Jesus vs Muhammad

[qwerk]

Perhaps this is the teaching of Jesus that other posters here are pointing out to be taken into action, which means that though Islam’s ideology could be so much deviated from Christianity’s, God would never fail to give His love and mercy to muslims that we’re also have to abide to.

Any arguments brought to the forum of different religion especially regarding Islamic faith seems to end up to bashing Islam (and to some extent bashing Christianity as well).
Is the motive to evangelize muslims so that they can see the flaws in their religion Or just to have some superior feeling towards other?

If the motive is to evangelize, I think it’s rather difficult if we start by pointing flaws of other. Remember, it is usually difficult to agree to people who keep insulting or telling someone’s flaws to be able to turn him to the right path. But anyway…I also don’t know the right tools to do so…
Muslim’s real objection of Christian is that they think we have put Jesus as God. That’s the main reason that they wouldn’t bother your lists of their flaws, as they will always believe that whatever you think, it’s all written by Allah. They also believe that their religious duties (the 5 pillars) have exceeded the practices of Christian which doesn’t seem to be abiding.

Only my two cents.

Well you certainly present a better argument than jcforme.

Thanks.

I am not really out to evangelize Muslims. I don’t really have that ‘gift’, but I find that our own people know so very little about Muhammad, or Islam’s texts. When I get posts like ‘Muhammad was a good guy’ that really is pathetic. Then I just want them to show me their source. And all I got was bashing from them. Talk about angry! Basically, they had no source to show me. They get an idea in their head and that is that.

And I understand why most threads digress to bashing Islam. I have been studying it for well over 10 years now and it isn’t much of a religion. It is a deen or spelled din with a tic over the i. The religious part of Islam is so minor compared to the rest of it. But that is the show of it all when they are in their ‘Meccan phase’.

I still stand by post #21. Propoganda is hateful and the truth is not.

 

[elwill]

Jesus: “Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” Luke 23:34. (said while dying on the cross at Calvary after being betrayed and sentenced to die for no legitimate reason).

Muhammad: “May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of the prophets.” Bukhari, Vol. 1, #427 [Muhammad had been poisoned years earlier by a Jewish woman whose husband was killed by the Muslims and the poison had slowly worked its effect. He said this while dying in the arms of his wife Aisha].

it’s the same prayer which mohammed (pbuh) prayed with after his battle in Uhud in The Most Awkward Hour in the Messenger’s Life

‘Utbah bin Abi Waqqas pelted him with stones. One of the stones fell on his face. His lower right incisor Ruba‘iya (i.e. the tooth that is between a canine and a front tooth) was injured. His lower lip was wounded. He was also attacked by ‘Abdullah bin Shihab Az-Zuhri who cleaved his forehead. ‘Abdullah bin Qami’a (Qami’a means ‘a humiliated woman’), who was an obstinate strong horseman, struck him violently on his shoulder with his sword; and that stroke hurt the Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] for over a month — though it was not strong enough to break his two armours. He dealt a heavy blow on his cheek. It was so strong that two rings of his iron-ringed helmet penetrated into his holy cheek. “Take this stroke from me, I am Ibn Qami’a.” He said while striking the Messenger with his sword. The Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] replied — while he was wiping the blood flowing on his face: “I implore Allâh to humiliate you.”
[Fath Al-Bari 7/373, 366] (i.e. Aqma’aka Allâh).

In Al-Bukhâri it is stated his incisor broke, his head was cleaved, and that he started wiping the blood off it and saying: “(I wonder) how can people who cut the face of their Prophet [pbuh] and break the incisor of his — he who calls them to worship Allâh. How can such people thrive or be successful?” About that incident, Allâh, Glory is to Him, sent down a Qur’ânic verse saying:
“Not for you (O Muhammad [pbuh] but for Allâh) is the decision; whether He turns in mercy to (pardons) them or punishes them; verily, they are the Zâlimûn (polytheists, disobedients, and wrong-doers).” [Al-Qur’an 3:128[/COLOR]
At-Tabarani states that the Prophet [pbuh] said: “Allâh’s Wrath is great on those who besmear the face of His Messenger,” observed silence for a short while and then resumed saying:

"O Allâh, forgive my people for they have no knowledge."

+++++++++++++++++

Jesus: John 8:46 - “Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth why don’t you believe me?” Also note 2 Cor. 5:21, 1 John 3:5, Heb. 4:15

Muhammad never said he was sinless, so I won’t go into detail here. I got to give him a plus here.

in the first day of declaring the massage
The Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] ascended Mount As-Safa and started to call: “O Bani Fahr! O Bani ‘Adi (two septs of Quraish).” Many people gathered and those who couldn’t, sent somebody to report to them. Abu Lahab was also present. The Prophet [pbuh] said: “**You see, if I were to tell you that there were some horsemen in the valley planning to raid you, will you believe me?” They said: “Yes, we have never experienced any lie from you.” **
He said: “I am a warner to you before a severe torment.” Abu Lahab promptly replied: “Perish you all the day! Have you summoned us for such a thing?”

+++++++++++++++++

Jesus: But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil, and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:44-48)

Muhammad: Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given [Christians and Jews] as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand and they be humbled. Quran 9:29

“God does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes – from dealing kindly and justly with them. Indeed, God loves those who act justly.
God only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion – (forbids) that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.” (Qur’an 60:8-9)

COLOR=“DarkRed”]In Makkah, his people inflicted him with every kind of suffering, eventually forcing him to emigrate to Madinah, and then waged war on him for five years. However, when he conquered Makkah without bloodshed in the twenty-first year of his Prophethood, he asked the Makkan unbelievers who were awaiting his decision about them: “How do you expect me to treat you?” They responded unanimously: “You are a noble one, the son of a noble one.” He announced to them his decision:
“You may go free! No reproach this day shall be on you; may God forgive you.”

 

[Monica4316]

I think the things Muhammad said, were all very human… corresponding to human nature. (both good and bad).

The things that Jesus said, and did, - you can tell it’s by the Holy Spirit.

 

[algebra]

if you think Mohammed taught many good things too, then please list them.

Mohammed taught to love, worship and fear God.

To be thankful to God for His bounty no matter what you are going through, hardship is a test from God.

To be charitable in word and deed, to give to the poor.

The obligation to help those that are less fortunate than you are, first other muslims, and then non-muslims.

Interestingly enough, the use of the word “too” seems to imply that you agree that Mohammed taught bad things. Is that correct?

Yes, Mohammed being only human and not guided by the Holy Spirit acted on his human nature.

I should know, I am married to a muslimah.

By and large, a well intentioned man (for his time and place), but definitely categorically not a prophet.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

Well you certainly present a better argument than jcforme.

Thanks.

I am not really out to evangelize Muslims. Propoganda is hateful and the truth is not.

#1 is too bad… #2 Is a … Well instead of calling is a Fraudian slip well call it a Goeblian Trick…

 

[hamba2han]

This whole discussion boils down to what is considered ‘good’ and what is considered ‘evil’ according to the moral guidelines which we believe in and follow.

This is a reminder both to myself and also to everyone here:

For Muslims, the Truth comes only from Allah and is therefore good and conversely falsehood is evil.

Whereas the Christian approach towards the Truth would be → “good” must be the Truth and “evil” must be falsehood.

Unfortunately, Christians determine what is ‘good’ and what is ‘evil’ by allowing the Church to decide for them.

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). … Al-Qur’an, 009.031

Always remember folks that ONLY the Master of the Day of Judgment can save us from the Hell-fire, NOT the Magisterium of the Church.

Therefore, when it comes to the enormously important matter of saving our own souls, shouldn’t we be listening to our Creator alone and no one else?

And how do we listen to Him alone?.. For Muslims, this is actually not difficult at all because we just need to read the ‘Message’ that he has sent down to all of humankind.

However for Christians, I would suggest that they first decide on matters of morality by referring to the teachings found in the Bible… and by doing this, God-willing, they will quickly realise that there is NOTHING that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did which can be considered immoral according to the teachings of the Bible.

Christians should NOT decide on matters of morality by referring only to what the Church is telling them and which is often completely at odds with the moral teachings taught in the Bible.

 

[Sam_777]

Unfortunately, Christians determine what is ‘good’ and what is ‘evil’ by allowing the Church to decide for them.

well… in Islam there is the same concept, allowing the clerics committee (and sometimes individual clerics) to issue “Fatwas” to determine good from bad.

 

[RockyRoad]

Mohammed was not a bad man for his time and place./QUOTE]

Does this mean that when and where you live determines whether you are good or bad? Murdering innocent people is okay for 600AD…or is it just okay for the culture that moe came from?

 

[RockyRoad]

This whole discussion boils down to what is considered ‘good’ and what is considered ‘evil’ according to the moral guidelines which we believe in and follow.

This is a reminder both to myself and also to everyone here:

For Muslims, the Truth comes only from Allah and is therefore good and conversely falsehood is evil.

Whereas the Christian approach towards the Truth would be → “good” must be the Truth and “evil” must be falsehood.

Unfortunately, Christians determine what is ‘good’ and what is ‘evil’ by allowing the Church to decide for them.

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). … Al-Qur’an, 009.031

Always remember folks that ONLY the Master of the Day of Judgment can save us from the Hell-fire, NOT the Magisterium of the Church.

Therefore, when it comes to the enormously important matter of saving our own souls, shouldn’t we be listening to our Creator alone and no one else?

And how do we listen to Him alone?.. For Muslims, this is actually not difficult at all because we just need to read the ‘Message’ that he has sent down to all of humankind.

However for Christians, I would suggest that they first decide on matters of morality by referring to the teachings found in the Bible… and by doing this, God-willing, they will quickly realise that there is NOTHING that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did which can be considered immoral according to the teachings of the Bible.

Christians should NOT decide on matters of morality by referring only to what the Church is telling them and which is often completely at odds with the moral teachings taught in the Bible.

We don’t decide what is good or bad by what a church teaches…we know what is good or bad by what the Word Made Flesh…The Great I Am…the Son of God…Jesus Christ teaches.

How can moe have peace when he caused so much hate and violence?

 

[hamba2han]

well… in Islam there is the same concept, allowing the clerics committee (and sometimes individual clerics) to issue “Fatwas” to determine good from bad.

Any fatwa issued MUST be in accordance with the Qur’an and the Sunnah in order for it to stand a chance of being accepted.

A “fatwa” which does not meet this requirement will immediately be rejected by knowledgeable Muslims.

 

[RockyRoad]

Any fatwa issued MUST be in accordance with the Qur’an and the Sunnah in order for it to stand a chance of being accepted.

A “fatwa” which does not meet this requirement will immediately be rejected by knowledgeable Muslims.

But we’ve already determined that the koran preaches violence and hate…just as m lived.

 

[Sam_777]

Any fatwa issued MUST be in accordance with the Qur’an and the Sunnah in order for it to stand a chance of being accepted.

The same thing applies to the catechism of the Church which should be in accordance with the Bible…

 

[algebra]

they will quickly realise that there is NOTHING that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did which can be considered immoral according to the teachings of the Bible.

Not true at all.

The taking of safiyah for a wife would be considered immoral and offensive by any standards, even those of that time.

 

[algebra]

Does this mean that when and where you live determines whether you are good or bad?

Absolute goodness is only the domain of an omnipotent, omniscient entity.

Murdering innocent people is okay for 600AD…or is it just okay for the culture that moe came from?

Who murdered “innocent” people?

 

[RockyRoad]

Absolute goodness is only the domain of an omnipotent, omniscient entity.

Who murdered “innocent” people?

ummmm…Mohammad.

hundreds of Jews and Christians.

 

[hamba2han]

For anyone who doubts the truth of the Qur’anic verse which I have quoted which states that Christians have made their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God Almighty, then the following is just one example of how they have followed their religious leaders in declaring something which is ‘bad’ in the eyes of the Lord into something which the Church has permitted i.e. something which is totally at odds with what was taught and practiced by Prophet Jesus (pbuh):

Pork

Jesus did not eat pork. He followed the laws of Moses and he did not eat pork. In Leviticus 11:7-8, “7 And the swine, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. 8Of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch; they are unclean to you.” Jesus’ only dealing with pigs was his permission to the unclean spirits which were possessing a man to enter them. When they entered the herd of pigs, they ran into the water and drowned. However, most people who call themselves Christians today not only eat pork, they love it so much that they have made pigs the subject of nursery rhymes [e.g. This little piggy went to market…] and children’s stories [e.g. The Three Little Pigs]. Porky Pig is a very popular cartoon character and recently a full-length feature movie was made about a pig called “Babe”. Thus, it may be said that those who call themselves followers of Christ are not in fact following the way of Christ.

        In Islamic law, the prohibition of pork and its products has been strictly maintained from the time of Prophet Muhammad (e) until today. In the Qur’aan, Chapter al-Baqarah (2):173, God says:

}إِنَّمَا حَرَّمَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْمَيْتَةَ وَالدَّمَ وَلَحْمَ الْخِنْزِيرِ وَمَا أُهِلَّ بِهِ لِغَيْرِ اللهِ فَمَنِ اضْطُرَّ غَيْرَ بَاغٍ وَلاَ عَادٍ فَلاَ إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ إِنَّ اللهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ {

“He has only forbidden you animals which die of themselves, blood, swine and animals sacrificed for others besides Allaah. But if one is forced by necessity and not wilful disobedience nor transgression, then there is no sin on him. Truly, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

Blood

Jesus also did not eat anything containing blood, nor did he eat blood. God is recorded as having instructed Prophet Moses in the Torah, Deuteronomy 12:16, “Only you shall not eat the blood; you shall pour it upon the earth like water,” and in Leviticus 19:26, “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not practice augury or witchcraft.” This prohibition has been preserved in the final revelation in Chapter al-An‘aam (6):145 until today:

} قُلْ لاَّ أَجِدُ فِي مَا أُحِيَ إِلَىَّ مُحَرَّمًا عَلَى طَاعِمٍ يَطْعَمُهُ إِلاَّ أَنْ يَكُونَ مَيْتَةً أَوْ دَمًا مَسْفُوحًا أَوْ لَحْمَ خِنْزِيرٍ فَإِنَّهُ رِجْسٌ {

“Say (O Muhammad): I do not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat, except for animals which die of themselves, flowing blood and swine flesh, for they are indeed impure.”

Consequently, particular rites of slaughter were prescribed by God for all the nations to whom prophets were sent, in order to ensure that most of the blood was effectively removed from the slaughtered animals and to remind human beings of God’s bounties. The Qur’aan refers to these instructions in chapter al-Hajj (22):34 as follows:

} وَ لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ جَعَلْنَا مَنْسَكًا لِيَذْكُرُواْ اسْمَ اللهِ عَلَى مَا رَزَقَهُمْ مِنْ بَهِيمَةِ اْلأَنْعَامِ {

“For every nation I have appointed rites of slaughter in order that they may mention Allaah’s name over the cattle He has provided them.”

Jesus and his early followers observed the proper method of slaughter by mentioning God’s name and cutting the jugular veins of the animals while they were living to allow the heart to pump out the blood. However, Christians today do NOT attach much importance to proper slaughter methods, as prescribed by God i.e. they have indeed made the rulings of the Church superior to the teachings of the Bible with regard to the ‘evil’ in the eyes of God Almighty, of consuming pork and blood.

Muslims follow Jesus (pbuh) by neither eating pork nor blood.

 

[algebra]

ummmm…Mohammad.

hundreds of Jews and Christians.

Who are these hundreds of Jews and Christians???

Mohammed killed many Jews - as to their innocence - I cannot speak for that.

 

[hamba2han]

Prophet Moses (pbuh) waged Jihad to punish people who were guilty of deliberately denying the Truth. A study of the Old Testament shows that the Jihad he waged was of two forms. One form of Jihad was that nations who subscribed to polytheism were to be put to death in all cases, while another form was that some nations were spared in case they agreed to remain subservient.

The following verses depict the first form of Jihad:

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations – the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you – and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. … (Deuteronomy 7:1-5)

The following verses depict the second form of Jihad:

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labour and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, and children, the livestock and everything else in the city you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. … (Deuteronomy, 20:10-15)

A Prophet Like Unto Moses
Also, in the Bible, in Deutoronomny, we have the words of Moses who reports that God told him that He would raise up a prophet from AMONG THE BROTHERS OF THE ISRAELITES, like Moses.

"And the Lord said onto me, they have well spoken that which they have spoken, I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." … (Deuteronomy 18:17-18)

And so then dear Christian friends → Did Jesus (pbuh) condemn and disassociated himself from the concept of Jihad which was practiced by Moses (pbuh)?

If you say ‘YES’, then this alone would disqualify him from being the promised “Prophet like unto Moses”, don’t you agree?

On the other hand, if your answer is ‘NO’, then is there a rational reason why you should be disparaging against the Jihad waged by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?

 

[algebra]

HambaKhan,

Moses did not make war on polytheists.

Simply put, it was a land grab for the jews, something that God promised them.

In that sense Moses was not a king in the same manner as Mohammed.

Moses did not have a kingdom, did not levy taxes, he did not command people (the tribes had their own leaders, and each tribe followed its own leader)

In that sense Mohammed was very much a king, and not at all a prophet.

Mohammed ruled a kingdom of this world.

 

[hamba2han]

HambaKhan,

Moses did not make war on polytheists.

Simply put, it was a land grab for the jews, something that God promised them.

In that sense Moses was not a king in the same manner as Mohammed.

Moses did not have a kingdom, did not levy taxes, he did not command people (the tribes had their own leaders, and each tribe followed its own leader)

In that sense Mohammed was very much a king, and not at all a prophet.

Mohammed ruled a kingdom of this world.

You say that Moses (pbuh) did not make war on polytheists??

Kindly refer back to Deuteronomy 7:1-5 and pay particular attention to the part at the end which I will highlight:

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations – the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you – and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire.

If they were not polytheists, then what faith were they practicing?