Jesus vs Muhammad

[blazerdave]

Let me say something here, for whatever good it might do. The Holy Ghost, also called the Holy Spirit, is God. He is as much God as the Father and the Son. It is possible that the Muslim posters here do not fully appreciate that we worship and revere the Spirit. He guides his Church in all truth, he brings grace through the Sacraments, and he illumines the minds of Christians to be able to understand God’s will and God’s truth. I disagree with the idea that only Catholics are guided by the Holy Spirit, because I believe that the Spirit works in and guides all true Christians. That doesn’t mean that all are right, or that all have “part” of the truth; it simply means that when Baptized Christians pray for His guidance, I cannot imagine that He ignores all non-Catholics. So I would say to elwill and to Planten that yes, the Holy Spirit guides us. Jesus said that he would. The Spirit searches the mind of the Father. I cannot imagine a better guide.

However, when evil priests, or twisted heretics, or any other wolves in sheep’s clothing, infiltrate the Church and commit terrible sins, the Spirit sees what they do. He opposes it and is grieved by it. He isn’t “guiding them” in their sins. They are doing what they want to do. They are not puppets, therefore He does not always prevent them from following their sinful will and desires. Some of these are weak Christians who fall into temptation. Others are fakes, doing the work of the devil as infiltrators. Such fakes have nothing to do with the Spirit.

And Planten, Jesus certainly did “believe” in the Holy Spirit. They are one God from all eternity!

 

[LittleSoldier]

Irrelevant posts from catholics are no use. Elwill is asking about the churches which are guided by holy ghost. Nobody is replying. Now some one is trying to derail the discussion by any other means.

Are you referring to my post (above yours)? How is it irrelevant? May I please say that I was asked a question and I answered the question? How can this possibly mean I am trying to derail the thread “by any other means”? How am I doing this by answering a question? You say no one is responding to the question. I responded!

It is wrong of the christians (catholics) to say that their church is the only true church or only they have the truth in the whole world. They feel all others are misguided. That is not a fair statement.
The catholics should reaalise that their beliefs are not fair. Muslims also believe in the holy Spirit.

So do you want me to lie? Why isn’t it fair? If it’s true, it’s true. I’m sorry you’re offended, but I am going to defend my faith. Protestant Christians believe in the Holy Spirit, too. That doesn’t mean their churches are the one True Church.

Would you be happier if I said the Catholic Church and Islam are the only true faiths in the world? Is that what you want? Well, I am very sorry (honestly) but the Catholic Church is the only true Church.

Jesus believed in Holy Spirit. he was supported (Aided) by the holy spirit. He foretold of the coming of the holy spirit after him. See chapter 16 of John. That meant some one will come after Jesus and he will be supported (guided, aided) by the Holy spirit. But christians misinterpretted the whole meaning of what Jesus told them.

And how did Christians “misinterpret” the whole meaning of what Jesus told them? Please tell me how Christians interpret John 16 and why the way they interpret it is wrong.

Jesus admitted that he had not completed his mission. He had many things to say. But could not do. he gave hope to his followers of another one to come after him. Moses also did not complete his mission. Moses also told of the coming of another prophet, the like of Moses, after him. The christians are trying to put a blanket on all the true things that were told to them. So they will remain misguided.

Completely illogical. Please provide supporting documentation. Just saying something doesn’t make it true.

We have no harm in leaving the christians in the state in which they are happy. They will have to answer to God for everything said and done in the world of religions. We Muslims need not do anything about the beliefs of christians. There is no compulsion in religions. We are satisfied and happy about whatever is left of the present day bible. We love Jesus and mary. We love all the disciples of Jesus.

But christians demand that the whole world take Jesus as a God Almighty. That will never happen. Niether the Jews, nor the Hiondus or any other faith people will take Jesus as a God. At present it is only Muslims who admit jesus as a decent man of God. But the christians are not happy about it. And themselves (christians) do not say a word of respect for Muhammad. I am sure they are doing wrong.

Christians do not “demand” the whole world take Jesus as God. It would be wonderful if it happened, but it is not a “demand.”

I’m sorry, but with all due respect, you are wrong and your understanding of Christianity and Catholicism is rudimentary at best.

*Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

St. Francis, please pray for all unwanted and hurt animals.

Jesus, I love you! Please bestow on me the gift of fatih.*

 

[planten]

Let me say something here, for whatever good it might do. **The Holy Ghost, also called the Holy Spirit, is God. He is as much God as the Father and the Son. It is possible that the Muslim posters here do not fully appreciate that we worship and revere the Spirit. **He guides his Church in all truth, he brings grace through the Sacraments, and he illumines the minds of Christians to be able to understand God’s will and God’s truth. I disagree with the idea that only Catholics are guided by the Holy Spirit, because I believe that the Spirit works in and guides all true Christians. That doesn’t mean that all are right, or that all have “part” of the truth; it simply means that when Baptized Christians pray for His guidance, I cannot imagine that He ignores all non-Catholics. So I would say to elwill and to Planten that yes, the Holy Spirit guides us. Jesus said that he would. The Spirit searches the mind of the Father. I cannot imagine a better guide.

However, when evil priests, or twisted heretics, or any other wolves in sheep’s clothing, infiltrate the Church and commit terrible sins, the Spirit sees what they do. He opposes it and is grieved by it. He isn’t “guiding them” in their sins. They are doing what they want to do. They are not puppets, therefore He does not always prevent them from following their sinful will and desires. Some of these are weak Christians who fall into temptation. Others are fakes, doing the work of the devil as infiltrators. Such fakes have nothing to do with the Spirit.

And Planten, Jesus certainly did “believe” in the Holy Spirit. They are one God from all eternity!

blazerdave (BD) you have few Gods. But then you revert back quickly to One God too. That is your problem. We muslims do not admit the Holy Spirit as God even though it is from God. Still we consider that the holy Spirit is an angel aND A SERVANT OF God.

Same for Jesus. He is also a man of God and a servant of God.

I have problem with the many words that Catholics use, such as the one you have mentioned above in last line i.e. the word “One”. If you mean one in substannce then I do not agree with you. If you mean One in agreement and One in purpose, I agree with you.

Jesus also said “I and Father are One.” That was surely symbolic speech only, not to be taken literally. We Muslims also believe that Jesus and God Almighty were One. I hope you will not oppose me.

 

[planten]

The topic is Jesus vs Muhammad. There is no need to pit one man of God against another. We Muslims do not differentiate between any messenger of God. Muhammad was a messenger with a message from God. So was Jesus. Jesus said that he was sent (see bibleNT). That means he was a rasool i.e. a messenger.

The catholics have Jesus as a man and as a son of man and as a god and as a son of God and as a god himself and as a prophet of God. We Muslimscannot understand all those things (various status given to Jesus).

I can say that Muhammad and Jesus are One. There is no need of Jesus vs Muhammad. It is wrong topic.

 

[blazerdave]

The way Christians speak of God comes from the way He reveals Himself in the Bible - both Old and New Testaments. That is why there are confusing statements. But they are not confusing because they are wrong; rather, they are difficult because God Himself is infinite. He is everywhere, He knows all, He is unchanging and all-powerful. He is very difficult to describe with our limited minds and languages. Throughout the Bible, we see the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit glorifying each other. And at the same time, we see that there is One God who demands worship. Not three. God is as much three as He is one. He is as much one as He is three. We cannot understand it, because He is different from men and from angels. But we believe it, because He revealed Himself in that way. He can be a pillar of cloud and fire. He can speak from a bush that burns but does not burn up. He can speak from a storm on a mountain. He can appear to Joshua as the Commander of Heaven’s Army. And all of these things reveal the One-in-Three and Three-in-One God. It is too difficult to understand, but it is too glorious for words.

That is why the mystery of the Incarnation is so amazing. God had to die in our place, but He couldn’t die; so He - Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity - took on flesh and became fully God and fully Man, just as the Trinity is fully Three and fully One. Jesus was “sent” to earth, and he also chose to come to the earth that he had made. Both are true. The Spirit was sent to earth, and yet he was hovering over the earth at the beginning of time. Jesus and the Father and the Spirit are everywhere at once, and are yet at the same time One God Who is everywhere. I know that it is different from what you believe, but we believe these things because the Bible indicates that all of them are simultaneously true! We don’t try to figure them out, because that is not our calling. We are called to believe.

 

[seraphime2008]

blazerdave (BD) you have few Gods. But then you revert back quickly to One God too. That is your problem. We muslims do not admit the Holy Spirit as God even though it is from God. Still we consider that the holy Spirit is an angel aND A SERVANT OF God.

Same for Jesus. He is also a man of God and a servant of God.

I have problem with the many words that Catholics use, such as the one you have mentioned above in last line i.e. the word “One”. If you mean one in substannce then I do not agree with you. If you mean One in agreement and One in purpose, I agree with you.

Jesus also said “I and Father are One.” That was surely symbolic speech only, not to be taken literally. We Muslims also believe that Jesus and God Almighty were One. I hope you will not oppose me.

I take that you don’t read the link that I gave you giving evidence that Jesus is God based on verses/scriptures taken from the OT and NT, because God and Jesus share the same characteristics. Now, let me repeat to you this link, if you’re sincere in your effort of knowing the truth, this won’t be a threat to you.

godandscience.org/ppt/Atheist_Myths2.html

Now, perhaps you’re too lazy to treat your mind, here’ some excerpt:
**Who is Omnipotent? **
God as in 1 Chronicles 29 : 11:
11Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.
Jesus as in Philippians 3:20-21:
20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Who is omnipresent?
**God **as in Proverbs 15:3:
3The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
**Jesus ** as in 2 Corinthians 2:14 :
14Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

Who is the Lord of the Sabbath?
God as in Genesis 2:3
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
**Jesus as in Mattew 12: 8
8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
**
Who is the only creator?
God as in Isaiah 44 : 24:
24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
**Jesus **as in John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Who will judge between the sheep and the goats?
God as in Ezekiel 34:17
17And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.
Jesus as in Matthew 25 : 31-33
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
**
Who sent the Prophets?**
**God **as in Jeremiah 7 : 25:
25Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:
Jesus as in Matthew 23 : 34:
(Jesus said) 34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

 

[seraphime2008]

Continued from above:
**
Who is coming in Glory?
God** as in Isaiah 40 : 5
5And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Jesus as in Matthew 24 : 30
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Who is our Father?
**God **as in Isaiah 63 : 16
16Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting
Jesus as in Isaiah 9 : 6:
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Who is the stone of Stumbling?
God as in Isaiah 8 : 13-15
13Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
Jesus as in 1 Peter 2:8
8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
**
Who gives rewards to man?
God **as in Isaiah 40 : 10:
10Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
**Jesus **as in Matthew 16 : 27
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
**
Who is eternal?
God **as in Genesis 21 : 33:
33And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.
**Jesus **as in Micah 5 : 2:
2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Who gives power and authority to man?
God as in Psalm 68 : 35:
35O God, thou art terrible out of thy holy places: the God of Israel is he that giveth strength and power unto his people. Blessed be God.
**Jesus **as in Luke 9 : 1
9 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases
**
Who forgives sin?
God **as in 2 Chronicles 7 : 14
14If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Jesus as in Matthew 9 : 6:
6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

**Who searches for the lost sheep of Israel?
God **as in Ezekiel 34 : 11-14
11For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
13And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
14I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
Jesus as in Matthew 15 : 24:
24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

**Who is in charge of the angels?
God **as in Psalm 103: 20
20Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.
Jesus as in 2 Thessalonians 1 : 7
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

**Who gives us rest?
God **as in Exodus 33: 14
14And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
**Jesus **as in Matthew 11 : 28
28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

See the complete reference in the link I gave above.

 

[elwill]

The Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church is the one True Church. We know this because it was founded by Jesus. Every other Christian church split off from the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is the *only *Church that is guided by the Holy Spirit. Other Christians may believe their churches are guided by the Holy Spirit, but they are wrong.

This is part of what I posted in #367:

"Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that the Bible does not end. The true “rule of faith”—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly.

"In the Second Vatican Council’s document on divine revelation, Dei Verbum (Latin: “The Word of God”), the relationship between Tradition and Scripture is explained: "Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

"Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence."

catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp [bolding added]

If you have problems understanding this because of the language used, please let me know and I will try to word it so you can understand.

But the major point it is making is that both sacred Scripture (the Bible) and sacred Tradition are equally important. We know that the Bible is the Word of God. We also know that it is not the only source for the Word of God. There is also sacred Tradition. If there were not, how would we know what to do when new technology, such as cloning of human beings, appears? That isn’t in the Bible, so what do we do? Do we just accept it as being good, or do we all make up our own minds about it? No. The Truth is revealed to the Catholic Church by the Holy Spirit. This is sacred Tradition.

Peace to you.

*Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

St. Francis, please pray for all unwanted and hurt animals.

Jesus, I love you! Please bestow upon me the gift of faith.*

thank you very much , brother
then you are saying to me that catholic church is the one which be guided by holy ghost .

can you imagine my position if every church/sect said to me that they be guided by holy spirit ?

for someone search the truth , proclaiming that you are guided by holy ghost isn’t enough , that’s why i consider answering the questions with this statment " church is guided by holy ghost " have no sense , it’s untracable and untestable

brother , may be i don’t believe in the bible to be purely word of God . but when i explore christiainity i expect the answers to be from the bible ( physical clues )
my problem is that , once the answers isn’t exist in the bible you hold " the holy spirit guidence " to be your answer

i hope you understand my position , i’m not trying to disqualify your relegion by any means

peace

 

[dzheremi]

thank you very much , brother
then you are saying to me that catholic church is the one which be guided by holy ghost .

can you imagine my position if every church/sect said to me that they be guided by holy spirit ?

And indeed they do! Ask a Catholic, and they will tell you that the Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, ask an Eastern Orthodox and they will tell you that the Eastern Orthodox will tell you that the Eastern Orthodox Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, etc.

for someone search the truth , proclaiming that you are guided by holy ghost isn’t enough , that’s why i consider answering the questions with this statment " church is guided by holy ghost " have no sense , it’s untracable and untestable

As opposed to what, exactly? How is this any different than the Islamic claim that Muhammad was given his revelations by Allah, which is likewise “untraceable” (outside of the Qur’an and the other Islamic texts of course, which as I said in a previous post puts your “evidence” at roughly the same level as ours, as the Holy Spirit is likewise written of in the Holy Bible and writings of the early church fathers), and definitely untestable.

brother , may be i don’t believe in the bible to be purely word of God . but when i explore christiainity i expect the answers to be from the bible ( physical clues )
my problem is that , once the answers isn’t exist in the bible you hold " the holy spirit guidence " to be your answer

Then you are on the wrong board. Go be a “sola scriptura” Protestant somewhere else, Elwill. The historic, Apostolic churches have ALWAYS believed in tradition not explicitly contained in the Bible, as we recognize the Bible as part of tradition, not something outside it or at odds with it. Really, it cannot be any other way, because the canonization of the Bible didn’t happen immediately. I tell you, the Assyrians, Copts, and others did not spontaneously come to believe upon finding the Bible in a cave somewhere. Yet these were some of the most effective evangelizers in history. The Copts’ asceticism lit the fire of Christian monasticism that spread throughout the world. The Assyrians’ religious influence spread as far east as China. This was not necessarily without ANY part of the Bible, but the point is that this is not the stumbling block to us that it is to you.

 

[elwill]

As opposed to what, exactly? How is this any different than the Islamic claim that Muhammad was given his revelations by Allah, which is likewise “untraceable” (outside of the Qur’an and the other Islamic texts of course, which as I said in a previous post puts your “evidence” at roughly the same level as ours, as the Holy Spirit is likewise written of in the Holy Bible and writings of the early church fathers), and definitely untestable.

i didn’t refer to bible to be untracable , i refered to holy ghost

 

[LittleSoldier]

blazerdave (BD) you have few Gods. But then you revert back quickly to One God too. That is your problem. We muslims do not admit the Holy Spirit as God even though it is from God. Still we consider that the holy Spirit is an angel aND A SERVANT OF God.

Same for Jesus. He is also a man of God and a servant of God.

I have problem with the many words that Catholics use, such as the one you have mentioned above in last line i.e. the word “One”. If you mean one in substannce then I do not agree with you. If you mean One in agreement and One in purpose, I agree with you.

Jesus also said “I and Father are One.” That was surely symbolic speech only, not to be taken literally. We Muslims also believe that Jesus and God Almighty were One. I hope you will not oppose me.

Why do you take Jesus’ words as “surely symbolic?” Why wouldn’t He be telling the absolute truth? What is your justification for assuming it is only symbolic? If Jesus told me He loves me, do you believe I should think that what he is saying is surely symbolic?

When Jesus said “I and the Father are One” (and I would appreciate a reference, not just your say-so) what He said is to be taken literally, as Truth. It is not symbolic. It is Truth.

There is one God. Only one God. God is God the Father. God is Jesus. God is the Holy Spirit. They are not separate Gods. They are one God in three. It is a difficult concept to understand because we are only human. But because it is difficult to understand does not mean it is not true.

 

[LittleSoldier]

dzheremi;6528241:

As opposed to what, exactly? How is this any different than the Islamic claim that Muhammad was given his revelations by Allah, which is likewise “untraceable” (outside of the Qur’an and the other Islamic texts of course, which as I said in a previous post puts your “evidence” at roughly the same level as ours, as the Holy Spirit is likewise written of in the Holy Bible and writings of the early church fathers), and definitely untestable.

i didn’t refer to bible to be untracable , i refered to holy ghost

Well then, I suppose you should tell the “prophets” that they are going about it all wrong and should be performing miracles in order to convince people who are Doubting Thomas’s. Really, with all due respect (and I am trying to be charitable here with other children of God), it is rather presumptuous to be deciding what “prophets” should be doing.

You say you can pick up the Bible and verify if these words are traceable. Do you actually do this? I’m asking because I provided a lot of Bible references and I suspect that no Muslim in this thread has checked out one of them.

What gives you the right to decide what “prophets” should do? Don’t you trust in them? After all, aren’t they showing God’s Truth? Isn’t God important to you? What is your problem with faith?

I am very confused by what you mean by “prophets.” If you’re referring to the Holy Spirit and Jesus, they are not prophets. They are God. The Holy Spirit is God.

I’m not going to tell the Holy Spirit or Jesus that (1) they are prophets and not God; and (2) they aren’t doing their jobs very well.

Do you see the problem with your reasoning?

Peace to all people who are searching for Truth.

Glory and Honor and Praise to God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit!

 

[LittleSoldier]

The topic is Jesus vs Muhammad. There is no need to pit one man of God against another. We Muslims do not differentiate between any messenger of God. Muhammad was a messenger with a message from God. So was Jesus. Jesus said that he was sent (see bibleNT). That means he was a rasool i.e. a messenger.

The catholics have Jesus as a man and as a son of man and as a god and as a son of God and as a god himself and as a prophet of God. We Muslimscannot understand all those things (various status given to Jesus).

I can say that Muhammad and Jesus are One. There is no need of Jesus vs Muhammad. It is wrong topic.

Let me present the Christian view of God:

There is one God. God is composed of three persons (not persons like you or me, but parts of one God).

There is God the Father.
There is God the Son (Jesus) who became God made in the flesh of man (what we call “God Incarnate”- the Word made flesh).
There is God the Holy Spirit.

These are all one God, not three. There is only one God. But, as God is all-powerful, who are we as mere mortal human beings on earth to decide we don’t like the way God is because we don’t understand it.

It would be so easy, in a way, for the Catholic Church to say: "There is one God. No Jesus, no Holy Spirit, no God the Father. But that really wouldn’t be easy because it would be a lie.

I am going to present an analogy which might help you understand the Christian view of God. Water is one thing, right? It’s just one thing. It’s chemical composition is H2O. That NEVER changes.

But water can be in the form of a liquid, such as in a river, or it can be in the form of a gas, such as in steam, or it can be in the form of a solid, such as ice.

Liquid, gas, solid. They are all water.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit. They are all God.

I hope this helps you understand how we see God.

Peace to you.

 

[LittleSoldier]

thank you very much , brother
then you are saying to me that catholic church is the one which be guided by holy ghost .

can you imagine my position if every church/sect said to me that they be guided by holy spirit ?

for someone search the truth , proclaiming that you are guided by holy ghost isn’t enough , that’s why i consider answering the questions with this statment " church is guided by holy ghost " have no sense , it’s untracable and untestable

brother , may be i don’t believe in the bible to be purely word of God . but when i explore christiainity i expect the answers to be from the bible ( physical clues )
my problem is that , once the answers isn’t exist in the bible you hold " the holy spirit guidence " to be your answer

i hope you understand my position , i’m not trying to disqualify your relegion by any means

peace

Thank you for your kind response.

I’m sure that every “sect” will claim it is guided by the Holy Spirit. But only the Catholic Church is really guided by the Holy Spirit because the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and He promised us that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” - what she teaches was true when Jesus founded His Church and what she teaches is true today. (Catholics call the Church “she” as a term of respect).

The Bible is the Word of God. But it’s not the only place to find the Word of God. Some Christians believe the Bible is the only place. But Catholics rely on more than the Bible.

There was no Bible when Jesus was here on earth. There was no Bible for hundreds of years, and really there was no Bible that people can easily find and pick up and read until about 400 years ago. That’s a long time after Jesus left the earth (which was 2,000 years ago). One of the reasons there was no Bible is that it is a collection of books and somebody or group of people needed to put it together. The people that did so were Catholics.

But that wasn’t the only problem. Most people in the world couldn’t read and didn’t have enough money to buy a Bible, which was very expensive back then. Then the printing press was invented and things got a little better. Now the pages of the Bible could be printed.

Also, please remember that the books that were put together to form the Bible were in different languages: Hebrew and Greek, mostly. So, these books needed to be translated into all the different languages used in the world. That is quite an undertaking and it is still going on. People who argue about what a particular passage in the Bible means may be using a translation which isn’t quite right. What I mean by that is that (as you know) words and terms in some languages just can’t be translated into other languages. The meaning is somewhat lost in the translation.

So in order to understand the Bible, a person really needs to know Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic (which is the language Jesus spoke). They also need to know history, geography, and a lot of other things.

Most people don’t have the time or the ability to learn all these things. But there are people who do. They understand the Bible well. Those of us who do not understand turn to those who do. They are the experts on the Bible. I trust them to tell me the truth and I believe them. I have never felt that they have lied to me. These people are Catholics.

Learning about Christianity must be very hard. It’s hard for me to learn about Islam. The Bible is the best place to start to learn about Christianity. But eventually you will discover that a lot is left out of the Bible. What about Mary? The Bible doesn’t tell us much about her. There are other examples. Catholics understand that for a long time there was no Bible. There was no Bible when Jesus was on earth. So how do we know that everything Jesus said and did is in the Bible? It isn’t. Jesus taught by speaking. His Apostles taught by speaking and writing. We need to know what Jesus said that was not written down and we need to know what God wants us to do about things that didn’t even exist when Jesus was on earth, like cloning and in-vitro fertilization and computers.

That’s very important to Catholics. We know that the Holy Spirit guides us by providing wisdom. The Holy Spirit guides Catholics today - those experts who know Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic and geography and history. I may “think” the Holy Spirit is guiding me as I read the Bible. I “know” the Holy Spirit is guiding those Catholic experts.

That’s why Catholics use both the Bible and Sacred Tradition (the spoken teachings of Jesus that were not written down) in our faith and why we trust the Church to tell us the truth.

I hope this helps. I’m sorry if some of my posts appear to be unkind. I don’t mean them to be that way. I get frustrated easily and it shows in what I write.

Peace to you!

 

[elwill]

Thank you for your kind response
I hope this helps. I’m sorry if some of my posts appear to be unkind. I don’t mean them to be that way. I get frustrated easily and it shows in what I write.

Peace to you!

off course it help , thank you

but really what is most pleasing to me is to find the discussion just end peacefully and kindly like your post above

i havn’t more questions for now

peace to you

 

[dzheremi]

.

i didn’t refer to bible to be untracable , i refered to holy ghost

with another words , when i ask you " why you believe in so and so according to christianity , you will tell me because jesus said so and so in the bible "
the bible is tracable , i can pick it an verify if these words really written ( regardless of my beliefs toward the bible )

but when your answer is " because holy ghost inspired me with it " , hence this one isn’t tracable
for prophets , they should to come up with miracles for their people so that they can be trusted without tracing

My point is: This is absolutely no different than any other religion in the world. When someone asks you about Islam, you don’t want to say that you are in the wrong sect, right? You would not say “If you want to see ‘true Islam’, look to the Shi’a and the not the Sunni”, would you? This is somewhat similar to the different churches’ views of each other. They might recognize each other as fellow Christians (or not), but only THEIR church is the “true” Church of Christ. That’s the consequence of being in one church and not another.

Regarding the Holy Spirit: We say He IS traceable through the works performed through holy men and women by His power. Again, I fail to see how this is any different than the Islamic position. Is it not the case that Muhammad’s “truth” is borne out in the success of Islam? You would not say this success is anything other than led by God, unless you were a non-Muslim. So again, it is the same thing. You can find accounts of these military and political successes in extra-Qur’anic sources, and you believe in them, just as we can find accounts of our beliefs in the writings of the early church fathers who carried on the teachings of the apostles. We do not stop believing in these things if they are not explicitly found in the Bible. This would not make sense, as the writings of the ECF’s often predate the canonization of the Bible, and what’s more never, ever claim to be scriptural to begin with.

 

[planten]

Seraphime, i did not open that link. I will refer to your own words now:

Now, perhaps you’re too lazy to treat your mind, here’ some excerpt:
Who is Omnipotent?
God as in 1 Chronicles 29 : 11:
11Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.
Jesus as in Philippians 3:20-21:
20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Your correlation is not proper. What is Philipian?? It seems something that is not from Gop and not from Jesus. Please do not show me anything other than that from Jesus himself. You people are drifting into many Lords and prophets beside Jesus whom you have made into a God.

Who is omnipresent?
God as in Proverbs 15:3:
3The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
Jesus as in 2 Corinthians 2:14 :
14Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place

.
Again you have given some unclear words and irrelevant post. What is Corinthian?? It is not Jesus talking and It is not from God too. You are listening to non-prophet persons. Those who have misled you. Please come to Jesus. Present things from Gospels. Even though that is also not exact words of Jesus. But still it could be acceptable.

Who is the Lord of the Sabbath?
God as in Genesis 2:3
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Jesus as in Mattew 12: 8
8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

That is good. Jesus was the lord of the sabath. he had the command in his days and he was the inchage of everything. Sabath was below him. We agree to that. But that doe snot make Jesus as a God. he was a messenger of God. Do you deny that Jesus was a messenger of God??

Who is the only creator?
God as in Isaiah 44 : 24:
24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Jesus as in John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

These are the words of one man, John. The other three gospel writers mathew, Luke and Mark did not know these things. These are not the words of Jesus. These are the words of John who is an unknown person. Some say he was a gentile. What do you say?

Who will judge between the sheep and the goats?
God as in Ezekiel 34:17
17And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.
Jesus as in Matthew 25 : 31-33
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Who sent the Prophets?
God as in Jeremiah 7 : 25:
25Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:
Jesus as in Matthew 23 : 34:
(Jesus said) 34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city

:

That is right. Jesus was the great prophet and he had foretold that in his footsteps, more messengers will come. they will be punished and killed and abused. That was correct. But that does not make Jesus as a God.

 

[planten]

Continued from above:
**
Who is coming in Glory?**
God as in Isaiah 40 : 5
5And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Jesus as in Matthew 24 : 30
30And then shall appear** the sign of the Son of man **in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Seraphime, please see that God is not coming in glory but the son of man will appear. Can you understand? Look for the son of man and Muhammad is the perfect son of man. The sign of the son of man has appeared in the sky in year 1994 A.D. The whole world has seen it.

Who is our Father?
**God **as in Isaiah 63 : 16
16Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting
Jesus as in Isaiah 9 : 6:
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Youa re quoting unrelated material. many children had been born to the Jews. Jesus was not thew only one child. Many sons had been given to the Jews. It was not only jesus. he never had any government on his shoulder even for one day.

His name was never called wonderful. Sgow me from the bibleNT about wonderful jesus. Jesus never counselled at any time from his friends. He was not the mighty God. he was not a father because he never married.

He himself said that he did not bring Peace. He brought fire. he brought sword.

Please why are you talking in wild unkonown terms. Use real words please. I disregard the rest of your post.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Seraphime, i did not open that link. I will refer to your own words now:
Your correlation is not proper. What is Philipian?? It seems something that is not from Gop and not from Jesus. Please do not show me anything other than that from Jesus himself. You people are drifting into many Lords and prophets beside Jesus whom you have made into a God.

Phillippians is a book in the Bible. It is the Word of God.
.

Again you have given some unclear words and irrelevant post. What is Corinthian?? It is not Jesus talking and It is not from God too. You are listening to non-prophet persons. Those who have misled you. Please come to Jesus. Present things from Gospels. Even though that is also not exact words of Jesus. But still it could be acceptable.

Corinthians is a book in the Bible. It is the Word of God.

That is good. Jesus was the lord of the sabath. he had the command in his days and he was the inchage of everything. Sabath was below him. We agree to that. But that doe snot make Jesus as a God. he was a messenger of God. Do you deny that Jesus was a messenger of God??

Jesus IS God.

These are the words of one man, John. The other three gospel writers mathew, Luke and Mark did not know these things. These are not the words of Jesus. These are the words of John who is an unknown person. Some say he was a gentile. What do you say?

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are books in the Bible. It is the Word of God.

Who will judge between the sheep and the goats?
God as in Ezekiel 34:17
17And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.
Jesus as in Matthew 25 : 31-33
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

:

That is right. Jesus was the great prophet and he had foretold that in his footsteps, more messengers will come. they will be punished and killed and abused. That was correct. But that does not make Jesus as a God.

What makes Jesus God is that He is God. What makes God God? God is. God exists. We may not understand but that has no bearing on God being God. It just IS.

Jesus is God.

I will post all the books of the Bible in my next post. I hope this helps. There are a lot of books in the Bible! They are all the Word of God.

Peace and joy to you!

 

[jakasaki]

Phillippians is a book in the Bible. It is the Word of God.
.
Corinthians is a book in the Bible. It is the Word of God.

Jesus IS God.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are books in the Bible. It is the Word of God.

What makes Jesus God is that He is God. What makes God God? God is. God exists. We may not understand but that has no bearing on God being God. It just IS.

Jesus is God.

I will post all the books of the Bible in my next post. I hope this helps. There are a lot of books in the Bible! They are all the Word of God.

Peace and joy to you!

Planten knows all of this. We have covered it with him a bazzilion times. And oh, a word of caution Little Soldier… Do not make your posts, “extra ordinary long” where Planten cannot reply…