Jesus was an only son.. Mary did not have more children!!

[1beleevr]

abucs: Thank you for all that feedback! I am not a better Christian than you or anyone else, for that matter(Philippians 3:12-14), nor do I strive to be! My goal is to be a more complete Christian! To have a better prayer life, better service life(Mark 10:45), and draw ever closer to my King! And compelled to confess to a priest, may be a strong word, but I am sure that as catholics, you are strongly urged, or encouraged to go to confession! Someone once, in aanother thread, said that not going to confession was a mortal sin. To me this issue still remains one of personal choice, and should not be one of compulsion or obligation, as Jesus never commanded it! And, whether or not Mary had other children, really has no effect on our salvation!

 

[Zundrah]

Consider this messiatic scripture;

Psalm 69:8 (New International Version)

8 I am a stranger to my brothers,
an alien to my own mother’s sons;

 

[Zundrah]

…AND THESE?

Matthew 1:24-25 - “And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.”

Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”

Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

John 2:12 - “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”

Acts 1:14 - “These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.”

1 Cor. 9:4-5 - “Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”

Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

…AND THESE?

Matthew 1:24-25 - “And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.”

Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”

Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

John 2:12 - “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”

Acts 1:14 - “These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.”

1 Cor. 9:4-5 - “Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”

Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."

Zundrah,

Do you believe that Mary is actively participating in the plan of salvation?

 

[Janet1983]

I don’t want to sound offensive, but a question comes to my mind: what if you had fallen in love with a Muslim? a Buddhist? An Atheist? What if he had been a Catholic like you? Would you have followed him to any of those destinations?

There is a good possibility I would have and I admit to that. This is simply because I did not get saved while my husband was around… I actually dragged him to mass (and he felt very uncomfortable and today I understand why).
I became a true Christian and started to follow Jesus Christ while my husband was downrange.

You say “While the general situation is rather catastrophic when it comes to attendance I nearly overdid it.” Were you trying to carry the Church on your shoulders? Were you feeling guilty for the lack of faith in some of your fellow parishioners? Why were you trying to force yourself to what I consider “religious extremes”? All these things were inside you, this was a struggle inside your head. It was you against you.

No, I felt guilty because of my own shortcomings. I tried to be perfect and I wasn’t. It got so bad that I wrote down every single detail that I did wrong, just to make sure I wouldn’t forget it. I already confessed everything that I remembered, but this did not help me get rid of my guilt… God will not be bribed and I did know that I couldn’t do anything. I tried and I tried and my guilt seemed to mount up further and further.
My father was very concerned and he wanted to even force me to spend 50% of my free time outside of the church so I started playing darts. Unfortunately one of the friends there went to church with me and that way I couldn’t even do that. (Apart from the fact that one weekly meeting and one game were far from 50%.)
It was not me against me or a struggle in my head. This was the devil against me, the accuser who did have every reason to accuse me as my sins were mounting up.
I would have done anything to get out of this situation. I prayed every prayer I knew in every quiet minute. I spend hours on end on the floor of the chapel at the nunnery I was at. Countless hours of kneeling in front of a monstrance even damaged my knees. Had there been a possibility to lower myself further than laying flat on the ground I would have done it. I was not looking for a miracle… I was looking for mercy.

 

[1beleevr]

follow Yeshua: I believe that Mary was a part of the blueprint for the plan of salvation, but I do not think, that she fully understood at first, what it was all about! Being the willing and humble servant that she was, she gladly accepted her role!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, we know that the first Christians were called Christians because that’s in Scripture, Acts 11:26. So it’s important enough that it’s in Scripture and whatever they may have called themselves before isn’t. …

And we know those Christians were called Catholic because we have the writings of a Christian named Ignatius who knew St. John and who referred to those Christians in these words, “Where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church.” Catholic means ‘universal’. Surely you would agree that Christ’s Church is and was always meant to be one in unity and of course universal?

 

[1beleevr]

tantum ergo: Yes, I would agree that Christ’s wish was for His believers, wherever they live, or whatever their ethnic to be united! Not sure if He wanted us all to be called catholics or not! He did want us to serve, and to make disciples, however!

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

follow Yeshua: I believe that Mary was a part of the blueprint for the plan of salvation, but I do not think, that she fully understood at first, what it was all about! Being the willing and humble servant that she was, she gladly accepted her role!

I think she was too. What a strong lady! But do you think the spirit that is appearing to humanity is part of the plan of salvation?

 

[Prieldedi]

…AND THESE?

Matthew 1:24-25 - “And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.”

Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”

Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

John 2:12 - “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”

Acts 1:14 - “These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.”

1 Cor. 9:4-5 - “Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”

Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."

Here we go again… Let me start addressing your last passage first:

Galatians 1:19 “But I did not see any other apostle except James, the Lord’s brother.”

Paul is telling us that he went up to Jerusalem to meet Cephas (Peter) and stayed with him 15 days, and that he (Paul) did not see any other Apostle … EXCEPT … James. In other words, what Paul is saying is that, besides CEPHAS (PETER), he saw JUST ONE MORE Apostle, “James, the Lord’s brother.”

We know there are two Apostles named James:

James (the Greater) son of Zebedee and Salome, brother of John.
James (the Lesser) son of Cleophas and (the other) Mary, brother of Joseph (Joses) and Jude.

There IS NOT a third Apostle named James, and the James in this passage is identified as being an Apostle. We know that (the other) Mary is the wife of Cleophas (also known as Alpheus), and she is also the sister of the Blessed Virgin Mary (John 19.25), and we know that (the other) Mary and Cleophas (Alpheus) are the parents of James the Lesser. That would make James the Lesser the COUSIN of Jesus. For lack of that word (cousin) in Aramaic/Hebrew back then, the only word to describe the relationship between these two men was … BROTHER!

Being this the case, JOSEPH (JOSES) and JUDE, brothers of James the Lesser, would also be COUSINS of Jesus. As demonstrated, these are not sons of the Blessed Virgin Mary, then SIMON is not either. SIMON is the Canaanite (Mark 3:18), also called the ‘Zealot’ (Lk. 6:15). He is seen in Acts 1:13 “On entering the city they went to the room upstairs where they were staying. Present there were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James, son of Alpheus; Simon the Zealot and Judas son of James.”

There were two Apostles named Simon. The other Simon was known by then as PETER.

There is a third Simon in the NT, the leper (Mt. 26:6); a fourth one, “a man from Cyrene” (Mt. 27:32); a fifth, "Simon Iscariot ", the father of the traitor (John 12:4); a sixth, “A certain man named Simon had come to this town, practicing magic” (Acts 8:9); and a seventh, “he remained for some time in Joppa at the house of Simon, a tanner of leather” (Acts 9:43). None of these Simon was in the inner circle of the Lord.

Is there any need to continue? OK, let’s continue…

In my Bible:

Matthew 1:24 “When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do and he took his wife to his home. So she gave birth to a son and he had not had marital relations with her. Joseph gave him the name of Jesus.”

This only confirms that Mary was a Virgin when Jesus was born, She had no marital relations with Joseph.

Matthew 12:46, …

Matthew 13:55 “Isn’t he the carpenter’s son? Isn’t Mary his mother and aren’t James, Joseph, Simon and Judas his brothers?”

They got it all wrong! St. Joseph WAS NOT Jesus biological father (beep!), just as Mary WAS NOT James (beep!), Joseph (beep!), Simon (beep!) or Judas (beep!) biological mother either! Five wrong out of five!

Mark 6:2-3 … John 2:12 … Acts 1:14 …

Go back to my post #481 on Page 33 for the real parents…

1 Corinthians 9:4-5, “Have we not the right to be fed? Have we not the right to bring along with us a sister as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”

Sister in my Bible, not wife.

There you have it, from another angle. All the times they point to the same result: THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY only had one Son, Jesus.

God bless you

 

[Zundrah]

Zundrah,

Do you believe that Mary is actively participating in the plan of salvation?

Yes, of course I do! Otherwise I wouldn’t do my Holy Rosary every single day!

 

[Zundrah]

Here we go again… Let me start addressing your last passage first:

Galatians 1:19 “But I did not see any other apostle except James, the Lord’s brother.”

Paul is telling us that he went up to Jerusalem to meet Cephas (Peter) and stayed with him 15 days, and that he (Paul) did not see any other Apostle … EXCEPT … James. In other words, what Paul is saying is that, besides CEPHAS (PETER), he saw JUST ONE MORE Apostle, “James, the Lord’s brother.”

We know there are two Apostles named James:

James (the Greater) son of Zebedee and Salome, brother of John.
James (the Lesser) son of Cleophas and (the other) Mary, brother of Joseph (Joses) and Jude.

There IS NOT a third Apostle named James, and the James in this passage is identified as being an Apostle. We know that (the other) Mary is the wife of Cleophas (also known as Alpheus), and she is also the sister of the Blessed Virgin Mary (John 19.25), and we know that (the other) Mary and Cleophas (Alpheus) are the parents of James the Lesser. That would make James the Lesser the COUSIN of Jesus. For lack of that word (cousin) in Aramaic/Hebrew back then, the only word to describe the relationship between these two men was … BROTHER!

Being this the case, JOSEPH (JOSES) and JUDE, brothers of James the Lesser, would also be COUSINS of Jesus. As demonstrated, these are not sons of the Blessed Virgin Mary, then SIMON is not either. SIMON is the Canaanite (Mark 3:18), also called the ‘Zealot’ (Lk. 6:15). He is seen in Acts 1:13 “On entering the city they went to the room upstairs where they were staying. Present there were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James, son of Alpheus; Simon the Zealot and Judas son of James.”

There were two Apostles named Simon. The other Simon was known by then as PETER.

There is a third Simon in the NT, the leper (Mt. 26:6); a fourth one, “a man from Cyrene” (Mt. 27:32); a fifth, "Simon Iscariot ", the father of the traitor (John 12:4); a sixth, “A certain man named Simon had come to this town, practicing magic” (Acts 8:9); and a seventh, “he remained for some time in Joppa at the house of Simon, a tanner of leather” (Acts 9:43). None of these Simon was in the inner circle of the Lord.

Is there any need to continue? OK, let’s continue…

In my Bible:

Matthew 1:24 “When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do and he took his wife to his home. So she gave birth to a son and he had not had marital relations with her. Joseph gave him the name of Jesus.”

This only confirms that Mary was a Virgin when Jesus was born, She had no marital relations with Joseph.

Matthew 12:46, …

Matthew 13:55 “Isn’t he the carpenter’s son? Isn’t Mary his mother and aren’t James, Joseph, Simon and Judas his brothers?”

They got it all wrong! St. Joseph WAS NOT Jesus biological father (beep!), just as Mary WAS NOT James (beep!), Joseph (beep!), Simon (beep!) or Judas (beep!) biological mother either! Five wrong out of five!

Mark 6:2-3 … John 2:12 … Acts 1:14 …

Go back to my post #481 on Page 33 for the real parents…

1 Corinthians 9:4-5, “Have we not the right to be fed? Have we not the right to bring along with us a sister as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”

Sister in my Bible, not wife.

There you have it, from another angle. All the times they point to the same result: THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY only had one Son, Jesus.

God bless you

But what about my post before the one you replied to?

 

[1beleevr]

prieldedi: Both of my Bibles say: Matthew 1:25,“But he did not have sexual relations with her, UNTIL after her Son was born.” Perception, even in those times, was something that everyone may have used to form opinions about situations. Joseph was worried about what others would think of him marrying a pregnant woman. Had they had relations before marriage; was it “his” baby? An when those with veils over their eyes, when they saw Mary and Joseph together with Jesus, they might naturally assume that Joseph was His"biological father. I, myself, have never doubted Mary’s virginity prior to the birth of Christ. It has piqued my curiosity, as to whether she and Joseph enjoyed the fruits of marital relations after Jesus was born. There really is no foundational data, which lends credence either way. I cannot prove that she di have other childre; but I can entertain the idea that she and Joseph consummated their union, and that PERHAPS they had other children!

 

[Prieldedi]

prieldedi: Both of my Bibles say: Matthew 1:25,“But he did not have sexual relations with her, UNTIL after her Son was born.” Perception, even in those times, was something that everyone may have used to form opinions about situations. Joseph was worried about what others would think of him marrying a pregnant woman. Had they had relations before marriage; was it “his” baby? An when those with veils over their eyes, when they saw Mary and Joseph together with Jesus, they might naturally assume that Joseph was His"biological father. I, myself, have never doubted Mary’s virginity prior to the birth of Christ. It has piqued my curiosity, as to whether she and Joseph enjoyed the fruits of marital relations after Jesus was born. There really is no foundational data, which lends credence either way. I cannot prove that she di have other childre; but I can entertain the idea that she and Joseph consummated their union, and that PERHAPS they had other children!

This is my Bible version:

Matthew 1:25 “So she gave birth to a son and he had not had marital relations with her. Joseph gave him the name of Jesus.”

Nothing here implies that Mary had relations with Joseph afterward.

This is from the King James version:
Matthew 1:25, “And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.” No mention of “sexual relations”.

This from the American Standard Version
Matthew 1:25, “and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.” No mention of “sexual relations”.

Who changed the words in you Bible?

I could even make the case for “LITERAL INTERPRETATION”, as Protestants usually do when defending their positions. The verb used here is “KNEW”. Since when it’s implied that one has “sexual relations” after “knowing” someone?

We know God wanted to protect her from hearsay from the “nosy neighbors”, those that would’ve criticized Her for being a “single mom”. Joseph’s role was to act as Her husband to protect both, the Mother and the Son. He did it because God asked him to do it, he was obedient.

People even asked:
Matthew 13:55, “Isn’t he the carpenter’s son?”

Should we, by the words of these people that knew Jesus, start believing them, “the nosy neighbors”, and deny that Jesus was conceived by an act of the Holy Spirit?

Furthermore, does the word “until” really imply that Mary had relations after Jesus was born? Let’s look at the way “until” is used in other biblical verses:

Matthew 28:20, “I am with you always until the end of this world.”

2 Sam 6:23, “no son was born to Michal, the daughter of Saul until her dying day.”

If we apply the same logic to these passages, then we should believe that…

Jesus will cease to be with us after the end of this world.
Michal had a son after she died.

The word “until” is used in these instances because the writer is concerned primarily to inform us what happened before, not after.

*"It is a curious fact that Evangelical Protestants seem to have a major problem with the Virgin Mary. It is a problem that goes far beyond theological reason and debate. In some quarters there seems to be a major antipathy, almost hatred, directed at one of the key figures in the story of redemption. In fact a few protestant apologists write of the Mother of the Redeemer almost as if she were the enemy of God. How can this unhealthy state of affairs have come about?

Perhaps it has something to do with the misogynistic tendencies that were evident in many of the Reformers, although most actually maintained Marian doctrines that would surprise their modern-day followers. There is also a great deal of ignorance among modern-day protestants as to the Scriptural and other ancient support for most of the Marian doctrines. It is the fundamentalist move away from Mary that has been the recent aberration. Yet even many Protestant Christians who are not so extreme still believe that Catholic and Orthodox doctrines on the Virgin Mary are unscriptural and are inventions of the Medieval Church, being unknown to the early Christians."*

Read original here.

God bless you

 

[Prieldedi]

But what about my post before the one you replied to?

Check my reply to rbarcia regarding these passages in my post #488 on Page 33.

God bless you

 

[YADA]

…After Jerome translated the Bible to latin, and the subsequent years of Dark Ages where the roman catholic church did not allow the common man to read the Bible lead to years of people not having scriptures where they could read it for themselves.

!!! The Chruch did not allow the Common Man to Read the Bible !!!

:bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes:

Sheesh … can’t you get moreoriginal then that old [and inaccurate] cannard?



How many translations in various common languages existed before Martin Luther’s german translation [HINT: just in the German language there was something like 18: covering both in High and Low german]

How were ‘bibles’ made before the invention of the printing press? What is the equivalent cost of a bible created by hand in today’s dollars? How many ‘common’ people would have owned one at that cost? If you had to spend that much to have a copy of the scriptures today; would you? *

What year was the printing press invented? What was the literacy rate among ‘commoners’ during that time period?*

 

[1beleevr]

prieldedi: One of the things that I enjoy about sparring with you, is that when we’re done, there is no harm done, and we both are actually in the same place we started in Don’t get me wrong; I am impressed with your obedience to your church, and your vast knowledge of scripture! Also your almost painful adherence to catholic doctrine. So here we are, you staunchly defending the virginity of Mary, while I, seemingly the “gnat”, of skepticism and doubt, continue to bombard catholics with the POSSIBILTY that in His infinite wisdom, mercy and grace, God may have allowed Mary and Joseph to enjoy “normal” marital relations. Could we,(as many are wont to do), infer from your one example, "I will be with you until the end of THIS world, that He meant, and beyond? And the incessant use of twisted logic to explain the use of UNTIL! If your spouse told you that they had to work until 6PM; does that mean that they will be off at 6, or past 6 or before? I don’t even know if the words of my Bible were changed How many words were used in the OT&NT to indicate sexual relations? In Genesis, Sarah tells Abram(Abraham) to sleep with Hagar, as she believes she is too old to bear a child. And then there’s the term you used, “to know” someone. Joseph and Mary, as far as I can figure, knew each other(not sexually) for awhile before they actually had the wedding ceremony. Is it not Jewish custom(or was) that the couple was “betrothed”, and had to live apart for one year, even though they were considered married? Listen, I have never said, as many other non-catholics have, that Mary DEFINITELY had other children, but I have/do entertain the POSSIBILITY:thumbsup: "With God, ALL things are possible. Ta-Ta, UNTIL we “talk” again:thumbsup:

 

[Prieldedi]

prieldedi: One of the things that I enjoy about sparring with you, is that when we’re done, there is no harm done, and we both are actually in the same place we started in Don’t get me wrong; I am impressed with your obedience to your church, and your vast knowledge of scripture! Also your almost painful adherence to catholic doctrine. So here we are, you staunchly defending the virginity of Mary, while I, seemingly the “gnat”, of skepticism and doubt, continue to bombard catholics with the POSSIBILTY that in His infinite wisdom, mercy and grace, God may have allowed Mary and Joseph to enjoy “normal” marital relations. Could we,(as many are wont to do), infer from your one example, "I will be with you until the end of THIS world, that He meant, and beyond? And the incessant use of twisted logic to explain the use of UNTIL! If your spouse told you that they had to work until 6PM; does that mean that they will be off at 6, or past 6 or before? I don’t even know if the words of my Bible were changed How many words were used in the OT&NT to indicate sexual relations? In Genesis, Sarah tells Abram(Abraham) to sleep with Hagar, as she believes she is too old to bear a child. And then there’s the term you used, “to know” someone. Joseph and Mary, as far as I can figure, knew each other(not sexually) for awhile before they actually had the wedding ceremony. Is it not Jewish custom(or was) that the couple was “betrothed”, and had to live apart for one year, even though they were considered married? Listen, I have never said, as many other non-catholics have, that Mary DEFINITELY had other children, but I have/do entertain the POSSIBILITY:thumbsup: "With God, ALL things are possible. Ta-Ta, UNTIL we “talk” again:thumbsup:

Thanks for your kind words. I too admire the strength of your arguments and the way that you put it, “entertain the possibility”.

We agree that the truth is either with the Catholic Church or with those who reject Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. There is no other option. “Mary did not have other children” is either true or false.

What the Catholic Church teaches is that there are many verses in the Bible that clearly, when all of them are taken together, corraborate that Mary had no more children and that She is still Virgin. But here we are dealing with the word “until”. Like I said before in one of my posts, some “can’t see the forest for the trees”.

Let me try to look at this from another perspective:

1. Matthew 28:20, “I will be with you until the end of THIS world.” You asked, did He mean “and beyond”? Good question.
2. 2 Sam 6:23, “no son was born to Michal, the daughter of Saul until her dying day.”
3. Matthew 1:25, Joseph “knew [meaning sexual relations] her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son”. Joseph DID NOT have marital realtions with Her BEFORE Jesus was born.

In the first case Jesus HAD BEEN with the Apostles BEFORE. The word UNTIL doesn’t imply that He WILL NOT BE WITH THEM beyond the end of this world. We know He will.
Here you have the same scenario, the same situation, BEFORE and AFTER. There will be no change AFTER the end of the world. Jesus HAS BEEN and WILL BE with His CHurch, BEFORE and AFTER the end of the world.

In the second case Michal DID NOT have a son before she died, and also Michal DID NOT have a son AFTER she died.
The situation BEFORE and AFTER is the same. No son BEFORE, no son AFTER.

In the third case you have KNEW HER NOT BEFORE… but you want us to entertain the possibility that Joseph KNEW HER AFTER.
When we entertain that possibility, the situation changes. The BEFORE is not the same situation as the AFTER. No relations BEFORE, relations AFTER.

In the first case, the word UNTIL did not change the situation, it remains the same BEFORE and AFTER.
In the second case, the word UNTIL did not change the situation, it remained the same BEFORE and AFTER.
In both of these cases the word UNTIL in fact CONFIRMS that the situation is the same BEFORE and AFTER.
But in the third case, the word UNTIL changes the situation. All of a sudden, the BEFORE and AFTER are not the same.
Why?

We have looked at this issue from many different angles. This is one more. Every argument we have used points to only one result: Mary DID NOT have more children and Mary REMAINED, and still is, a Virgin.

In what way would Mary’s Perpetual Virginity reduce God’s power? Remember, God doesn’t think like we humans do. Do you think God would allow a simple man to “entertain” the idea of having sexual relations with HIS Daughter, HIS Wife and HIS Mother?

Isn’t it time for non believers to “entertain” the possibility that Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is TRUE?

“With God, ALL things are possible.” Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is one of them.

God bless you

 

[1beleevr]

prieldedi: Lest any of us “entertain” the notion, that we know what God thinks, or how He works, let us ALL agree that His thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are alays better than ours:thumbsup: I know I don’t have to wonder whether you included me in your statement about nonbelievers, because I’m as much a believer as you are, still vulnerable, still tempted, still following my Saviour, on this wacky roller coaster we call life. And please don’t get me confused with anybody(noncatholic, cafeteria catholic, former catholic, etc), who believe that Mary and Joseph had sex before Jesus was born. We could go on ad infinitum about what UNTIL means, and still walk away believing what we believed in the first place You make some excellent points for her virginity:clapping:, however, anyone born of man and woman, is subject to imperfection(Romans 5:12) Since we know very little about Mary’s upbringing(some suggest that Mary herself was the product of an immaculate conception), there really is no way to say that she was born"sinless". Seems to me, that a young Jewish carpenter was the only one I’ve ever heard of:thumbsup: Talked to a co-worker, who was raised catholic, but left the church; said he couldn’t keep up with all the rituals, which included(his words)" the seemingly glorification of Mary". Believe me, I don’t hate anyone for anything, whether it’s confessing to a priest(don’t need it), wearing a cross with a corpus on it, or holding Mary in a higher position than I do I hope I didn’t misread your words, and believe that you referred to Mary as God’s wife Yes, she was the physical mother of the Christ child, but not God’s wife. So, anyway, how are you? Let us come to the table of grace, with humble hearts, and willing minds; eyes fixed on Our Saviour:thumbsup:

 

[1beleevr]

For the prosecution:yada, for the defense:rbarcia. At stake, the fate of the “common” man! Imagine not being able to read God’s Word, because you were a “common” man Now imagine this post being read with a British accent