"Jesus was non denominational"

[TimothyH]

The Evangelical in the original post has no clue what he is talking about. Jesus was absolutely denominational.

First of all, Jesus was Jewish.

He was circumcised at 8 days old when his parent brought him to the temple and met Simeon. That’s what they were bringing him there for, circumcision, which Jewish boys recieve at 8 days old. Circumcision makes them part of the Jewish covenant family of God. Only Jews were circimcised becasue only Jews were part of the covenant family of God. Circumcision means he was Jewish.

Not only was Jesus Jewish, but he was most likely a member of the Essene sect of Jews. There were three sects - Pharisees, Sadduces and Essene. Jesus was probably a member of the Essene “Denomination” within Judaism.

The Evangelical in the OP obviously knows nothing about the different sects in Judaism and shows his ignorace when he says that Jesus was “Nondemoninational.” Nothing could be further from the truth. They simply don’t know what they are talking about.

Jesus’ baptism was a ritual “mikveh” purification bath. It was a symbol of conversion and repentance, and a physical purification. Essene Jews immersed themselves almost daily so that they would be ready, pure, for the coming messiah. Through his participation in the mikveh, Jesus raised it to the status of sacrament.

essene.com/B’nai-Amen/MysticalImmersion.htm

-Tim-

 

[Ophelia23]

Actually, this is false. In the Book of Acts, we see the Apostles arguing over whether pagans/gentiles who become Christians must follow the Jewish law. After some dispute, Peter changes his mind and settles the matter with a ‘no.’ The gentile Christians never became Jewish by and large.

Correct, the gentile Christians never became Jewish. However, those who became Christian after being brought up Jewish identified themselves as Christian Jew. I have texts to back this up, but they are unfortunately not available at work with me. The University of Saint Thomas’s Catholic Studies program has a very interesting class regarding Christian Jews.

 

[bilop]

Actually, of course, Judaism didn’t ‘work’ that way even at the time. The Christian idea of ‘salvation’ and the Jewish idea of ‘salvation’ were and are entirely different.

The key question being: ‘Saved from what, exactly?’

I do understand how fitting pre-crucifixion Jews to the Christian view of ‘salvation’ makes sense to Christians, I’m merely suggesting that finding out what Judaism at the time was all about might be interesting.

Well, from a Christian perspective, we don’t really worry about what the Jews thought about salvation at the time. We believe Christ brought us the truth, and those Jews were bound by that truth, to the extent it was revealed to them.

In our teachings, there is no Catholic Heaven or Hell, and Jews go someplace else. It’s the same Heaven and Hell for everybody.

God Bless

 

[JerryZ]

Sure.

Before Christ’s crucifixion, Jews could be saved by following the Mosaic law. Sin offerings at the Temple actually forgave sins.

These Jews went to Limbo Patrum (Limbo of the fathers) to await Christ’s death and resurrection. When we say in the Apostles Creed that Christ “descended into Hell”, we mean He went to this Limbo to preach to the “Old Testament Faithful” and bring all of them (or at least all who didn’t reject Him) to Heaven. It is also speculated that “righteous pagans” (pagans who followed the natural law, and sought truth) got the same opportunity at salvation.

Once Christ died, the old covenant was complete. The Jewish law nolonger bound Jews, the Jewish rituals no longer brought forgiveness and salvation. The symbol of this was the tearing of the Temple veils. Judaism lost its power to save, as it had been transfered to the Christian Church, through baptism and the other Sacraments.

God Bless

Oh Boy :doh2: Better go back to Theology 101!

If what you stated there was true! JESUS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN NEEDED!

The sin offering COVERED the sins of the jews for the year but it required the Messiah’s coming to finally atone and forgive them definitevily which is what Jesus did.

Also you are confusing a “religion” with a “race” Jews today continue to be Jews even if they convert to Christianity. Will they need to keep the old covenant Laws?
YOU BETCHA! Jesus only changed the Dietary Laws not the 10 commandments.
Will the new Jews circumcize their children? Well if the family where the newborn comes in is Christian they don’t NEED to. But if they do that does not affect their Christianity in the least bit because they ARE jews and circumcision is a ritual that joins them to the family of Abraham.
It is something that was required of their race.
The Apostles justly decided that gentiles did not need to become Jews in order to become Christians. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit achieves that. Hence they did not need to be circumcized in order to become Christians.
Also they also did not need to follow the dietary laws but guess what WE DO NEED to follow the 10 commandments.
Many laws of the old covenant are still followed today by us Christians especially the Catholic faith that has Bishops, Priests and Deacons, they represent the continuation of the Jews Levitic laws, except that now we have 1 High Priest, Jesus in Heaven alive and forever, something the Jews of the OT did not have.
The Temple has also been relocated NO not to Rome.
The old covenant was not trown out of the way it was perfected and where needed Corrected where man had made undue changes like the Divorce law for example. Jesus there explicitly tells the pharisee that it was not intended to be allowed and that man had made that change “unlawfully”.

 

[edwest2]

An evangelical I know was concerned about having thier 4 year old attened another
Neighbors house that is Jewish to attened a Hanakah party

And I said well Jesus was Jewish

They responded no Jesus was non denominational

Then I went into how Hanakah is in the book of Macabees and an historical celebration that Christians can embrace

They continued to look at me like I was from a different planet

Attend a Hanukku party? Sure, why not?

Jesus was non-demoninational? That’s not even a joke or misconception. It’s not even a good lie. Jesus was true God and true man. Yes, He was Jewish but he didn’t found a Jewish Church, and even the Gentiles were allowed in.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Oh Boy :doh2: Better go back to Theology 101!

If what you stated there was true! JESUS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN NEEDED!

The sin offering COVERED the sins of the jews for the year but it required the Messiah’s coming to finally atone and forgive them definitevily which is what Jesus did.

Also you are confusing a “religion” with a “race” Jews today continue to be Jews even if they convert to Christianity. Will they need to keep the old covenant Laws?
YOU BETCHA! Jesus only changed the Dietary Laws not the 10 commandments.
Will the new Jews circumcize their children? Well if the family where the newborn comes in is Christian they don’t NEED to. But if they do that does not affect their Christianity in the least bit because they ARE jews and circumcision is a ritual that joins them to the family of Abraham.
It is something that was required of their race.
The Apostles justly decided that gentiles did not need to become Jews in order to become Christians. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit achieves that. Hence they did not need to be circumcized in order to become Christians.
Also they also did not need to follow the dietary laws but guess what WE DO NEED to follow the 10 commandments.
Many laws of the old covenant are still followed today by us Christians especially the Catholic faith that has Bishops, Priests and Deacons, they represent the continuation of the Jews Levitic laws, except that now we have 1 High Priest, Jesus in Heaven alive and forever, something the Jews of the OT did not have.
The Temple has also been relocated NO not to Rome.
The old covenant was not trown out of the way it was perfected and where needed Corrected where man had made undue changes like the Divorce law for example. Jesus there explicitly tells the pharisee that it was not intended to be allowed and that man had made that change “unlawfully”.

Regarding divorce:

bible.cc/matthew/19-8.htm

bible.cc/matthew/19-9.htm

Peace,
Ed

 

[bilop]

Oh Boy :doh2: Better go back to Theology 101!

If what you stated there was true! JESUS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN NEEDED!

The sin offering COVERED the sins of the jews for the year but it required the Messiah’s coming to finally atone and forgive them definitevily which is what Jesus did.

Also you are confusing a “religion” with a “race” Jews today continue to be Jews even if they convert to Christianity. Will they need to keep the old covenant Laws?
YOU BETCHA! Jesus only changed the Dietary Laws not the 10 commandments.
Will the new Jews circumcize their children? Well if the family where the newborn comes in is Christian they don’t NEED to. But if they do that does not affect their Christianity in the least bit because they ARE jews and circumcision is a ritual that joins them to the family of Abraham.
It is something that was required of their race.
The Apostles justly decided that gentiles did not need to become Jews in order to become Christians. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit achieves that. Hence they did not need to be circumcized in order to become Christians.
Also they also did not need to follow the dietary laws but guess what WE DO NEED to follow the 10 commandments.
Many laws of the old covenant are still followed today by us Christians especially the Catholic faith that has Bishops, Priests and Deacons, they represent the continuation of the Jews Levitic laws, except that now we have 1 High Priest, Jesus in Heaven alive and forever, something the Jews of the OT did not have.
The Temple has also been relocated NO not to Rome.
The old covenant was not trown out of the way it was perfected and where needed Corrected where man had made undue changes like the Divorce law for example. Jesus there explicitly tells the pharisee that it was not intended to be allowed and that man had made that change “unlawfully”.

No, I believe it is you who are wrong.

Jesus Christ was absolutely required, the Gates of Heaven were closed until He came. Hence, Limbo Patrum, which was on the outer edge of Hell. No one was saved until they accepted Christ.

Ethnic Jews who are Catholic have no obligation to follow the ritual laws of Judaism. None. Zero. They are bound by the laws of the Church like every other Catholic.

There is no Temple today, it’s not in Rome or anywhere. We don’t practice animal sacrifice anymore.

God Bless

 

[chaunceygardner]

Regardless, a Catholic is never permitted to celebrate Hanukkah with Jews. That equates to worshipping idols and heresy.

Hmmm…based on that reasoning: 1) the Christian God and the Jewish God are not one and the same (as **The Bucket ** and others stated), and 2) Jesus would not have been considered worthy of being a member of the very faith he started since He too celebrated Hannukah. (plus a party is NOT worship; based on that thinking we shouldn’t attend any Halloween or Super Bowl parties, or even the wedding receptions for non-Catholics).

Otherwise, I come back after a few hours and find dozens of great posts. Interesting stuff.

 

[TimothyH]

Correct, the gentile Christians never became Jewish. However, those who became Christian after being brought up Jewish identified themselves as Christian Jew. I have texts to back this up, but they are unfortunately not available at work with me. The University of Saint Thomas’s Catholic Studies program has a very interesting class regarding Christian Jews.

Much to your point, we have to understand that to the first Christians, there was no distinction between Christian and Jew. Christianity was inherently Jewish.

They did him homage and then returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and they were continually in the temple praising God. (Luke 24:52-53)

***And day by day, attending the temple together **and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, (Acts 2:46)

**Now Peter and John were going up to the temple *at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. (Acts 3:1)

The first Christians continued to go to the Temple in Jerusalem. Temple worship continued, even for believers in and followers of Christ. Paul is documented as having offered gifts in the temple after his conversion to Christianity.

***Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself with them and went into the temple, to give notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering *presented for every one of them. (Acts 21:26)

Judaism and Christianity only began to split after the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. Until that time there was a clear nexus of Temple ritual, Rabinnic Judaism and Christianity.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

No, he knew he was God. It is all over Scripture. He clearly knew that he was divine.

Christ was not worshipping himself .He was in intimate communion with God the Father.

God the Father loves God the Son. God the Son loves God the Father. Each pours himself out completely for the sake of the other. That’s the nature of the Trinity and that’s exactly what Christ did on the Cross. He humbled himself, made himself to be a slave, obediently carrying out the mission given him by the Father, even to his own death. He poured himself our for his Heavenly Father.

His life was not self worship, but rather a negation of self and commuion with the Father.

-Tim-

 

[Razanir]

Much to your point, we have to understand that to the first Christians, there was no distinction between Christian and Jew. Christianity was inherently Jewish.

That’s in part because, as I describe it, Acts is about how we evolved from being a sect of Judaism to being our own religion

 

[Kaninchen]

Well, from a Christian perspective, we don’t really worry about what the Jews thought about salvation at the time.

Exactly.

The problem is that it does tend to lead to what might be described as ‘inventing a Judaism that seems useful to the argument.’

Now, as you can imagine, what Catholics believe isn’t very important (though the consequences may be) to me but, from time to time, I get a tendency to think it a good idea to mention that the ‘invented Judaism’ doesn’t bear much relation to reality.

 

[TimothyH]

Yes, he was a true man.

And fully God.

And aware of both.

-Tim-

 

[Aeden]

Aeden when you say “Jesus was non-denominational” what exactly do you mean?

I mean that there were no “denominations” of Christianity, at least not to my knowledge, at when Jesus founded the Church. The Catholic Church was what He created, but it was merely called “Christian.” It wasn’t until Protestants started breaking away that “denominations” started emerging. They broke away from Christ and the Church. Calling Him non-denominational.points out that they were the ones who formed their own faiths rather than following the one true faith.

 

[Adamski]

Although Jesus was Jewish, almost all of the traditions about Hanukkah come from the Talmud, not the book of Maccabees.

That’s not what my rabbi friend told me

 

[edwest2]

That’s in part because, as I describe it, Acts is about how we evolved from being a sect of Judaism to being our own religion

That’s inaccurate. If anything, the new covenant established by Jesus at the Last Supper where He first transformed the bread and wine into His body and blood, was the fulfillment of Scripture. He did something only God could do until he passed this on to Peter and established His Church on earth.

Christianity was never a sect of Judaism. Jesus, Himself, did not avoid the Temple, and He did celebrate Passover in a way that transformed our relationship with God since the Fall. When the Holy Spirit came, all could be baptized by water and the Holy Spirit just as John the Baptist saw.

Yes, some Jews who believed thought it was only for them, and God, not man, gradually revealed that the dietary laws about eating unclean animals no longer applied, that circumcision was no longer required, and that non-Jews were just as worthy.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I think you have to say Jesus was Christian. He clearly accepted that he was God, the son of God, and the source of all salvation. Not to mention he was baptized.

If that doesn’t make you Christian, I don’t know what does.

God Bless

It makes you a completed Jew, as Mother Miriam of the Lamb of God likes to say…

Jesus was culturally, and practically, speaking a Jew. If you have doubts, look at the sign above His head on any crucifix: “Jesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum” (Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews) This seems obvious to me. Not surprised that “non-denominational” Christians would say Jesus was “non-denominational.” They tend to see history from their own colored lenses. At best, their position is an over-simplification of the truth.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Hotgoldensun]

An evangelical I know was concerned about having thier 4 year old attened another
Neighbors house that is Jewish to attened a Hanakah party

And I said well Jesus was Jewish

They responded no Jesus was non denominational

Then I went into how Hanakah is in the book of Macabees and an historical celebration that Christians can embrace

They continued to look at me like I was from a different planet

They may have been referring to this: youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

If they did not learn it from there then they really need some help because Jesus is religion. :doh2:

 

[AbideWithMe]

An evangelical I know was concerned about having thier 4 year old attened another
Neighbors house that is Jewish to attened a Hanakah party

And I said well Jesus was Jewish

They responded no Jesus was non denominational

Then I went into how Hanakah is in the book of Macabees and an historical celebration that Christians can embrace

They continued to look at me like I was from a different planet

Adamski–

Can you ask this person exactly what they meant in saying Jesus was non denominational? We can all take turns speculating what might have been in this person’s mind, but getting some clarification from the source would be more helpful than all the speculation in the world. I’m curious, too…it seems like a strange thing to say.

 

[edwest2]

It makes you a completed Jew, as Mother Miriam of the Lamb of God likes to say…

Jesus was culturally, and practically, speaking a Jew. If you have doubts, look at the sign above His head on any crucifix: “Jesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum” (Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews) This seems obvious to me. Not surprised that “non-denominational” Christians would say Jesus was “non-denominational.” They tend to see history from their own colored lenses. At best, their position is an over-simplification of the truth.

Peace,
Robert

That’s inaccurate.

bible.cc/john/19-21.htm

Jesus was from the house and lineage David but was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, not man. The Jewish leadership was ready to stone Him to death because he referred to Himself as Yahweh and was accused of making Himself equal to God.

Peace,
Ed