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CGDouglas
Guest
What about external sources of documentation? An apocryphal text known as the ‘Gospel of James’ for example?
God Bless.
Chris.
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God Bless.
Chris.
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Janet1983
Guest
That thing that is non-canonical and unproven to be truthful?
Here is what Wikipedia has to say… That sums it up quite nicely:
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SonofMonica
Guest
Why is it that something has to be in the canon to be credible? Just because a book isn’t inspired by the Holy Spirit and just because the Catholic Church did not canonize a particular book, doesn’t mean that the book does not contain facts or historical information. Seems like an unfair standard to apply to texts concerning biblical figures that wouldn’t be applied to historical books about someone like George Washington.
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CGDouglas
Guest
Yet it contains truth as to a virgin birth?
So it has some form of truth, no?
God Bless.
Chris.
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Janet1983
Guest
“truth”… It coincides with the Bible, but that does not make the rest of this so-called Gospel truthful.
Did you know that rat poison is 99% good food and 1% poison? The fact that there is truth in something does not make it good as much as it does not make rat poison good rat food.
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CGDouglas
Guest
Bad analogy, it may not make it good, but it still contains truth, and if it has truth, we can count it as a slightly accurate and reliable source.
And when it comes to historical documentary, I guess you can throw Tacitus and Josephus away for evidence of Christ, since they weren’t Divinely inspired.
Oh and by the way, did you know that the Wikipedia quotation you referred to links to ‘This Rock’ on Catholic.com and to Origen, an Early Church Father who asserts that the brothers were of Joseph’s sons by a former wife?
God Bless.
Chris.
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Janet1983
Guest
I don’t count the Lord of the Rings as slightly accurate either, even though some things might coincide with reality and logic.
If you can take scripture by itself and it then does coincide with something else then this other source is correct in that one point. That does not mean however that scripture should be interpreted with those as a basis or even just read with those other verses as a basis or assumption.
One of the 2 is true and the Bible is that one… If the biblical truth is clear the comparison can be made.
C
CGDouglas
Guest
Another bad analogy, ‘The Lord of the Rings’ is not a history book, nor does it base on ascribing actions of somewhat current events in an historical or a documentary method.
Since Mary’s life isn’t that much stated in the Canonized Scripture, we look to other methods to gather more detailed information upon the historical figure.
We don’t know much about Herod the Great in Scripture apart from being a genocidal king, to know about the historical aspects of this person, we need to look at more sources.
God Bless.
Chris.
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Janet1983
Guest
The problem is that it is not proven that the information in this book is really true or just fictional.
It was said to be of dubious, recent appearance… I really do not quote Origen a lot, but his expressions about this book are pretty clear… Even to him that was fishy.
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CGDouglas
Guest
That’s why we need multiple sources to analyse one another.
We can gather the virgin birth of Christ from it; it can be coherent with:
Matthew 1:25::
Commentary on Matthew 1:25:
quote=Geneva Study Bible The word till, in the Hebrew language, gives us to understand that a thing will not come to pass in time to come: as Michal had no children till her death day, 2Sa 6:23. And in the last chapter of this evangelist: Behold, I am with you till the end of the world.
[/quote]
Source.
Wesley’s notes:
Source.
Jaimeson Fausset Brown Bible Commentary:
Source.
From these compilations of commentary, we can assert that:
*] The Hebrew language has meaning of till: A thing will not come to pass in time
*] It cannot be inferred that Joesph knew Mary afterwards, as in comparison to the usage in 2Sam 6:23
*] It does not exactly mean an implication either.
.
With the combination of the Protoevangelium of James, and the form of the Hebrew language, we can at least come to a conclusion that the Virginity of Mary is Perpetual.
Janet1983:
The Wikipedia article itself uses the words of dubious and recent appearance, Origen himself in raw quotation; I don’t think he saw it as fishy.
Origen himself stated:
Origen:
The first-fruit among men of purity, i.e. the firstborn, the purity which consists in chastity, I’m pretty sure means perpetual virginity, and he ascribes this purity as Mary, among women. And furthermore, Origen states that it is in harmony with reason.
God Bless.
Chris.
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Zundrah
Guest
What is the importance of Mary being a virgin? Does it matter? I still believe in Christ, even if Mary was a virgin or not.
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FCEGM
Guest
Yes, it matters very much, Jennifer, because each doctrine of the Church is connected to the others. Thus contemplating the mystery of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary reveals not so much her prerogatives and her glorious role in Salvation History, but more reveals Who it is Who was born to such a mother. God does nothing for no reason, thus the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has a great significance, pointing to the unique identity of her Son. Thus, we cannot isolate the Incarnation of Christ from other factors (i.e., His being born a Jew; His being born of a particular woman; that particular woman being a virgin before His birth and remaining a virgin after; that particular woman remaining virginal in the midst of a marriage.)
How would you would react if someone made unfounded claims against your mother? That’s how Catholics respond when the graces and prerogatives that God has bestowed on her because of her unique relationship with the Three Persons of the Most Holy Trinity, and as Mother of God Incarnate come under attack.
“Mary Most Holy is thus the “ever virgin.” Her prerogative is the consequence of her divine motherhood which totally consecrated her to Christ’s mission of redemption.” (From a catechesis of Pope John Paul II on the Blessed Virgin Mary given August 28, 1996.)
This is a doctrine to which all Catholics must give the assent of faith.Just as with your earlier difficulties with the Eucharist, Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is a doctrine to be prayed about - may the results be the same as previous.
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Zundrah
Guest
So why did Joseph marry her?Yes, it matters very much, Jennifer, because each doctrine of the Church is connected to the others. Thus contemplating the mystery of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary reveals not so much her prerogatives and her glorious role in Salvation History, but more reveals Who it is Who was born to such a mother. God does nothing for no reason, thus the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has a great significance, pointing to the unique identity of her Son. Thus, we cannot isolate the Incarnation of Christ from other factors (i.e., His being born a Jew; His being born of a particular woman; that particular woman being a virgin before His birth and remaining a virgin after; that particular woman remaining virginal in the midst of a marriage.)
How would you would react if someone made unfounded claims against your mother? That’s how Catholics respond when the graces and prerogatives that God has bestowed on her because of her unique relationship with the Three Persons of the Most Holy Trinity, and as Mother of God Incarnate come under attack.
“Mary Most Holy is thus the “ever virgin.” Her prerogative is the consequence of her divine motherhood which totally consecrated her to Christ’s mission of redemption.” (From a catechesis of Pope John Paul II on the Blessed Virgin Mary given August 28, 1996.)
This is a doctrine to which all Catholics must give the assent of faith.Just as with your earlier difficulties with the Eucharist, Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is a doctrine to be prayed about - may the results be the same as previous.
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FCEGM
Guest
Because God desired that she and her Child have a holy protector in the world (getting to Egypt and all that). This article might be of help:
bringyou.to/apologetics/a82.htm
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Zundrah
Guest
It’s not a big problem, just a small little obstacle that i will get over.
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FCEGM
Guest
Yes, you will.It’s not a big problem, just a small little obstacle that i will get over.
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Zundrah
Guest
Amen!Yes, you will.
P.S;
Mormons believe that God was a man once and that he walked the Earth just like Christ did, flesh and blood!
A
Angelo_Michael
Guest
**When people follow the commandments of the Lord they honor Mary because they respect the authority that she has brought forth which is Christ. For example, one can proclaim Mary’s perpetual virginity while trespassing against Christ’s commandments to not be called, “Lord,” and this is not respectful to Mary but is, in effect, using flattery to conceal rebellion.
Consider Matthew 7:21,**
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
Luke 6:46,
“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”
Matthew 15:7-9,
“Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
and Isaiah 29:9-16,
“Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?”
If flattery does not work on God or Christ, what makes people think it will work if applied to Mary [and/or the Holy Spirit]?
Moreover, since Christians are committing this error that was re-elucidated and condemned by Christ, and are also showing a condescending nature toward Jews (i.e. demanding, insisting, or inferring that they should convert to [a particular form of] Christianity), who follow the law of Moses; these same Christians would also be found to not have respected the lessons gleaned from the comparison of the Rechabites (found in Jeremiah 35) either. And this, in turn, would justify and propitiate Judaism moreso than promote Christianity [and/or repentance].
Consider Matthew 7:21,**
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
Luke 6:46,
“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”
Matthew 15:7-9,
“Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
and Isaiah 29:9-16,
“Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?”
If flattery does not work on God or Christ, what makes people think it will work if applied to Mary [and/or the Holy Spirit]?
Moreover, since Christians are committing this error that was re-elucidated and condemned by Christ, and are also showing a condescending nature toward Jews (i.e. demanding, insisting, or inferring that they should convert to [a particular form of] Christianity), who follow the law of Moses; these same Christians would also be found to not have respected the lessons gleaned from the comparison of the Rechabites (found in Jeremiah 35) either. And this, in turn, would justify and propitiate Judaism moreso than promote Christianity [and/or repentance].
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Zundrah
Guest
Flattery? When did I use flattery?
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Don_Hepler
Guest
Your theory is interesting, I collect books from Religious sects, and occasional other books not religiously associated. I found a old book, there was no Cover to it for is gone, and a few pages were torn off. However the ones that were readable were most interesting. I believe it is a religious book That was translated anciently I found this in my travels, discarded. I know that the dead sea scrolls caused much interest to me but don’t think of this that it is anything except for what it is, I look at it as a treasure that I have found. I thought I would share this with you because of what you have pondered. Here it goes…And calling upon the name of God, he beheld his glory again, for it was upon him; and he heard a voice, saying; Blessed art thou, Moses, for I, the Almighty, have chosen thee, and thou shalt be made stronger than many waters; for they shall obey thy command as if thou wert God. And lo, I am with thee, even unto the end of thy days; for thou shalt deliver my people from bondage, even Israel my chosen. And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the spirit of God. And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a soul which he beheld not; and he discerned them by the Spirit of God. And their numbers were great, even numberless as the sand upon the sea shore. And he beheld many lands; and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof. And It came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them: And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God and talked with him Face to face, And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things, Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth. And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many. But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds, that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man, but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. And It came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content. And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying; The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. and as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. And in a day when the children of men shall esteem my words as naught and take many of them from the book which thou shalt write, behold, I will raise up another like unto thee; and they shall be had again among the children of men among as many as shall believe…I thought you would like this as we ponder… are we alone… God bless
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