Jesus was an only son.. Mary did not have more children!!

[1beleevr]

sonofmonica: It is your choice to believe it or not, just as it is your choice to join the catholic church, or some other one! Listen, people from every religious persuasion probably uses profanity(orat least thinks about it) on occasion; but I was just pointing out to Rick that when being insulted by catholics, most if not all drop F-bombs! Please don’t patronize us, and try to say that catholics don’t cuss I am so glad that God removed that urge from me, several years ago:thumbsup: Do I still get upset, with things of this world; sure; I just stop, pray, and then ask my Lord for forgiveness for the negative thought

 

[1beleevr]

prieldedi: Thank you as well, for those kind words And you are my friend, and fellow Christian, regardless of our spiritual differences! And I do know what the aim of caf is; to define your faith, and also to debate. I was referred to this forum, after doing “battle” with many a catholic friend, or co-worker. And now I know more about the catholic belief, but am not ready to fully embrace the lifestyle I remember reading that Nicodemus and Joseph of Arithmethea, removed Jesus’s body(corpse) from the Cross, and “dressed” it for burial. He was then laid in a new grave, and of course rose on the third day:thumbsup: So, as far as I am concerned(can’t speak for all noncatholics), the Cross is empty. In fact, empty Cross+empty grave=victory:thumbsup:. I, myself, do not need a corpse on my Cross to remind me of the incredible sacrifice He made, and how He suffered! And would referring to the Shroud of Turin, be considered a non-sequitor, since it has nothing to do with anything else? It seems that this topic has(partially anyway) morphed into a discussion about whether believing in Mary’s perpetual virginity, is necessary for salvation, and in turn, eternal life. Jesus said that eternal life was believing in God, and the one whom He sent And I am also in the camp of believers, who by faith, know that the Holy Spirit is available to, and is in ALL believers! I mean, in Acts 2:38, Peter did declare,"Be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. We will believe differently, until that day that we meet on the golden shore! Bless you my friend. BTW, refresh my memory; what verse in James?

 

[1beleevr]

arandur: Your ignorance lies in your belief that faith without works is dead! You should have included Paul’s views on faith versus works! Arrogance is blindly believing that if you aren’t catholic, you can’t know the whole Truth! Jesus never said that!

 

[guanophore]

I am the one “floating” the possibility of her having relations, and the possibility that she was married. And I believe we were talking about whether or not believing in her perpetual virginiity was required for salvation! The statement that I made about conveying the message to OTHER Christians that if they didn’t believe in it, that they were not embracing the “full” Gospel.ot guanophore all twisted up’ but it doesn’t take a whole lot to do that. For the record, I believe that you can get to Heaven even if you don’t believe that she was a perpetual virgin:thumbsup:

The problem, 1beleevr, is not your assessment of what is “required for salvation”, but the idea that you have put yourself in a position to determine these elements. This, in itself, is a departure from the Apostolic Faith. There is ONE deposit of Divine Revelation given to the Church. It is a “once for all” deposit that consists of the preaching of the Apostles (Sacred Tradition) and the Holy Scriptures. The two should not be separated, and the elements of each are unified with themselves, and with one another.

The idea that it is ok to peicemeal them, and determine that some elements are “not required for salvation” denies, in itself, what the Apostles beleived and taught. They taught ONE FAITTH, One Church, One Baptism.

 

[guanophore]

Hey, Rick Holland: Some of the best and nastiest insults I have gotten when discussing things spiritual, have come from catholics! Whoo, boy those catholics I work with can sure drop the F-bombs, and G… D"s! It really makes them mad, when I react with a "God bless you and a smile

You are heaping hot coals on their heads!

May God continue to bless your wonderful witness.

 

[Arandur]

arandur: Your ignorance lies in your belief that faith without works is dead! You should have included Paul’s views on faith versus works!

You must take James AND Paul. You seem to want to throw out James. They are not mutually exclusive in their views. Or how about John 15:14 “You are my friends, IF you keep my commands.” Straight from the mouth of Jesus. Would you deny Him?

Do you really believe that you can have real faith, that necessary belief in God and love for Him, without acting on that faith? That is not real faith! Do you really believe you can have faith without following the first and second Greatest Commandments (which require action)? (I don’t think you do.)

My friend, Satan has that kind of faith. Satan believes in God, believes in Jesus. He knows for a certainty of Him. And yet Satan lacks real faith and love in God because he does not follow His commandments.

I think you really do agree with what the Scriptures are saying, with what I said, that faith without works is not true faith. You can say “faith alone” in that context, because it is true faith that is important, but true faith necessarily leads to good works.

So no ignorance there. Was I ignorant elsewhere?

Arrogance is blindly believing that if you aren’t catholic, you can’t know the whole Truth! Jesus never said that!

But I never said that, either! So I guess the arrogance is only upon the one putting words in my mouth.

I say that the Catholic Church contains, by Divine Institution (by Jesus and the Spirit, by their very design and purpose) the fullness of truth (it IS Christ’s Body). That said, no one can really “know” the whole Truth of God because that is infinite and we are not. I sure hope we will still have much to learn throughout eternity with Him. I also didn’t say that you can’t know Truth if you’re not Catholic (though any Truth you find puts you that much more in union with the Church). You certainly can, and the Church has affirmed this.

 

[Good_Fella]

arandur: Your ignorance lies in your belief that faith without works is dead! You should have included Paul’s views on faith versus works! Arrogance is blindly believing that if you aren’t catholic, you can’t know the whole Truth! Jesus never said that!

St. Paul doesn’t teach us that we are saved by faith alone. Rather we are “saved by grace” in “faith working through love” and an “obedience of faith”. Pay more attention to the words of Jesus, whom the apostle would never contradict but whose word he preached:
*
“Well done, my good and faithful servant.”*

These must have been the first words our Lord spoke to his Blessed Mother when she reached heaven in glory body and soul on account of her undivided and total dedication for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. And he must have added:

“Many are the women of proven worth, but you have excelled them all.”
Proverbs 31, 29

PAX :heaven:

 

[1beleevr]

guanophore:You have deluded yourself into believing that I have set my own "standards for salvation, which could not be further from the truth Belief in Christ is the beginning, and until now, I have NEVER heard of believing in Mary’s perpetual virginity, as being part of salvation. You however keep insisting it was a truth of apostolic succession, and prieldedi said something to the effect of,“well God MAY have revealed it to them later.” So you see, you(catholics are as guilty as anyone of shaping things to fit your agenda When you say, well it probably was, or I suppose it could have been; you are assuming facts not in evidence. And I just thought of another reason for not becoming a catholic: I have thicker skin than most of you:thumbsup: You guys are so sensitive and in the flesh. Why do you care what people think

 

[guanophore]

Your ignorance lies in your belief that faith without works is dead!

Perhaps you can explain this?

You should have included Paul’s views on faith versus works!

Paul was contrasting works of the Law (done without faith) with placing faith in a Person. He is not saying that works are necessarily “opposed” to faith. He also says “the only thing that counts is faith, working through love”. It seems that you are not making a distinction between Holy Works, and works of the flesh.

Arrogance is blindly believing that if you aren’t catholic, you can’t know the whole Truth! Jesus never said that!

I am not sure if this is arrogance, but being Catholic does not necessarily make on know the whole Truth either. Although the fullness of God’s Revelation of Himself is found in the Catholic Church, many baptized Catholics have not learned it either.

guanophore:You have deluded yourself into believing that I have set my own "standards for salvation, which could not be further from the truth

I can only go by the content of your posts. Perhaps I have been deluded by what you have said. Your posts make it clear that you have espoused beliefs that are a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. Perhaps you did not make them up yourself, and you got them from someone else who made them up?

Belief in Christ is the beginning, and until now, I have NEVER heard of believing in Mary’s perpetual virginity, as being part of salvation.

This makes a lot of sense, and reinforces what I have been saying about most modern day Protestants never having heard the Truth of the Apostolic faith.

You however keep insisting it was a truth of apostolic succession, and prieldedi said something to the effect of,"well God MAY have revealed it to them later."

Are you telling me that you honestly don;t think the Apostles knew whether or not Jesus had siblings of his Mother;s womb?

It was not the revelation of it that came later, but their understanding of it.

Jesus taught that the Gospel was for everyone. However, Peter and the 11 did not “get it” for a long time! Jesus had to give Peter the vision of the sheet and the unclean animals, then pour out the Spirit upon the house of Cornelius before Peter got it. Was this new revelation? No, it was Peter that was unable to grasp it previously.

So you see, you(catholics are as guilty as anyone of shaping things to fit your agenda When you say, well it probably was, or I suppose it could have been; you are assuming facts not in evidence.

I am sorry, I am not following you.

The whole point of using condition language like “may”, “probably” or “possibly” is because we cannot assume facts that are not in evidence.

And I just thought of another reason for not becoming a catholic: I have thicker skin than most of you:thumbsup: You guys are so sensitive and in the flesh. Why do you care what people think

I find this a profoundly judgemental and condescending statement.

I care what people think because the Truth matters. Jesus entrusted the fullness of His Truth to the Church, and charged the Apostles with the responsibilty to guard it and teach it. Part of that Truth is that Mary had only one child, His name is Jesus.

When we begin to abandon parts of the One Deposit of Faith, the whole will unravel quickly. When someone comes along and decides “this is not essential”, the next person will come along and take out somethint else. Before you know it, there will be thousands of denominations all claiming to know which aspects are “essential” and which ones can be omitted.

 

[Prieldedi]

prieldedi: Thank you as well, for those kind words. And you are my friend, and fellow Christian, … now I know more about the catholic belief, but am not ready to fully embrace the lifestyle I remember reading that Nicodemus and Joseph of Arithmethea, removed Jesus’s body(corpse) from the Cross, and “dressed” it for burial. He was then laid in a new grave, and of course rose on the third day. So, as far as I am concerned(can’t speak for all noncatholics), the Cross is empty. In fact, empty Cross+empty grave=victory. I, myself, do not need a corpse on my Cross to remind me of the incredible sacrifice He made, and how He suffered! And would referring to the Shroud of Turin, be considered a non-sequitor, since it has nothing to do with anything else? It seems that this topic has(partially anyway) morphed into a discussion about whether believing in Mary’s perpetual virginity, is necessary for salvation, and in turn, eternal life. Jesus said that eternal life was believing in God, and the one whom He sent And I am also in the camp of believers, who by faith, know that the Holy Spirit is available to, and is in ALL believers! I mean, in Acts 2:38, Peter did declare,"Be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. We will believe differently, until that day that we meet on the golden shore! Bless you my friend. BTW, refresh my memory; what verse in James?

… and prieldedi said something to the effect of,“well God MAY have revealed it to them later.” … And I just thought of another reason for not becoming a catholic: I have thicker skin than most of you. You guys are so sensitive and in the flesh. Why do you care what people think

You are the one who told me “And you really had to go out on a limb to use that sentence about James.” Could it be the one in Galatians 1:19 “But I did not see any other apostle except James, the Lord’s brother.”? Check back my Post # 757 to see if that’s the one.

I can’t say if anyone will lose his/her salvation if he/she does not believe in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. You mention several passages that we believe too, but we Catholics follow other passages that Protestants seem to pay little attention to.

Case in point: Hebrews 13:17, “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are concerned for your souls and are accountable for them. Let this be a joy for them rather than a burden, which would be of no advantage for you.” The first Protestants (Luther, Calvin, others) chose to disregard this passage. They had leaders and did not submit to them. This command by Paul gives you no choice.

The first Protestants also disregarded what Jesus said in Matthew 23,3, “So you shall do and observe all they say, but do not do as they do.” Luther & company did not “do and observed what they said”, instead they rebelled, expelled 7 books from the Bible, and changed Christianity forever.

This is the passage I mentioned: John 16:12-13, “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.”

Tell me of one instance that Protestants have USED this passage. Who among you has received ALL THE TRUTH? I ask because you accept NO AUTHORITY. Even if one of you Pastors did receive it, who is he? Will the rest of the Protestants SUBMIT to him? Answer: NEVER. Protestants read lots and lots of Bible passages that have no use at all for them. How come they claim that the Bible is their source of Authority if they DISREGARD countless of passages from it?

If you believe that the Bible is the Word of God you have to accept it ALL. That’s the main difference between Catholics and Protestants, we leave no passage out, we take those passages that are hard to take.

We submit to Authority because it’s in the Bible. We say “Blessed Virgin Mary” because it’s in the Bible. We say Mary is Queen of Heavens because She is the Mother of the King of Heavens, and Queen Mothers sit at the side of the King, it’s in the Bible. We depict Jesus at the Cross because it’s in the Bible. Just look at what happened when Jesus living body became a corpse:

Matthew 27:51-52, “Just then the curtain of the Temple sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom, the earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and several holy people who had died were raised to life…”

We don’t interpret the Bible because it’s in the Bible, Peter told us not to:

2 Peter 1, 20-21, “Know this well: no prophecy of Scripture can be handed over to private interpretation, since no prophecy comes from human decision, for it was men of God, moved by the Holy Spirit, who spoke.” And also 2 Peter 3:16, “He speaks of these things in all his letters. There are, however, some points in them that are difficult to understand, which people who are ignorant and immature in their faith twist, as they do with the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.”

We believe in the Church and in the Church leaders because it’s in the Bible: Hebrews 13:17 above and also 1 Timothy 3:15, “If I delay, you will know how you ought to conduct yourself in the household of God, that is, the Church of the living God, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth.” The Bible doesn’t say so about itself, only about the Church. It’s in the Bible.

We believe in the Eucharist because it’s in the Bible: John 6:35, Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall never be hungry, and whoever believes in me shall never be thirsty. John 6:51 I am the living bread which has come from heaven; whoever eats of this bread will live forever. John 6:53, “… Truly, I say to you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” What do Protestants do about these passages… and when… and how… AND WHY?

Jesus wants us to do ALL the things He said, even those that WERE NOT RECORDED IN THE BIBLE, which by the way, it’s in the Bible (John 21:25). He doesn’t wants us to be “picky” and choose only those passages that “sound” very Christian and leave out others because they are “hard to take”. This reminds me of the JFK phrase that I’ll put it this way: “We are Catholics not because it’s easy, but because it’s hard”.

God bless you

 

[Holly3278]

many say jesus had more brothers because on the cross, “When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!” John wasnt marys son! ?? anyone care to elaborate on these beliefs…

would love to hear from anyone! =]

Here’s a little elaboration from the Catechism:

**499 **The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary’s real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. In fact, Christ’s birth “did not diminish his mother’s virginal integrity but sanctified it.” And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the “Ever-virgin”.

 

[elvisman]

Thanks Elvis,

Try not to get too overly secure; Trent had something to say about that…right?
Perhaps you should have moved a little further in John 15 over to the second half of the that verse??

The rest of that chapter is about his Church (the Catholic Church).
Don’t really understand your point.
John 15:20-27
Remember the word I spoke to you, ‘No slave is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you (just like many Protestants do). If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. (Too bad Protestants don’t)

---

**And they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know the one who sent me. **
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin. (Sorry, pal)
**Whoever hates me also hates my Father. **

---

**If I had not done works among them that no one else ever did, they would not have sin; but as it is, they have seen and hated both me and my Father. **
**But in order that the word written in their law might be fulfilled, ‘They hated me without cause.’ **
**"When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me. **
And you also testify, because you have been with me from the beginning."

God bless Christ’s only Church!

 

[Janet1983]

The rest of that chapter is about his Church (the Catholic Church).
Don’t really understand your point.
John 15:20-27
Remember the word I spoke to you, ‘No slave is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you (just like many Protestants do).

Let’s see… what examples do we have for that…

15th century:
Jan Hus (persecuted and killed by Catholics)
Jerome of Prague (persecuted and killed by Catholics)
John Oldcastle (persecuted and killed by Catholics)

16th century:
John Lambert (persecuted and killed by Catholics)
Nicholas Ridley (persecuted and killed by Catholics)
George Marsh (persecuted and killed by Catholics)
Felix Manz (persecuted and killed by fellow Protestants)

17th century:
John Brown (Covenanter) (persecuted and killed by fellow Protestants)
Richard Cameron (Covenanter) (persecuted and killed by fellow Protestants)
Donald Cargill (Covenanter) (persecuted and killed by fellow Protestants)
James Renwick (Covenanter) (persecuted and killed by fellow Protestants)
Phillip Powell (persecuted and killed by Protestants)
William Richardson (persecuted and killed by Protestants)

18th century:
Jean Calas (persecuted and killed by Catholics)
Lars Ulstadius (Pietist persecuted and killed by Protestants)

19th century:
Bernard Mizeki (Protestant killed by Natives on the mission field)
George N. Gordon (Protestant killed by Natives on the mission field)
John Coleridge Patteson (Protestant killed by Natives on the mission field)

20th century:
Dietrich Bonhoeffer (Protestant killed by Nazis)
“Dusty” Miller (Protestant POW in WW2 in Japan executed by Japanese because of his faith)
Mehdi Dibaj (Iranian Christian killed because of “apostasy”)
Peter Sillence Fleming (Protestant killed by Natives on the mission field)
Janani Jakaliya Luwum (African Protestant killed by the regime of his nation)

I guess there have been a whole lot of black sheep on either side and outside of the Christian community… It is factually wrong to say that the Catholics have only been on the receiving side of persecution…

 

[SonofMonica]

sonofmonica: It is your choice to believe it or not, just as it is your choice to join the catholic church, or some other one! Listen, people from every religious persuasion probably uses profanity(orat least thinks about it) on occasion; but I was just pointing out to Rick that when being insulted by catholics, most if not all drop F-bombs! Please don’t patronize us, and try to say that catholics don’t cuss I am so glad that God removed that urge from me, several years ago:thumbsup: Do I still get upset, with things of this world; sure; I just stop, pray, and then ask my Lord for forgiveness for the negative thought

Sorry, but your diversionary tactic of proposing the idea that Catholics disproportionately use profane language in a thread about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary smacks of incredulity. This is equivalent to being backed in a corner and using a Your Momma joke. There is no reason to take you seriously, whenever you randomly interject things like that. You know, the Orthodox believe in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity, as well. Would you like to interject anything about the character of Orthodox Christians you come into contact with daily? Please stop the holier-than-thou nonsense.

 

[SonofMonica]

Let’s see… what examples do we have for that…

You’re missing the point. The question is who Jesus was talking to. He was talking to the Catholic Church, not to Protestants. Protestants were not there, as evidenced by the fact that your anecdotes begin in the 15th century.

 

[elvisman]

Let’s see… what examples do we have for that…

15th century:
Jan Hus (persecuted and killed by Catholics)
Jerome of Prague (persecuted and killed by Catholics)
John Oldcastle (persecuted and killed by Catholics)

16th century:
John Lambert (persecuted and killed by Catholics)
Nicholas Ridley (persecuted and killed by Catholics)
George Marsh (persecuted and killed by Catholics)
Felix Manz (persecuted and killed by fellow Protestants)

17th century:
John Brown (Covenanter) (persecuted and killed by fellow Protestants)
Richard Cameron (Covenanter) (persecuted and killed by fellow Protestants)
Donald Cargill (Covenanter) (persecuted and killed by fellow Protestants)
James Renwick (Covenanter) (persecuted and killed by fellow Protestants)
Phillip Powell (persecuted and killed by Protestants)
William Richardson (persecuted and killed by Protestants)

18th century:
Jean Calas (persecuted and killed by Catholics)
Lars Ulstadius (Pietist persecuted and killed by Protestants)

19th century:
Bernard Mizeki (Protestant killed by Natives on the mission field)
George N. Gordon (Protestant killed by Natives on the mission field)
John Coleridge Patteson (Protestant killed by Natives on the mission field)

20th century:
Dietrich Bonhoeffer (Protestant killed by Nazis)
“Dusty” Miller (Protestant POW in WW2 in Japan executed by Japanese because of his faith)
Mehdi Dibaj (Iranian Christian killed because of “apostasy”)
Peter Sillence Fleming (Protestant killed by Natives on the mission field)
Janani Jakaliya Luwum (African Protestant killed by the regime of his nation)

I guess there have been a whole lot of black sheep on either side and outside of the Christian community… It is factually wrong to say that the Catholics have only been on the receiving side of persecution…

This is pointless.
Who said Catholics were the ONLY ones persecuted? I can give you a list of persecuted homosexuals and abortion doctors - but that doesn’t mean they are following Christ. And it CERTAINLY doesn’t mean persecuted Protestants belong to his Church.

Catholics are certainly the MOST persecuted Christian Church and Anti-Catholicism really is the only accepted prejudice in our society.

 

[1beleevr]

sonofmonica: Still waiting for a reason to take you seriously I was merely responding to a post by Rick Holland; someone who has also felt the wrath of catholics! And I was referring to those catholics that I have come in contact with; wasn’t painting all with the same broad brush! As for me, people can persecute or curse me allday long, because I have the peace of Christ, and have finally learned to “turn the other cheek”, as Or Saviour told us today! None of us Christians could come close to enduring the persecution that His disciples went through; yet there are some who say,“we are being bashed!” Who cares; carry on for Christ and put on your big boy pants! And I do not appreciate being called holier-than-thou!:

 

[1beleevr]

guan: It is neither judgemental, nor condescending! If you had cared to read down further(and for that matter, many instances in the forum), you would see that most of the complaints about being bashed, or persecuted, come from the catholic posters! I have never complained about being persecuted, cursed at(just pointed it out), because it doesn’t matter! Jesus and His disciples were routinely ridiculed, laughed at, persecuted, and bashed. And they persevered; so why can’t we? Oh my gosh, Heaven forbid should someone disagree with us or call us a name!

 

[Janet1983]

This is pointless.
Who said Catholics were the ONLY ones persecuted? I can give you a list of persecuted homosexuals and abortion doctors - but that doesn’t mean they are following Christ. And it CERTAINLY doesn’t mean persecuted Protestants belong to his Church.

Exactly. Saying that Catholics were persecuted and giving this as an example for His Church being persecuted and as proof for them being the true Church however is exactly as pointless.
I am not saying that Catholics are not Christian, but I am saying that there are Christians outside of the CC that were persecuted as well and partly by members of the CC who were not as charitable as they should have been, had they been Christian.
Persecutions are simply not Christian. Be it that there were Protestants persecuting other Protestants or persecuting Catholics or be it Catholics persecuting other Catholics or Protestants.
It doesn’t give proof for the persecuted to be Christian, but it does give proof for the individuals that persecuted others to have a severe lack of the charity and love given by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mike5575]

many say jesus had more brothers because on the cross, “When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!” John wasnt marys son! ?? anyone care to elaborate on these beliefs…

would love to hear from anyone! =]

I never took that verse as evidence that St. John was Mary’s biological son, but since she Mary gave birth to the Son of God, that would make her the spiritual mother of all humanity.