites. I am new to the Qur’an but this is how I read it. I am quite sure that unbelievers does not mean all those who are not Muslim. Can a Muslim back me up here please? I am a Christian who believes the Qur’an is also God’s word. I believe in the Last Day and I look forward to when Jesus will settle our differences. I believe your path and mine are equally reliable paths to heaven. Would you call me an unbeliever? Actually, here’s a better question… Would the Christians here call me an unbeliever because of my views on Islam?

Dear Ed,

Our brother Planten (a muslim) will say that you are not considered as unbeliever. But, those Hamas leaders won’t.

 

[swariffin]

I read those verses. I must say only verse 9:29 could possibly support your claim and I do recognize that the Qur’an does not say to simply ignore Christians, and yeah they’re supposed to pay tax and be second class, etc. However, there are a multitude of versus that divide the people of the Book into unbelievers and believers.

Dear Ed,

You agree that being Christian living in their area, means being a SECOND class citizen. Now, compared to what Jesus said (as you claim to be a Christian) : "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (Mat 5:44). Can you see the difference in the teaching? Why would God revealed His teaching in 30AD, and later changed His mind in 600AD?

 

[morning_star777]

Dear Ed,

Our brother Planten (a muslim) will say that you are not considered as unbeliever. But, those Hamas leaders won’t.

yes my brother,you are correct.mr.planten don’t think that christians are unbeliever but hamas think so.&not only hamas but also most of muslims think that non muslims r unbeliever&also treat us as profane.&most of muslims in my country mentally hate non muslims.

 

[Valke2]

There is no historical evidence that muslims are descended from Ishmael. His mother, Hagar (Sarah’s slave/servant) was Egyptian, not Arab.

Islam denies Jesus’ crucifixion, His resurrection, the Trinity, and salvation for humankind. If you read the Koran honestly, you must necessarily come to the conclusion that Islam and Christianity are incompatible, as belief in the Koran makes God a liar. But take your time. Better if you figure it out for yourself.

what does compatibility have to do with the concept of love and tolerance through the example that we are all descended from the same branch?

 

[Angelos]

what does compatibility have to do with the concept of love and tolerance through the example that we are all descended from the same branch?

Do your love and tolerance for Muslims make you consider the Islamic scripture divinely inspired or revealed?

 

[Valke2]

Do your love and tolerance for Muslims make you consider the Islamic scripture divinely inspired or revealed?

It makes me consider that Islam is as valid a way to connect with God as Judaism or Christianity. But not for me.

 

[Angelos]

It makes me consider that Islam is as valid a way to connect with God as Judaism or Christianity. But not for me.

What about Buddhism, Hinduism, idolatry, the other faiths?

Do you believe that Islam becomes a valid faith only for those who believe in it? Does one’s belief in a certain faith suffice to make it valid? You must be talking about personal validity then.

 

[Ed_Rand]

There is no historical evidence that muslims are descended from Ishmael. His mother, Hagar (Sarah’s slave/servant) was Egyptian, not Arab.

It matters not where his mother was from. What matters is where his people settled. What is the last we hear from Ishmael in the Bible?

Ishmael helps his brother Isaac bury their father Abraham.
The Ishmael “breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his peole. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the border of Egypt, as you go towrd Asshur. And they lived in hostility toward all their brothers.”

Where is Havilah?
“Havilah is usually associated with northwest Yemen (see the Table of Nations), but in the work associated with the Garden of Eden by Juris Zarins, the Hijaz mountains south of Medina (circa 400 miles north of Yemen) appear to potentially meet the description of Havila.”–Wikipedia

Where is Shur? On the Sinai peninsula. So basically the descendants of Ishmael settled on the western half of the Arabian peninsula. Interesting, no? What great nation came from there? God does not lie.

 

[Ed_Rand]

Sorry it took so long to continue this Angelo. Yesterday I wrote a lengthy reply and erased it by accident. Then I rewrote it, and then the devil made me erase it again!!! Or was it God… So for the third time, here it goes…

You are blaming me ( a former Muslim) for deliberately misrepresenting the Koran? This is not a matter of misrepresentation, but of your willingness to ignore certain facts.

I never said deliberately. Stop putting words in my mouth. there is a difference of interpretation here, but we also cannot agree on the facts apparently.

First, this is not Jesus speaking, but Mohammad’s scribes! Second, the verse I quoted goes against your presumption since it overtly asserts that MOST of the Christians are evil-livers.

I quoted Matthew 7:21, in which Jesus also asserts that many Christians will not enter the kingdom of heaven. This is roughly what that verse in the Qur’an says.

So you accept that ALL Christians are cursed by Allah, who put enmity and hatred amongst them until the day of judgment? Sorry, you cannot be a Christian if you believe in this faulty generalization made in the Koran. I must also remind you that the verse I quoted does not divide Christians into two distinct groups on the basis of their faith, but talks of Christians as ONE community equally punished and cursed by Mohammad’s Allah!

You are right, this is the only verse you quoted that speaks of Christians as a whole. As to the truth of the quote… How many Christian denominations are there? How many of those believe that the followers of other sects are going to hell? You and I claim Jesus Christ as our risen Lord, we study the Bible as God’s most sublime revelation, and yet here you are telling me that I can’t be a Christian. Is this not a curse? Have you not seen enmity and hatred here on this forum?

In order to understand my point, you should read that verse again more carefully and focus on the phrase “those who do not follow the religion of truth”.

After reading the verse for the 5th time, I must admit that it does urge Muslims to fight (this can take many forms) all who do not follow the Qur’an “until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.” However, this does not “condemn both Jews and Christians to Hell for not believing in Mohammad and his supposed revelation” as you claimed.

This claim has not been proven by anyone on this thread.

I’ll continue with another disagreement you and I had earlier.

I said:

Those of you who are bashing the Qur’an without having given it serious thought, attributing it to Satan and such, explain to me why our text has God promise Abraham that he will make a nation of Ishmael’s decendants. And then He hears Ishmael crying in the desert and the angel of the Lord promises Hagar that he will make Ishmael “into a great nation” and his decendants will be “too numerous to count”. Genesis 16:9-13, 21:8-18. Where else are these promises fullfilled but through Islam? A read through Romans 4 should also help us sort out the issues.

And you replied,

This argument of yours makes no sense to me, for God, who promises to make Ishmael into a great nation, by no means promises to endorse the religious teachings of a man that is of the same nation. Actually, the promise of God in the OT about Ishmael is not religious, but secular in essence.

This man, Muhammad, is not “of the same nation”. He and the book he composed CREATED that nation. The Ishmaelites, who settled on the western half of the Arabian peninsula (as we are told in Genesis 25:18), were an insignificant group of warring tribes until Muhammed binded them under the Qur’an. Tell me, how is a promise of God secular?

 

[Ed_Rand]

the common faiths in muslims(according to their scripture)are,all non muslims will go to hell and will stay there forever.QUOTE]

Again, This has yet to be proven by anyone on this thread.

Also, if a Muslim believes this, I would say he’s confused about his own scripture.

 

[inJESUS]

I quoted Matthew 7:21, in which Jesus also asserts that many Christians will not enter the kingdom of heaven. This is roughly what that verse in the Qur’an says.

 

[Ed_Rand]

absolutely not. Jesus is talking about lipservice that is, faith without work. Muhammad is taking about Christian BELIEF.

In the verse we were discussing, Muhammad is also talking about lip service. “we give those of them who believe their reward, but many of them are evil-livers.” Sura 57:27

the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is the saying from their mouth; (In this) they are intimate; what the Unbelievers of the old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth. [Qur’an 9:30]

This does not say we are doomed to hell. Sorry.

inJESUS, I completely understand why you and many others have to have it one way. Yet, Muslims can have it both ways. For them, the Bible and the Qur’an are the word of God, yet the Bible and its teachings have been corrupted by men. Nonetheless, as a Christian it is much harder for me to explain why I believe both are the word of God. Let me try.

Would you agree that God changes his message throughout time? For instance, he ordered the genocide of the Canaanites in the beginning. He gave the Jews, “eye for an eye”. Then, thousands of years later when the Romans had conquered the same land and were oppressing his people, he ordered us to “love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you”. Things CHANGED from the Old Testament to the New. Also, Jesus was adamant that the ruling religious figures had corrupted God’s word–the same that Muhammad claimed about the Bible.

How can I claim that both the Bible and Quran are the word of God and at the same time that God does not lie? Simple. God told his people Israel something different than he told Muslims. This does not make God a liar. God operates on a different plain than you and I my friend.
Would you not agree that Christians throughout time have been corrupting God’s word? As we speak, the USA–which fancies itself a Christian nation–is continuing an agreesive, offensive war against Muslims… “Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you”, “turn to him the other cheek”. Is this not massive corruption of God’s commands? Could it be that God brought forth Islam because of this type of massive transgression?

So Muslims say that my source is corrupted. My reply, “that may be, but there is ample revelation there to lead me to heaven. And if I’m wrong, I choose to hear it from Jesus on the Last Day”, not from you."
What do I think of their book? It is unfortunate that God had to reverse some of his most sublime teachings because of massive transgressions by Christians. As Angelo noted earlier, “That commandment (eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth) was given as a principle of communal justice to Israel , which was a nation that needed to retaliate and defend herself against other nations.”

Is there a Muslim on this forum that will not admit that “turn your cheek” is infinitely more divine than “eye for an eye”? “Eye for an eye” is animal. “Turn your cheek and pray for your enemy” could only be divine.

Also, what does the Bible say is required to be a child of Abraham? Do Muslims who live by the Qur’an not qualify?

 

[inJESUS]

This does not