A
Arandur
Guest
I gave my perspective on the importance of this in a related thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=56667&page=2
Posts #26 and 27
Hope that helps
- Status
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=56667&page=2
Posts #26 and 27
Hope that helps
K
Kalos
Guest
I am just checking out this thread fo the first time due to the recent flury or posting. Have a few comments to add.
I have noticed that many seem to be very drawn to the doctrine of Perpetual Virginity and are staunch defenders of it. I am curious as to why. Does it add something to the faith or to our understanding or point to something?
From what i understand, the scripture writers are concerned about making some points about Jesus, not Mary. The OT says He will be born of a virgin to show us the uniqueness of His birth and secondly it must be a virgin birth so that the savior would be pure and not contaminated with the tainted blood of Adam. Only then could He be a perfect sacrifice.
If the teaching on Marys Perpetual Virginity is a foundational dogma of the church, it would seem that we should see prophecies in the OT that point to it and also more signs in the NT. I have no interest in minimizing Mary either, because she is an outstanding example of faith. She spoke one of the great verses of the bible- “let it be done unto me according to thy word”. I often pray this prayer. John the Baptist also spoke a great word- “He must increase and I must decrease”.
So could someone more knowlegable help us understand the importance of Perpetual Virginity?
I have noticed that many seem to be very drawn to the doctrine of Perpetual Virginity and are staunch defenders of it. I am curious as to why. Does it add something to the faith or to our understanding or point to something?
From what i understand, the scripture writers are concerned about making some points about Jesus, not Mary. The OT says He will be born of a virgin to show us the uniqueness of His birth and secondly it must be a virgin birth so that the savior would be pure and not contaminated with the tainted blood of Adam. Only then could He be a perfect sacrifice.
If the teaching on Marys Perpetual Virginity is a foundational dogma of the church, it would seem that we should see prophecies in the OT that point to it and also more signs in the NT. I have no interest in minimizing Mary either, because she is an outstanding example of faith. She spoke one of the great verses of the bible- “let it be done unto me according to thy word”. I often pray this prayer. John the Baptist also spoke a great word- “He must increase and I must decrease”.
So could someone more knowlegable help us understand the importance of Perpetual Virginity?
1
1beleevr
Guest
sonofmonica: Seems interesting that a church, who claims to have written the Bible, would leave ,“And Joseph did not have sexual relations with her until after her son was born,”(Matthew 1:25), in there, especially when they promote the idea of perpetual virginity. There were a lot of “dead spots”, in the lives of both Mary and Joseph! While Mary was present at certain times during christ’s ministry, Joseph was not mentioned after the Temple appearance! What may have happened during these “gaps”, in the timeline? Are you saying that Joseph was just a pawn, and did not get to consummate his marriage to Mary? And had the disciples received the Holy Spirit, before their appearance at the Cross? In keeping her a virgin, it would be easier to have statues of her, and elevate her to a loftier position!
T
Thomas_D_1
Guest
Hi
I’ll state at the outset that I believe myself to be a catholic. However I do not necessarily believe everything that the church tells me I have to believe especially when it is written fairly clearly in the Bible.ie as sonofmonica points out Mathew 1:25 and Mathew 12:45.
Fairly obvious and plain statements I would have thought. I have a problem with believing something that someone says I should believe when it is clearly written in the Bible otherwise.
Thomas_D
maranatha
I’ll state at the outset that I believe myself to be a catholic. However I do not necessarily believe everything that the church tells me I have to believe especially when it is written fairly clearly in the Bible.ie as sonofmonica points out Mathew 1:25 and Mathew 12:45.
Fairly obvious and plain statements I would have thought. I have a problem with believing something that someone says I should believe when it is clearly written in the Bible otherwise.
Thomas_D
maranatha
F
freedomwriter
Guest
These are not my interpretations manny. You yourself told me the jewish customs of how the children were to treat their parents. Now its my interpretation lol. I repeat nowhere in the NT does adelphos mean cousin. This is the last time i will share this with you.
F
freedomwriter
Guest
Be a man and read the bible yourself and stop listening to all these councils and traditions. Unless you are afaid you will be kick out of your church for studying the bible on your own. I also can say the same about catholic scholars like ludwig ott who admitted that there is no direct reference to Marys perpetual virginity in any text of scripture. As far as how old the earth is, i will have to study that one and get back to you later lol. Your alright manny God Bless
D
Don_Hepler
Guest
I can see you didn’t read the scripture carefully, If so you do not understand it. And I know your faith is different so this would seem a little hard to grasp. You see the Holy Ghost is a spirit It cannot impregnated anyone, Satan is also a spirit. If the Holy Ghost could impregnate then so can Satan (If that be true I would fear for your daughters). One being Holy the other being Evil. The reason the Holy Ghost came, was so Mary could endure the presence of the Highest (God). Of course you believe God is a spirit and I do not. God is a tangible holy being like his Son, Flesh and bone. Well Mary isn’t here to tell the story so we’ll just have to except it. But God works by natural Laws, and the seed was physical or Mary"s body would not receive it, It has to have physical form in order for her body to receive it, Maybe you need a doctors opinion, Read the scripture more carefully at least try and open your eyes.
B
bextah
Guest
please don’t shout me down if this seems ridiculous, I don’t claim to be an expert on the Bible…
I was taught that Mary being a virgin referred to her being born without the burden of original sin…??
I couldn’t tell you of anywhere that could back up my claim and it’s been a while since that class, but I like this idea and to me it makes sense - Mary was chosen because she was infinitely special - God had made her to be this most pure human in order to give life to His Only Son…
She would be ‘ever-virgin’ in the sense she would never have original sin…
I am reluctant to take the Bible literally although I did understand it to refer to the brothers of Jesus in that sense. Whether or not this is the case I don’t think it impacts on Mary’s virgin status, as people can choose to remain a virgin in the physical sense, but only God could decide for a person to enter this world without original sin…
just a thought …
I was taught that Mary being a virgin referred to her being born without the burden of original sin…??
I couldn’t tell you of anywhere that could back up my claim and it’s been a while since that class, but I like this idea and to me it makes sense - Mary was chosen because she was infinitely special - God had made her to be this most pure human in order to give life to His Only Son…
She would be ‘ever-virgin’ in the sense she would never have original sin…
I am reluctant to take the Bible literally although I did understand it to refer to the brothers of Jesus in that sense. Whether or not this is the case I don’t think it impacts on Mary’s virgin status, as people can choose to remain a virgin in the physical sense, but only God could decide for a person to enter this world without original sin…
just a thought …
D
deb216
Guest
I…um…wow…
The Holy Spirit is God
God is the Creator of all that is seen and unseen
God is not bound by the laws of nature
God did not need to take on a physical form to impregnant Mary; He made everything from nothing
Miracles are miracles because they defy logic
This is why private interpretation is so wrong.
D
Don_Hepler
Guest
My friend, explain original sin to me, I am a little lost here.please don’t shout me down if this seems ridiculous, I don’t claim to be an expert on the Bible…
I was taught that Mary being a virgin referred to her being born without the burden of original sin…??
I couldn’t tell you of anywhere that could back up my claim and it’s been a while since that class, but I like this idea and to me it makes sense - Mary was chosen because she was infinitely special - God had made her to be this most pure human in order to give life to His Only Son…
She would be ‘ever-virgin’ in the sense she would never have original sin…
I am reluctant to take the Bible literally although I did understand it to refer to the brothers of Jesus in that sense. Whether or not this is the case I don’t think it impacts on Mary’s virgin status, as people can choose to remain a virgin in the physical sense, but only God could decide for a person to enter this world without original sin…
just a thought …
D
Don_Hepler
Guest
thank you for your GREAT interpretation. The scriptures can be interpreted to satisfy your beliefs, Why do you think there are so many religions? But let me give you a different interpretation. If you are a logical thinker, and are not lead by the so called professors of religion who spent years in language deception, like the lawyers of today. And that you actually can think for yourself. We will take your thoughts and maybe get to some real point of sound doctrine. It is interesting that you believe in a God head, without body, parts, and passions, a mystical, magical God, that is no where, and is so larger he fills the universe and yet so small that he can dwell in my heart. Why does a God want to defy logic? and who says so. You have actually seen him and this is what he said “I don’t want anyone of my children to understand me” that would defy logic., or is it a dogma of your sound reasoning. I know you have seen him and that’s why you can attach this logical thinking to him. 1.) Holy Ghost is God. Holy Ghost is A God, but not the GOD the Father. Jesus is God the SON, separate 3 individuals. However Lets verify this structurally. First you cannot have a Son without a Father this defy s logic two separate, Father is above the Son. Holy Ghost is separate, is nether Father or Son, were it not so he could not dwell with in us. John 5:19 then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.I…um…wow…
The Holy Spirit is God
God is the Creator of all that is seen and unseen
God is not bound by the laws of nature
God did not need to take on a physical form to impregnant Mary; He made everything from nothing
Miracles are miracles because they defy logic
This is why private interpretation is so wrong.
20. For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21.For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22. For the Father judgeth no man but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.
Two individuals Father has given judgment to the Son. Three in the Godhead. Father A God, Son A God and Holy Ghost A God.
John 8: 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifed up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he , and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
He is the Son of Man… what man? The God man not the God spirit, but Man (flesh) God
Who are you to say he didn’t need to take on a physical body do you know the acts of God, he didn’t take it on… he already had his body as he raised Jesus from the dead that he too maybe like his father a immortal being. Miracles are for those who don’t understand, But for those who understand, it is not a miracle. God came to impregnate Mary so that a Son maybe born to represent him on earth. it is not a miracle it is a truth, And though you would like to believe on the fo fo the magic the enchantment, it defy logic, wake up and smell the roses. The Highest over shadow her. point blank, end of story. If you want to believe in mystics if you want to live in that kind of fantasy, enjoy it, but it’s not real, the scriptures don’t lie, and I don’t need dogma or ministers to lead my thoughts astray. Mary is Gods gift to his Son
D
Don_Hepler
Guest
Explain original sin, you’ve lost meplease don’t shout me down if this seems ridiculous, I don’t claim to be an expert on the Bible…
I was taught that Mary being a virgin referred to her being born without the burden of original sin…??
I couldn’t tell you of anywhere that could back up my claim and it’s been a while since that class, but I like this idea and to me it makes sense - Mary was chosen because she was infinitely special - God had made her to be this most pure human in order to give life to His Only Son…
She would be ‘ever-virgin’ in the sense she would never have original sin…
I am reluctant to take the Bible literally although I did understand it to refer to the brothers of Jesus in that sense. Whether or not this is the case I don’t think it impacts on Mary’s virgin status, as people can choose to remain a virgin in the physical sense, but only God could decide for a person to enter this world without original sin…
just a thought …
L
Louie1983
Guest
You are wrong very wrong to suggest that satan can do the same works as God by impregnating. This is very dangerous ground, you are liking the power of Stan to God, be extremely carefull here!
Satan lost many of his powers when he fell, although he still has a great deal of power satan cannot impregnate like with what happened to our lady. Your mind is limited to the fact some sort of “physical” action had to have happened for our lady to have becme impregnated by the holy spirit. It was by god’s word that this happened, god willed it, mary accepted and it was so. That’s why our lady responded “let it be done acording to thy word”. God can go outside the realm human nature to achieve things (he has one this many times). The second Our lady accepted the message from the archangel she was with child by the power and grace of god. There was no “physical” aspect here.
If you think this is weird or somewhat impossible then explain to me how Jesus heaed the sick by simply laying his hands on the sick? cured the lepers by saying simple words like “be healed”. He didn;t physically need to do anything, he willed for someone to be cured and by his own power they were healed! He willed it and it was so, there’s nothing more to it.
D
Don_Hepler
Guest
You see I don’t believe the Holy Ghost gave seed, no more than I believe Satan can. As I read your letter to me. I see that you think that it was Gods word that made it happen. How is it that you know the mind of God?
Y
YADA
Guest
You keep saying this but where is the biblical passage that states “*The brothers of Jesus were not Christians at the time of the curcifixion.” * Please cite for me Book, Chapter and Verse … clearly stated and not merely your “interpretation” gleaned from a passage
[respectfully asked of my Bible Alone Protestant Brethren]And where is it clearly written in scriptures that the brothers of Jesus were suddenly convinced of the Messianic Truth that Jesus was God Incarnate and become believers? You would think that that would be note worthy … and when that moentous event occurred - why did they not come and collect their mother from the care of John? After all, repsect and lovve for ones mother along with Christian duty would dictate that they take her into their own homes - as a son should and care for her!
**
In point of fact I would argue that not one individual was a “Christian” at the time of the Crucifixion … they [those who followed Jesus] were Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah. These individuals lived within the Jewish community - as such - for many years until they were fully expelled from the Jewish community. They in essence functioned at a Sect within Judaism …
L
Louie1983
Guest
With all due respect that is a pretty silly question. A no brainer really.
But i’ll answer it.
I don’t think i know the mind of god, his mind is revealed to us through his very actions and his word! The coming of Jesus Christ was foretold thousands of years prior to his eventual arrival. The blessed virgin and mother of God, Mary was prophesised about centuries before as the virgin who would give birth to the saviour, Jesus mission was prophesised centuries before (he was to defeat sin and redeem man!).
Everything that God has said and promised in his words has been fulfiled in his actions! Jesus as God incarnate came to earth to give testimony to the truth and to die for our sins before resurecting under his own power, he has unlocked the chain of sin and allowed us to once more be reconciled to God! Everything that was prophesised in words has been made true in action!
When we look at the above we know god has stayed true to his word, So when God declares that a VIRGIN will give birth, then it will be so. Mary was overshadowed by the holy spirit and was instantly made to be with child because God willed it, God has kept his word. This is how we know the mind of God, it’s not that hard to figure out either. God’s mind is love and mercy! What else would it be? He came down from heaven to rescue us from sin! He came to reval the truth to us, he bled for us, he died for us! What else could this reflect? It’s all love and mercy!
I don’t pretend to “read” God’s mind, i just pay attention to what he has said and done for us! From this, we can see what god wants for us.
Y
YADA
Guest
You might want to go and read what John Calvin wrote on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary … it really is quite “orthodox” from the Catholic perspective … and he brings out the theological arguements in very insightful and easily understood ways …
Then take a look at what Martin Luther wrote on this subject and Zwingli … search this out for yourself …
The Non-catholics posting here never really answer the question about the change in this belief and understanding from the 1500’s to this present age … how and why did this occur? Did the Protestant Christian’s of the latter 1800’s to the present time suddenly become better readers or just better “interpreters” of Holy Scripture? Were the Christian’s of the first 1800 years just that much more ignorant then people today?
If it is not a deal breaker - why has so much energy been wasted trying to teach that “Catholic’s” have it wrong and need to be ‘instructed’ on what scripture says?
N
nmc1a0
Guest
Excellent! Thanks for the tip, Yada. Will check out Calvin & Luther regarding the vital need to believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity. If salvation depends on it, I need to know it better and embrace it more strongly. For me, belief is enhanced by knowledge and understanding.
Y
YADA
Guest
While it was not common then [as it is not common in this day] there have always been those who consecrate themselves to a life of service to the Lord … you can read about this in the Book of Numbers … it covers the case of a young woman who consecrates herself by a vow to the Lord while still living in her Father’s house and alos when a married woman would make the same vow and the circumstances that would make that “vow” binding upon her father [or husband].
So while this might be “uncommon” it can be both natural and biblical … sorry to burst your misconceptions.
People live celebate lives today - and they can even be athiests … the whole worrld does not revolve around “sex” as Hollywood would have you believe. Sex is a normal human activity … the controlling of sex relations is a moral necessity in a world that seeks justice and protects the foundation of society …
I suggest you read a wonderful book by a socialogist: “Civilizing Sex - The Role of Chastity in the Common Good” … it speaks directly to the heart of the Judeo-Christian heritage and what the Ten Commandments [and what a a radical concept they were in at the time] did for the good of society.
Perhaps if you can recognize that ‘controlling sexual behavior’ is not a bad idea - you can understand what Christians knew for the first 1800 years or so - that the care of Jesus was the purpose of the Holy Family - that their focus was Jesus - that
… then take a look out our times - when killing babies has again become normal and accepted, euthanizing those that are seen as unproductive, burdensome etc and you will see why there is this move to ‘sexualize’ Mary … IMHO the devil is cunning … he takes the scriptures and perverts them for his own purposes … he is the lier of lies …
You cannot see yourself married and not sexually intimate …
Can you see yourself carrying the God-Child in your womb? Can you see yourself carefully taking care of the woman chosen by the Lod God to carry the Son of the Most High - lest anything happen to her or the Child? Raising the God-Child, responsile for His every need?
I personally do not think you can grasp what a life changing reality this would be - Take the most awe inspiring moment of closeness to God you ever experienced and magnify that moment to a lived reality of every moment of your life from that day to the day of your death and you will have the reality of Mary and Joseph’s life … to thinkk that they were not always and at all times struggling with that - “pondering what this means” in their hearts [their very souls!] all the time …
Y
YADA
Guest
And I have noticed that all of the early protestant reformers also held to the perpetual viginity of Mary and I wonder why later Protestants feel the need to change from this foundational Christain belief … does believing that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations and other children add something to your faith or to your understanding of the Gospel [Good News] of Salvation? Does it add to your understanding of the Mystery of the God Man Jesus and the Unity of the Trinity? If so how and why is this so important to modern day Protestant Christian?
We do have OT prophecy … Mary is the New Eve … what Eve’s “Yes” to the Serpent caused [Sin and Death - seperation from God] by her free act is undone by Mary’s “Yes” [let it be done unto me according to your Word] to God …
OT we have the Ark of the Covenant … it carries the Tablets [word of God written in stone - the Te Commandments], Manna [bread from heaven], the Staff of Aaron [a symbol of the High Priest] … this Ark was made with gold but not just any gold - Pure Gold … God dictated the making of the Ark completely - every nuance … This Ark was not touched - ever … even the Levites had to use poles to carry it … this ark even when touched to prevent its fall [to protect it] causing death to the one who reached out to steady it … David went out to the hill country for three months and danced [leaped for joy] before this Ark …
Mary is the Ark of the New and Everlasting Covenant … She carried in her womb the Word of God Made Flesh [and the very Word of God that caused her to be with child - "let it be done unto me according to your *Word - the same Word that was in the Begginning with God and Was God]. Mary does not carry the symbol of the high priest - Mary carries the High Priest, the Lord of Lords and King of Kings - the Highest Priest. Mary carries the Bread from Heaven with a capitol ‘H’ … not the bread given in the desert but the Bread that brings eternal life … Mary travels to the hill country for three months, John the Baptist leaps for joy in Elizabeth’s womb …
MAry was the vessel [Ark] purely made untouched even by those into whose care she was entrusted … created by God - formed and redeemed at her conception - to carry the Word Made Flesh, the Bread of Life and our atoning High Priest into the world. Her role is to point to Jesus … and thus we have the fullfillment of the Genesis prophesy … “…***I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel…” ***
Mary always points to the Son … “do whatever he tells you” …
She is not God nor divine in any way … Mary is the model of the Christian vocation … she offered her life in service to the Lord - without regard to her own personal safety or desires, trusting God in all ways and at all times. She is an example of a life lived for Jesus - a peson to follow in the faith …
- Status