Jesus was a good man but his biographers got it wrong?

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Myths can and do develop even while their subjects are still alive. It’s mostly a matter of how fast information is transmitted, and how permanently it can be recorded – neither of which capacities was at an all-time high in first-century Judea. …
Yes, but myths are in conflict with those who actually knew the people. Some people have the idea that i’m really a nice guy, but if they talk to my wife, she might tell them this is a myth! (just kidding). However, if i were to die, and people went around saying i rose from the dead, my wife would be able to put them straight. Now it is evident that someone like Peter, who lived with Jesus every day of the last three years of his life, would put people straight if they started circulating the lie that his good friend and teacher, whom he saw brutally beaten and taken away to be executed, was now walking around visiting him and the others. But this is not what he did. Not long after Jesus’ death, Peter addressed a large crowd in the streets of Jerusalem, saying:

“Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.”

(Acts 1:29-32)
This is no myth, it is either the truth, or the ravings of a lunatic, or a blatant lie.
 
Mir:

If you will at least agree that it is possible that Peter was not telling the truth, i think this leaves us with four possibilities, as i said:

  1. *]He was insane
    *]He was deceived
    *]He knew he was not telling the truth
    *]He knew he was telling the truth
    If you and i examine the evidence and find that 1, 2 or 3 are the truth, then we should do our best to share this with everyone who will listen who believe this lie that turned the world upside down. However, if you and i rule out 1, 2 and 3, that leaves us with only one possibility, which is 4.

    I think we owe it to ourselves, and to all those who might benefit from what our investigation reveals, to look into this carefully and thoughtfully. Don’t you?
 
Myths can and do develop even while their subjects are still alive. It’s mostly a matter of how fast information is transmitted, and how permanently it can be recorded – neither of which capacities was at an all-time high in first-century Judea.
Myths about people who are still alive develop among those who have heard stories, but have never actually met the person.

Peter and the other Apostles lived with Jesus for three years. If he farted, or picked his nose, they knew about it. (They didn’t record whether he did this or not, but they would have known about it.) They were not gazing from afar, or seeing only His public performances. They were with him, day in and day out.
Paul wasn’t even there. How would he know first-hand?
The only thing St. Paul could have known first-hand was whether or not he had seen the Risen Christ at some point after the Crucifixion. He claims that he did - and that this experience changed his life completely, from attacking Christianity to embracing it.
It is perhaps a way of saying ‘the accounts probably don’t match up’ less likely to cause people here to start vomiting up the usual bile, yes. I’m not trying to give anyone a heart attack or severe gastrointestinal problems here, I’m trying to respectfully disagree and say that I consider accounts given in a particular religion’s holy book insufficient ground for proving the historical verity of that same religion. Circular logic will get you nowhere.
We have at least four first-hand witnesses writing books of the New Testament, who all agree on certain basics. They disagree or don’t remember how many women went to the tomb to anoint Jesus. (They were probably still asleep when the women got up to go out, so they would not have counted how many women went.)

What they do remember is that the woman or women who went to do this came back with an astounding story that they had seen Jesus risen from the dead, and that the tomb was open and empty. They recall that they thought the women were delusional. Later, they themselves saw Jesus - he came through a wall, and started eating dinner with them. He did that more than once - how many times exactly, again, they don’t remember, but they all recount more than one time.

You only need two witnesses for a court case, and they don’t have to agree on every detail. All they have to agree is on the basic incident itself, and “Yeah, that was the guy - the one sitting in the prisoner’s dock.” In fact, they will throw the testimony of the witnesses out, if the witnesses agree on too many things, because people naturally perceive different things, even when they are all seeing the same event, and it is perfectly natural for one witness to see four women where another witness only saw one woman, because they are focused on different things while they are actually observing the incident.
 
Myths about people who are still alive develop among those who have heard stories, but have never actually met the person. …
JM:

Well, as Mir pointed out, men who knew someone might themselves start myths. Of course, they themselves would be lying, or mistaken, or not in their right minds.

I’m sure you believe that Peter, for example, told the truth about Jesus rising from the dead in Acts. Is there any reason you can give us, JM, why you believe Peter did not deceive, or was not deceived, or was not delusional?
 
"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact."My apologies, Mir, Peter’s words are from Acts, chapter 2 (not 1).

:o

biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=2&version=31
 
If you and i examine the evidence and find that 1, 2 or 3 are the truth, then we should do our best to share this with everyone who will listen who believe this lie that turned the world upside down. However, if you and i rule out 1, 2 and 3, that leaves us with only one possibility, which is 4.
And if, not having known the man, I do not rule out any of them?
I think we owe it to ourselves, and to all those who might benefit from what our investigation reveals, to look into this carefully and thoughtfully. Don’t you?
I honestly have bigger fish to fry, but this is entertaining.
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jmcrae:
Myths about people who are still alive develop among those who have heard stories, but have never actually met the person.
Not necessarily. How many kids believe their grandpas were SEALs in the Korean War? They know him quite well, just not that he’s embellishing his war record. Parson Weems invented the story of Washington and the cherry tree out of whole cloth right after he died, and whether the two ever met doesn’t really matter.
You only need two witnesses for a court case, and they don’t have to agree on every detail. All they have to agree is on the basic incident itself, and “Yeah, that was the guy - the one sitting in the prisoner’s dock.”
And here we have the witnesses saying ‘invisible pigs flew’. Would that satisfy a judge in court?
 
… I honestly have bigger fish to fry, but this is entertaining. …
Yes, i agree! 🙂

Socrates was right, i think, when he said to his good fried Phaedrus that learning from one another through dialog is superior to learning from books. For what book can possibly answer our questions or defend itself should we slander it?

Since time is rare and precious, we should, if we decide to go on with this conversation, tenaciously focus on the question at hand and resist the temptation of chasing the white rabbit down maddening holes (even if he should be dressed in a blazer and sporting a pocket watch)!

😃

Since we desire to know not just what the Bible says is a lie, but why it is a lie, we must engage in the discussion, though i agree we should keep it brief.
 
And if, not having known the man, I do not rule out any of them? …
True! And yet we make judgements about those we have never met every day based on the information we have at our disposal. If the information is reliable and accurate, and our motives are pure and unbiased, we make right judgements, i think. This is certainly true of those who serve on juries in the United States.

Lets think of ourselves then as members of the jury with the serious responsibility of deciding whether Peter is guilty or innocent of the crimes with which we have accused him. We shall not begin by presuming he is guilty, of course, for that would be unjust. We shall begin presuming his innocence and consider the most damning evidence against him. We shall let the evidence speak for itself, and if it gives us good reason to doubt we shall agree that we the jury pronounce Peter guilty of lying in the first degree (or of the lesser crimes of being a fool or certifiably insane). We shall not pass judgement on him, for we are not his judge, as that duty is God’s alone (that is, if God exists). Our job will only be to find him guilty or innocent and to pronounce our verdict.

Will you join me on the jury, or will you recuse yourself?
 
Since we desire to know not just what the Bible says is a lie, but why it is a lie, we must engage in the discussion, though i agree we should keep it brief.
Let’s call it ‘erroneous’; to call it a lie implies malice, and I have nothing in that way against the New Testament.
Lets think of ourselves then as members of the jury with the serious responsibility of deciding whether Peter is guilty or innocent of the crimes with which we have accused him. We shall not begin by presuming he is guilty, of course, for that would be unjust. We shall begin presuming his innocence and consider the most damning evidence against him. We shall let the evidence speak for itself, and if it gives us good reason to doubt we shall agree that we the jury pronounce Peter guilty of lying in the first degree (or of the lesser crimes of being a fool or certifiably insane). We shall not pass judgement on him, for we are not his judge, as that duty is God’s alone (that is, if God exists). Our job will only be to find him guilty or innocent and to pronounce our verdict.
I do not know if the jury is the most appropriate metaphor – it seems more like we are opposing attorneys, I the prosecution and you the defense 😉

I have no reason to accuse Peter of lying; all in all, from the accounts given of his actions he seems to have been a good and honorable man, if imperfect like all of us (I’d probably have chickened out in that courtyard too). I have no reason to say that he did not act in good faith.

What he did proclaim in good faith, however, is what I take issue with. He and his companions make claims that I have no way of verifying and which defy all precedent and reason.

That there was a great teacher and moralist wandering around Judea who got himself crucified? I can buy that, it’s reasonable, natural, and that area at that time is known by other historians to have had a messiah infestation. No reason to doubt it.

That this crucified man got up and walked out of his tomb three days later? That I have problems with. Death is the end of life; and while one can come back from brief cessation of heart and lung activity, that isn’t the sort of thing we’re talking about here. He was good and dead, and people don’t just get up from that. If the defense could call Lazarus and Jairus’ daughter to the stand, then we might be able to get somewhere.

That this man was God incognito? Whoa there. Was he a man, or was he a deity? Both?! How can a person be fully human and at the same time fully divine? Reason says the two are mutually exclusive: a man cannot be a god, or else he is only a god; and a god cannot be a man, or he is only human.

In short, these latter two claims can only be taken on faith; and faith in that great quantity is something I do not have. Those who do have that faith claim Peter is telling the complete truth – not merely to the best of his ability or as far as he knows it, but The Complete Truth – because he says he is; what reason have we to take it on fiat like that?
 
And frnate, Lewis was Anglican, wasn’t he?
Yes, however, he is one of the few writers that can be found in Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant bookstores. Which I believe speaks volumes about his effectiveness as a Christian Apologist.

Peace,
+N
 
… I do not know if the jury is the most appropriate metaphor – it seems more like we are opposing attorneys, I the prosecution and you the defense 😉 …
Yes, that was careless thinking on my part. For juries do not participate in the examination and cross examination of witnesses. I do not think the roll of prosecuting and defense attorneys are a good idea, either. For Socrates said that lawyers “literally care nothing about the truth” and so they “bid the truth a hearty farewell” (Phaedrus, 272). I think there is some truth to his words, for the only concern of a defense attorney is to procure an acquittal for the plaintiff, and the only concern for a prosecutor is to obtain a guilty verdict for the same. You and i, on the other hand, are not so partisan. We are concerned with uncovering the truth.

Perhaps it might be more accurate to think of ourselves as crime scene investigators. The truth lies void of life at the scene of the crime and we must examine the evidence to see if Peter is the perpetrator. Now i might be inclined to think the man innocent, and you might be presupposed to think him guilty, but as trustworthy professionals we should both put our biases aside and see where the evidence leads us.

 
Let’s call it ‘erroneous’; to call it a lie implies malice, and I have nothing in that way against the New Testament.
… I have no reason to accuse Peter of lying; all in all, from the accounts given of his actions he seems to have been a good and honorable man, if imperfect like all of us (I’d probably have chickened out in that courtyard too). I have no reason to say that he did not act in good faith. …
Very well, then, i must concur Mir. This is a good start, for as investigators into this crime against humanity, which is the idea that Christ rose from the dead, you and i do not have to examine any more evidence. Our investigations made prior to this conversation have both reached the same conclusion: Peter could not have intentionally lied about the resurrection of his mentor Jesus. We may then cross one of the possible outcomes of our investigation off the list:

  1. *]He was insane
    *]He was deceived
    *]-]He knew he was not telling the truth /-]
    *]He knew he was telling the truth
    Crossed off our list it shall remain, unless MerryAtheist or some other witness presents new testimony or evidentiary submissions for our approval.
 
JM:

Well, as Mir pointed out, men who knew someone might themselves start myths. Of course, they themselves would be lying, or mistaken, or not in their right minds.
True. After all, there are many excitable people who think that Elvis was abducted by aliens. Of course, none of them is considered a gifted speaker, nor have any of them managed to convince crowds of thousands of the veracity of their claims, as St. Peter did of Jesus’ claims on that first Pentecost Sunday. (Acts 2)
I’m sure you believe that Peter, for example, told the truth about Jesus rising from the dead in Acts. Is there any reason you can give us, JM, why you believe Peter did not deceive, or was not deceived, or was not delusional?
Peter had no good reason to deceive - there was no profit in it for him, and great risk. Indeed, just two weeks earlier, he had been all set to return to Galilee and resume his fishing business in order to set aside money for a good retirement. Indeed, he had already sailed his boat into deep water when Jesus appeared to him on the shore and called him by name. It would have been an easy thing for him to pretend he never heard, and just keep going - but he didn’t. He turned around, and he went back - into what, he had no way of knowing. (John 21:15-19)

We know that Peter was not delusional, because we see the words that he spoke in his first homily, we see his other speeches, and we see for ourselves the letters that he wrote to the churches. Not only was he talking sense, his speeches and letters are among the greatest literature the world has ever seen - so, no - he certainly wasn’t crazy, and nor was he stupid.

If you have ever met a crazy person or a stupid person, try to imagine them giving those speeches or writing those letters. Even people who are considered relatively brilliant compared to most of us would have a difficult time writing or speaking those works.
 
… What he did proclaim in good faith, however, is what I take issue with. He and his companions make claims that I have no way of verifying and which defy all precedent and reason.

… That this crucified man got up and walked out of his tomb three days later? That I have problems with. Death is the end of life; and while one can come back from brief cessation of heart and lung activity, that isn’t the sort of thing we’re talking about here. He was good and dead, and people don’t just get up from that. If the defense could call Lazarus and Jairus’ daughter to the stand, then we might be able to get somewhere.

That this man was God incognito? Whoa there. Was he a man, or was he a deity? Both?! How can a person be fully human and at the same time fully divine? Reason says the two are mutually exclusive: a man cannot be a god, or else he is only a god; and a god cannot be a man, or he is only human. …
I think it was Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s character Sherlock Holmes who said something to this effect: If we eliminate every possibility that is probable, and the only possibility we have left is what is improbable, this we must accept as the truth, even if we assume it is impossible. I believe the detective was correct, for there are several things i used to think was impossible that i later learned were not. This is true of human experience on the whole, i believe. When my father was a child, for example, naysayers claimed it would be impossible for a man to ever walk on the moon. They were not saying anything new. For thousands of years humanity saw this as an impossible dream. When i was a child that impossibility became a reality. The Internet is another impossibility made reality. Benjamin Franklin when his kite was struck by lightning, never imagined you and i typing messages to one another, taking moments what used to take months, or even years to accomplish.

So, then Mir. You and i have already ruled out the possibility that Peter intentionally deceived. That leaves us with only three possibilities, now:

  1. *]He was insane
    *]He was deceived
    *]-] He knew he was not telling the truth/-]
    *]He knew he was telling the truth
    The 4th, as you say, is improbable. However, what is improbable is not necessarily impossible. At least, we have not yet proven it to be so. I do not think we even have to prove (4) impossible, though, as long as we prove that either (1) or (2) is actual.

    It seems, by your statement, that you believe either (1) or (2) to be where the evidence is leading, but it is unclear exactly which one you believe is closer to the truth. Please tell me, do you think Peter mad, or just seriously mistaken?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Very well, then, i must concur Mir. This is a good start, for as investigators into this crime against humanity, which is the idea that Christ rose from the dead, you and i do not have to examine any more evidence. …

Correction: You Mir and i do not have to examine any more evidence regarding whether Peter intentionally lied. We should still consider the evidence regarding the other three possibilities.
 

  1. *]He was insane
    *]He was deceived
    *]-] He knew he was not telling the truth/-]
    *]He knew he was telling the truth
    The 4th, as you say, is improbable. However, what is improbable is not necessarily impossible. At least, we have not yet proven it to be so. I do not think we even have to prove (4) impossible, though, as long as we prove that either (1) or (2) is actual.

    It seems, by your statement, that you believe either (1) or (2) to be where the evidence is leading, but it is unclear exactly which one you believe is closer to the truth. Please tell me, do you think Peter mad, or just seriously mistaken?

  1. I cannot speak as to his mental state; and contrary to what jmcrae says, lunatics can be capable of incredible eloquence. That remains a possibility, but discussing it’s really a dead end.

    Whether he was mistaken or misled is, of course, still on the table.

    As for ‘knew he was not telling the truth’, yes, the conscious lie is out – but consider this: that he was simply in over his head in the myth growing around Jesus. Does a lie become truth if enough people buy into it? An objective observer would say no, but subjectively it’s good enough for people.
 
True. After all, there are many excitable people who think that Elvis was abducted by aliens. Of course, none of them is considered a gifted speaker, nor have any of them managed to convince crowds of thousands of the veracity of their claims, as St. Peter did of Jesus’ claims on that first Pentecost Sunday. (Acts 2)

…We know that Peter was not delusional, because we see the words that he spoke in his first homily, we see his other speeches, and we see for ourselves the letters that he wrote to the churches. Not only was he talking sense, his speeches and letters are among the greatest literature the world has ever seen - so, no - he certainly wasn’t crazy, and nor was he stupid. …
You make a good case in the defense of the accused, JM! When a madman shouts to a crowd, people often laugh at him or shrink away in disgust. While there were hecklers when Peter made his speech, they were in the minority, for Dr. Luke tells us:With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
(Acts 2:40-41)
I don’t think several thousand would have become followers of this walking dead guy if Peter showed signs of being delusional.

You have given us reasonable doubt, then, to find the plaintiff not guilty of (1).

  1. *]He was insane
    *]He was deceived
    *]-]He knew he was not telling the truth/-]
    *]He knew he was telling the truth

    However, i do not think we should cross it off our list, yet. For Proverbs tells us:The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him.
    (Proverbs 18:17)
    Maybe your testimony will not seem so compelling after Mir brings other evidence to light.
 
… As for ‘knew he was not telling the truth’, yes, the conscious lie is out – but consider this: that he was simply in over his head in the myth growing around Jesus. Does a lie become truth if enough people buy into it? An objective observer would say no, but subjectively it’s good enough for people.
A lie is still a lie even if everybody believes it. The truth is still the truth even if nobody believes it.
– Steve Brown

Once you see truth you can’t unsee it.
– Mother Teresa

… if we had found the truth ourselves, do you think that we would care much about the opinions of men?
– Socrates
 
I cannot speak as to his mental state; and contrary to what jmcrae says, lunatics can be capable of incredible eloquence.
Only for relatively short periods of time. Peter managed to be eloquent and logical for a continuous period from 33 AD until his martyrdom in 67 AD - a period of 34 years.

I have encountered my share of lunatics, and the majority only last about five minutes before beginning to contradict themselves. (Liars last about a week or so, in my experience, until they forget which leg they “broke,” or what lie they told, or to whom they told it.)
 
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