Jesus vs Muhammad

[elwill]

Elwill…from yahoo news…Please pay attention to the bold red type. I’m sure you agree this is deplorable. But you asked for an example

.

i appreciate your respond , but actaully it’s not what i asked

LittleSoldier , mentioned somthings as **kidnappings **of young Christian girls and **forcing them to convert to Islam **, treating them as slaves, and are raped, beaten, **and murdered **keep happening **without punishments **

brother , am not asking about age of marriage here

 

[dzheremi]

i appreciate your respond , but actaully it’s not what i asked

LittleSoldier , mentioned somthings as **kidnappings **of young Christian girls and **forcing them to convert to Islam **, treating them as slaves, and are raped, beaten, **and murdered **keep happening **without punishments **

brother , am not asking about age of marriage here

Ask and ye shall receive, though you’re not going to like it. It happens in your own country of Egypt. This problem is well-known and internationally reported. It is also reported that the police and security services often protect or help the kidnappers, not the victims or their families.

God save the Christians of Egypt.

 

[qwerk]

No! It can’t be! I am so sad and discouraged now.

We should all remember this poor CHILD in our prayers, and also her murderer and the clerics.

Please excuse my poor usage of terminology. I am brand new to this subject and I’m quite confused by certain words and terms. Although I google them I am still confused.

What I am seeing is a lack of respect from many Muslims towards approximately 50% of the world’s population - females.

I’m reading about the kidnappings of young Christian girls who are forced to convert to Islam, who are treated as slaves, who are raped, beaten, and murdered. They have no rights. They are considered to be the property of their husbands.

This is barbaric and totally unacceptable. Yet it seems to be common and there is rarely any punishment doled out to the men who perpetuate this belittling and disrespect for women, as far as I can see.

I’ve got news - girls and women are human beings, just like men. Being one myself, I shudder when I read posts like the one I quoted above. This sort of behavior is just not right. Everything we do should be based on love - the kind of love Jesus taught us to have.

I’m not seeing that love coming from very many Muslims.

I know I’m opening myself up for attack by posting this, but please try to understand that I am a poorly educated (in terms of Muslims and Islam) female who is trying to learn. Maybe a Muslim can explain to me why these atrocious acts keep happening with no or little punishment.

This is a thread about Jesus and Muhammed. These are the two Commandments Jesus gave us:

The two great commandments that contain** the whole law of God** are:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment.

And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

[Douay-Rheims, Matthew 22] [bolding added]

Is there anything like this in Islam?

*Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

St. Francis, please pray for all unwanted and hurt animals.***

Yes, you will be attacked and it will not always be pleasant. What I notice is the lack of outrage from Muslims or the care to change the things that cause the violence in Islam and that includes reeducation, or even stopping zakat from going to support them. Yes, their own zakat, or what we call Charity, is supposed to go and support the violent ones. Sharia laws (h8.17)

From what I see is after violent attacks there is a strong effort to come out as being the victims instead of the care to stop the violence. Or to just give us dis-information as to the real meaning of Jihad (see my thread that I started about ‘Jihad and its real meaning’) A video here about a guy trying to get a Muslim to admit to what it say in black and white.

For them to keep denying what Islam is about is only making them obviously practicing their religious deception, taqiyya.

If we follow Jesus’ two laws the other commandments that are from the Old Testament fall into place. In Islam, if one is a non-Muslim then any resemblence to the 10 Commandments don’t even apply. If the Muslim(s) are generally good people then there is no problem, if they are not following Islam, there is no problem…BUT that is not always the case and there is nothing to help out non-Muslims if the Muslims are religious and/or bad people.

We are trying to understand Islam with a Western frame of mind too. We attach all these labels on them when in fact, Islam is a deen.

deen is a submission, following and worship by man for the creator, the ruler, the subjugator in a comprehensive system of life with all its belief, intellectual, moral and practical aspects.

After understanding this definition of the Arabic word deen, we realize that it is wrong to translate it to the English with the word “religion”. Furthermore we do not need anyone to come up with a definition for the word deen for us- like many of the enemies of Islam do today- But, we should take precaution and warn Muslims against these conspiracies that are plotted against Muslims to keep them away from the reality of their deen and distort the concept of deen or restrict it to one aspect of life-like they (None Muslim) did with there religion and church after the French Revolution.

The above was taken from a Muslim website so no one can accuse me of anything or having a misconception. In other words, Islam is NOT a religion.

Col. West put it the best that I have found:

'First of all you have to study and know who you are up against. And you are not a religion that you are fighting against, but a theo-political belief system and construct. You are fighting against something that has been doing this since 622 AD, since the 7th century for 1388 years. You want to dig up Charles Martel and ask him why he was fighting the Muslim army at the Battle of Tours in 732 AD? Do you want to ask the Venetian fleet at La Ponto (spelling?) why they were fighting a Muslim fleet in 1571 AD? Do you want to ask the Germanic or Austrain knights why they were fighting the Gates of Vienna in 1683? Do you want to ask people what happened at Constantinople and why today its called Istanbul because they lost that fight in 1453?

You need to get into the koran, you need to understand their precepts, you need to read the sira, you need to read the hadiths and THEN you can really understand that this is not a perversion. they are doing exactly what this book says…’

 

[lastinline]

i appreciate your respond , but actaully it’s not what i asked

LittleSoldier , mentioned somthings as **kidnappings **of young Christian girls and **forcing them to convert to Islam **, treating them as slaves, and are raped, beaten, **and murdered **keep happening **without punishments **

brother , am not asking about age of marriage here

I understand that you are not. But did you not see where Islamic Clerics are fighting a ban on this?

 

[elwill]

Ask and ye shall receive, though you’re not going to like it. It happens in your own country of Egypt. This problem is well-known and internationally reported. It is also reported that the police and security services often protect or help the kidnappers, not the victims or their families.

God save the Christians of Egypt.

these reports not authentic nor reliable to me . it’s merely allegations not facts

 

[elwill]

I understand that you are not. But did you not see where Islamic Clerics are fighting a ban on this?

fighting a ban on what exactly ?

 

[lastinline]

fighting a ban on what exactly ?

Did you not read the article I posted? Please do.

 

[LittleSoldier]

it will be pleasure to to explain whatever you want
you asking about why kidnappings of young Christian girls and forcing them to convert to Islam , treating them as slaves, and are raped, beaten, and murdered keep happening without punishments
if this is your question , then may be i have the right to ask which countries allows these crimes to happen without punishments ?

Say, come, I will recite what God has made a sacred duty for you: Ascribe nothing as equal with God;
Be good to your parents;
You shall not kill your children on a plea of want; we provide sustenance for you and for them;
You shall not approach lewd behavior whether open or in secret,
You shall not take life, which God has made sacred, except by way of justice and law. Thus does God command you, that you may learn wisdom.
And you shall not approach the property of the orphan, except to improve it, until he attains the age of maturity.
Give full measure and weight, in justice; no burden should be placed on any soul but that which it can bear.
And if you give your word, do it justice, even if a near relative is concerned; and fulfill your obligations before God. Thus does God command you, that you may remember.
Verily, this is my straight path: follow it, and do not follow other paths which will separate you from God’s path. Thus does God command you, that you may be righteous. (6:151-153)

You shall regard the parents, the relatives, the orphans, the poor, the related neighbor, the unrelated neighbor, the close associate, the traveling alien, and your servants. (4:36)

Thank you so much for your response. I read my post and wasn’t happy with the way I worded it. I apologize if I offended anyone. I didn’t mean to do that.

My knowledge of geography is woefully inadequate and I apologize for that. I have some brain damage from medication I have taken for many years and it affects my memory to the point that I have retroactive amnesia and have lost a lot of what I used to know. If I learned about Muslim countries I have forgotten absolutely everything I ever knew. I have absolutely no idea which countries allow these atrocities. I hope that none do. If you can recommend a good website that would provide information about countries which are predominantly Muslim it would be very helpful to me. I checked out one website which was linked in this thread and for the life of me, could not decide if it was pro-Muslim, anti-Muslim, or neutral, although I suspect it was anti-Muslim. It’s much easier for me to determine if a website is anti-Catholic or anti-Christian simply because I know much more about my own faith.

Here is a list of websites. I know that anything, true or false, can be presented as true on the Internet. I’ve seen rabid anti-Catholic websites. I don’t know about the veracity of information I am reading when I see websites which describe “Muslim atrocities.” I believe that most people in the world are good and decent. Christians do not have a monopoly on charity.

So, please imagine my confusion when I read what is on the following websites (also, please note this is a very small number of websites. I’m sure I could list a hundred in a day, easily) and I have no doubt some of these are anti-Muslim and use the same shock techniques as some anti-Catholic websites. I’m also certain that some news items reported are duplications or continuations of other news items:

priuschat.com/forums/freds-house-pancakes/29896-muslims-now-rampantly-kidnapping-christians.html

israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/127592

jihadwatch.org/2009/12/muslims-kidnap-christian-girl-at-university-of-mosul.html

wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52410

persecutionblog.com/2009/06/pakistan-muslim-forces-12yearold-girl-to-convert-marry-him.html

journalchretien.net/7593-nigeria-muslim-militants-kidnap

wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41805

aina.org/news/20090811144715.htm

debate.org.uk/topics/coolcalm/trials.html

infidelsarecool.com/2010/02/23/pakistan-mob-of-muslims-beat-a-christian-who-refused-conversion-to-islam/

bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-christians-news.htm

amboytimes.typepad.com/the_amboy_times/2008/05/muslim-polygami.html

*Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

St… Francis, please pray for all unwanted and hurt animals.*

 

[elwill]

Did you not read the article I posted? Please do.

i did offcourse

 

[elwill]

Thank you so much for your response. I read my post and wasn’t happy with the way I worded it. I apologize if I offended anyone. I didn’t mean to do that.

My knowledge of geography is woefully inadequate and I apologize for that. I have some brain damage from medication I have taken for many years and it affects my memory to the point that I have retroactive amnesia and have lost a lot of what I used to know. If I learned about Muslim countries I have forgotten absolutely everything I ever knew. I have absolutely no idea which countries allow these atrocities. I hope that none do. If you can recommend a good website that would provide information about countries which are predominantly Muslim it would be very helpful to me. I checked out one website which was linked in this thread and for the life of me, could not decide if it was pro-Muslim, anti-Muslim, or neutral, although I suspect it was anti-Muslim. It’s much easier for me to determine if a website is anti-Catholic or anti-Christian simply because I know much more about my own faith.

Here is a list of websites. I know that anything, true or false, can be presented as true on the Internet. I’ve seen rabid anti-Catholic websites. I don’t know about the veracity of information I am reading when I see websites which describe “Muslim atrocities.” I believe that most people in the world are good and decent. Christians do not have a monopoly on charity.

So, please imagine my confusion when I read what is on the following websites (also, please note this is a very small number of websites. I’m sure I could list a hundred in a day, easily) and I have no doubt some of these are anti-Muslim and use the same shock techniques as some anti-Catholic websites. I’m also certain that some news items reported are duplications or continuations of other news items:

priuschat.com/forums/freds-house-pancakes/29896-muslims-now-rampantly-kidnapping-christians.html

israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/127592

jihadwatch.org/2009/12/muslims-kidnap-christian-girl-at-university-of-mosul.html

wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52410

persecutionblog.com/2009/06/pakistan-muslim-forces-12yearold-girl-to-convert-marry-him.html

journalchretien.net/7593-nigeria-muslim-militants-kidnap

wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41805

aina.org/news/20090811144715.htm

debate.org.uk/topics/coolcalm/trials.html

infidelsarecool.com/2010/02/23/pakistan-mob-of-muslims-beat-a-christian-who-refused-conversion-to-islam/

bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-christians-news.htm

amboytimes.typepad.com/the_amboy_times/2008/05/muslim-polygami.html

*Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

St… Francis, please pray for all unwanted and hurt animals.*

no offense be taken , never mind
i can understand the confusion you have from what you read

but why the confusion ? once you determine your goal you can get it
if you waana to condemn islam and hate it , you can find the sites which will satisfying you
if you wanna to learn about islam and wanna to hear from muslims themselfs about thier moral views and respecting for women , you can find the sites which present the openion of muslims

if you wanna to collect crimes commited by muslims , you will succeed either

whatever you want , you will find in the internet . it’s you who dtermine what you really wanna to know

 

[dzheremi]

these reports not authentic nor reliable to me . it’s merely allegations not facts

And from what sources would you find authentic and reliable reports? There are A LOT of reports of this behavior. The two links I posted were just two I found on the first page of Google results.

For someone who refuses to believe, no evidence is adequate. I can post a million articles, but I can’t take your head out of the sand for you.

 

[qwerk]

no offense be taken , never mind
i can understand the confusion you have from what you read

but why the confusion ? once you determine your goal you can get it
if you waana to condemn islam and hate it , you can find the sites which will satisfying you
if you wanna to learn about islam and wanna to hear from muslims themselfs about thier moral views and respecting for women , you can find the sites which present the openion of muslims

if you wanna to collect crimes commited by muslims , you will succeed either

whatever you want , you will find in the internet . it’s you who dtermine what you really wanna to know

One doesn’t need a website to do that. All one has to do is read the Quran, Hadith, Sira, Sharia laws and its history. No need to go to anywhere else. The problem is that most Muslims won’t even admit to this and blame the media, or something else. The Muslims themselves are the best source to find what is the problem with Islam because of their inaction to change what is wrong in Islam. Mostly due to the fact that they don’t find what we see as a problem. They want to excuse it away, not look inward. They want to blame everyone else, not themselves.

 

[richardacombs]

For Christians who are happily pointing to Matthew 15-11 as “justification” for them to consume pork and blood:

11What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’ "

They really do need to refer to a later passage in the chapter in order to view and understand the above verse in it’s proper and correct context:

16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
17"Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body?
18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’
19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
20These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’ "

You see, Jesus (pbuh) was most certainly not giving permission to his followers to consume pork and blood because verse 11 above is referring to those who eat with unwashed hands, NOT those who consume pork and blood which is forbidden according to the teachings of Jesus (pbuh).

I urge Christians to follow Jesus (pbuh) and stop consuming pork and blood.

You fall into the common error of extracting a Scriptural phrase and not bothering to place it in the context of the entire Bible. Using your same method, many a Christian, like Geert Wilders in his movie Fitna, has “proven,” using isolated Suras from the Quran, that Islam is little more than a confederation of bloodthirsty barbarians.

If you haven’t seen Fitna, I suggest that you watch it on youtube.

A single phrase out of several verses in a Biblical chapter does not necessarily make a valid point. You should read all of the Bible, which I hope will convert you to the True Faith, and you will see, that after a convocation of Church leaders in the First Century about dietary restrictions and other Jewish rituals, the Apostle Peter and other apostles decided, as is explicitly stated in Acts 15:20: “…we should send word to them [early Christians in Antioch] in writing to abstain from and avoid anything that has been polluted by being offered to idols, and all sexual impurity, and [eating meat of animals] that have been strangled, and [tasting of] blood.”

In Matthew 15:11-20, Jesus is clearly explaining that the things humans eat or drink do not make them “ritually unclean,” because the food and drink that go into their mouths are processed by their bodies and eliminated. It’s the evil that comes out of human souls, expressed by what they say, that makes them “unclean.” He didn’t mean that you shouldn’t wash your hands before eating, but that you should worry more about what comes out of you than what goes into you.

If you like, I will refer you to free versions of online Bibles and Bible studies, where you can read the entire Scripture and attain a better understanding of both Testaments. It doesn’t cost you a cent, and you can read the Word of God firsthand.

 

[elwill]

And from what sources would you find authentic and reliable reports? There are A LOT of reports of this behavior. The two links I posted were just two I found on the first page of Google results.

For someone who refuses to believe, no evidence is adequate. I can post a million articles, but I can’t take your head out of the sand for you.

dzherem , i’m trying to be objective , all what i said is that these reports are merely allegations . it wasn’t proofed to be facts , no cases and no official declarations , even the form of writing seems to me as if it was personal thoughts and allegations from someone .

you can believe them , but you have no proofs to convince me believing them

 

[qwerk]

dzherem , i’m trying to be objective , all what i said is that these reports are merely allegations . it wasn’t proofed to be facts , no cases and no official declarations , even the form of writing seems to me as if it was personal thoughts and allegations from someone .

you can believe them , but you have no proofs to convince me believing them

Actually, most of them are facts and not allegations. I will hazard a guess that you are not even reading them.

Is this why there is no Muslim outrage? They don’t care enough to read what is happening? I guess it makes life easier for them if they don’t read them.

 

[dzheremi]

Elwill:

Your cry of “objectivity” is a little strange here. I am an outsider, a non-Egyptian and a Christian, so I recognize that I may be a little more likely to believe these accounts than the average Egyptian Muslim would be. However, were it not for the volume of such accounts, and the growing recognition of the problem even in Egyptian media (most of which refuses to talk about systematic persecution of the Copts, as this destroys the facade of Egyptian secularism), I would perhaps be taken in by your protestations. As it is, I can only offer one more link (well, really, I can offer many more, but we’ve been through why this is unproductive), including some portions I will quote here in case qwerk is right and you really aren’t reading them.

From an article by Dr. Waheed Alla found here (all emphases and truncations mine):

But the big surprise is a heavy-caliber bomb that Dr. Mustafa Al-Feqee exploded by his confession. His statements in Al-Ahram, in the article “The Era Dialogue….All in One” published on Jan. 7th, 2008; are clear and explicit, without twisting or turnover.

(What Al-Feqee wrote follows, in quotation from the article.)

" One day I was surprised when a man, who exceeded sixty years old, tried deliberately to sit by my side. He said that he wanted to talk with me on a special matter, and he began telling me with tears in his eyes that he was the Vice-President of an Egyptian bank, and that he has a single daughter that worked a in one of the foreign companies in Cairo. His daughter fell in love with her Coptic colleague, and after a few months she fled with him abroad, and the father and mother are going backwards and forwards between police stations and corridors of the judiciary; talking to the stars and praying to God, until they received a message from their daughter in which she says she resides in Cyprus with her husband and she gave birth to a girl. She left Islam and converted to Christianity…and then he added (while he is crying) that all that her mother and I want is to see her even once before we leave this world! This human tragedy is offset on the other side - dozens of cases of abducted minor girls from some Christian families, and their parents face the same sad feelings that struck this good Muslim whose daughter escaped with a Christian husband outside the country. This is a very disturbing matter, and it is a cause for concern; meaning that the climate is an unhealthy and unfavorable climate - there are clouds of intolerance and contempt of religions. Going backwards and forwards between religions for one’s self interest is a danger that threatens the march of the nation and the stability of its future.”

The ultimate goal of this article is propagandistic (certainly no Christian agrees with this nonsense of “going backwards and forwards between religions”!), but I should like to point out two important facts to you:

• It is published in Al-Ahram, a legitimate Egyptian newspaper that is well-respected and widely read across all of Egypt and wider parts of the Arab and non-Arab world.
• While minimizing them, it recognizes that there is a real issue of minor Coptic girls being abducted by Muslims. It is NOT a rumor started by Copts or their supporters – it is essentially true. It is not hearsay or baseless accusations, but a real problem in the relations between Muslims and Copts in Egypt.

 

[leyes]

dzherem , i’m trying to be objective , all what i said is that these reports are merely allegations . it wasn’t proofed to be facts , no cases and no official declarations , even the form of writing seems to me as if it was personal thoughts and allegations from someone .

you can believe them , but you have no proofs to convince me believing them

either you are are lieing which is acceptable under your religion or you actually are that blind and ignorant.

ok here are some videos if you want more just ask

youtube.com/watch#!v=8zk9lhwq8X8&feature=related

youtube.com/watch#!v=jDLb2GuIM3Y&feature=related

youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3DoVaUeUWZU7c%26feature%3Dplayer_embedded

also to all of you catholic users never trust a muslim especially when it comes to their religion.

 

[hamba2han]

You fall into the common error of extracting a Scriptural phrase and not bothering to place it in the context of the entire Bible. Using your same method, many a Christian, like Geert Wilders in his movie Fitna, has “proven,” using isolated Suras from the Quran, that Islam is little more than a confederation of bloodthirsty barbarians.

If you haven’t seen Fitna, I suggest that you watch it on youtube.

A single phrase out of several verses in a Biblical chapter does not necessarily make a valid point. You should read all of the Bible, which I hope will convert you to the True Faith, and you will see, that after a convocation of Church leaders in the First Century about dietary restrictions and other Jewish rituals, the Apostle Peter and other apostles decided, as is explicitly stated in Acts 15:20: “…we should send word to them [early Christians in Antioch] in writing to abstain from and avoid anything that has been polluted by being offered to idols, and all sexual impurity, and [eating meat of animals] that have been strangled, and [tasting of] blood.”

In Matthew 15:11-20, Jesus is clearly explaining that the things humans eat or drink do not make them “ritually unclean,” because the food and drink that go into their mouths are processed by their bodies and eliminated. It’s the evil that comes out of human souls, expressed by what they say, that makes them “unclean.” He didn’t mean that you shouldn’t wash your hands before eating, but that you should worry more about what comes out of you than what goes into you.

If you like, I will refer you to free versions of online Bibles and Bible studies, where you can read the entire Scripture and attain a better understanding of both Testaments. It doesn’t cost you a cent, and you can read the Word of God firsthand.

This is the beginning of Matthew 15:

1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!"

Clearly, the question posed to Jesus (pbuh) was specifically about eating with unwashed hands.

And when Jesus (pbuh) delivers his answer, he concludes with:

20 These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’ "

And so, verse 11 ("What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’ ") which of course lies in the middle of the answer that Jesus (pbuh) gave, must logically be specifically in response to the question which he was asked i.e. about eating with unwashed hands.

For Christians to liberally extrapolate this answer of Jesus (pbuh), which he gave in response to a specific question about eating with unwashed hands, in order to make such a broad generalization and hence allowing the permissibility of consuming all kinds of food, regardless of any religious prohibitions, is grossly erroneous and plainly wrong.

 

[canadiangoose]

Richard…you’ve really gotta listen to a few people here and just ignore his nonsense. If everyone ignores him…he might just go away.

 

[Sam_777]

Richard…you’ve really gotta listen to a few people here and just ignore his nonsense. If everyone ignores him…he might just go away.

well… I disagree with you, hamba2han is the most knowledgeable Muslim about Islam I have seen on CAF so far.

You have to teach him/her about Christianity, point out for him/her the wrongs from rights, however, you have just registered three days back and you say such thing about a senior member!!!