Jesus

[Chris_LaRock]

If Muslims see Jesus as a prophet, why don’t they follow his teachings? (love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, turn the other cheek, ect…)

 

[exoflare]

They conveniently deny all his teachings, that’s how. Remember, the Quran doesn’t have to conform to reality… reality must instead conform to the Quran.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Chris LaRock:

If Muslims see Jesus as a prophet, why don’t they follow his teachings? (love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, turn the other cheek, ect…)

In general, we believe christianity is more about the teachings of Paul than it is the teachings of Jesus. To prove this, i will just address some of the confirmed teachings of Jesus and illustrate how Muslims actually do follow Jesus’ teachings.

As you probably know, Muslims believe in all the Prophets and Messengers, from Adam to Muhammed, sent to all nations throughout the world, but the greatest and mightiest of them are Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed. The most fundamental message every one of these Prophets and Messengers came with was to worship God alone without associating partners in worship with Him. This is the message all the Prophets before Jesus came with, and we believe Jesus did so as well. We believe God is unique and does not share his attributes with any of his creation in their perfection, “there is nothing like Him” as the Quran says. Thus, he cannot be worshiped in His creation nor can any creation of His be attributed as Him.

For example, we all believe one cannot bow down to an idol and claim that he/she is infact worshiping God who is present in the Idol. Ask a pagan why do they worship that idol (or that tree, or that rock, or that star, or the sun, or moon, or that human being), they will respond ‘we are worshiping God who is manifest in that idol. not the physical idol itself’. This is the rationale of the pagan.

So now what is the difference between that and the answer of christians when they’re asked ‘why are you worshiping a man (ie. Jesus)?’ and they respond ‘We are not worshiping Jesus the man, we are worshiping God who is manifest in Jesus the man.’ This is the same rationale of the pagans.

Jesus called to worship the Father, ‘my father and your father’, my God and your God. But today, due to the influence of Paul, Christianity has shifted worship of God to worship of Jesus by empolying basically the same rationale of paganism. The worship of One God has become distorted, and even has went further into worshiping of saints, calling upon and praying to them. Worship should not be shared in anyway with God. And God is not in any of His creation. We dont worship God by making pictures of Him or imagining Him as if Hes some sort of object.

Now, in your question, you mentioned certian acts that you believe Jesus called on his followers to do. Yes, we believe in the time of Jesus, belief in him requires that one has to follow his way. Even the bible says quoting Jesus ‘I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.’" (John 14:6) This should not be taken as evidence that Jesus is God but rather that in order to obey God, ‘the Father’, one must follow Jesus’ way in how he worshiped and obeyed God’s orders. God teaches the Prophets to teach to the people the way to worship Him. The way of the prophets is the only way to God.

Now, lets look at some examples of the way of Prophet Jesus Christ.

We know from the Bible that Jesus was circumsized. This was a part of his way, as was the way of the Prophets before him. Today however, we find for the most part christians are not getting circumsized. Why? Because Paul said “Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.” (Galatians 5:2) So although Jesus followed and upheld the laws of God revealed before him and actually got circumsized, heres Paul advocating a way different from that of Jesus. Thus, in this aspect of Jesus’ way, Muslims follow Jesus as they emphasize circumcision. Christians on the other hand follow Paul’s way.

continued…

 

[Edris]

1- Bring me Jesus’ teachings and i’ll be more than happy to follow it.

2- You believe in the Old Testament, the teachings of Moses pbuh, then why don’t you follow it?

3- “love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, turn the other cheek, ect…”

 To be honest this doesn't make sense to me.  Let me give you an example,  if an american is going to apply these teachings,  he'll have to love Osama bin laden,  pray for him,  and give him access to US soil so that he can bomb another building filled with innocent people.

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For every period of time, Allah (swt) revealed laws for that specific period. We believe that the laws of the Torah and Gospel do not apply for our present time. Like you refer to the Torah and other books as “Old” Testament, The Qur’an refers to the Torah and Gospel as “Old” scriptures.

"Verily, We did send down the Taurât (Torah) [to Mûsa (Moses)], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allâh’s Will, judged the Jews And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the Jews by the Taurât (Torah) after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allâh’s Book, and they were witnesses thereto Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed, such are the Kafirun (disbelievers). And We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal” But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation And whosoever does not judge by that which Allâh has revealed, such are the Zalimun (wrong*doers). And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the Taurât (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurât (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqûn (the pious). Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allâh has revealed therein And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fâsiqûn (disobedient to Allâh). And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad) the Book (this Qur’ân) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohayminan (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures) So judge between them by what Allâh has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way If Allâh willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so strive as in a race in good deeds The return of you (all) is to Allâh; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ." (Qur’an 5:44-48)

Peace

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

continued…

Another example is that Jesus did not eat pork as he maintained the earlier revealed laws on the prohibition of eating pork. However, today, christians have pig farms and eat pork. Why? Again because Paul and his doctrine abrogating pretty much all the previous laws revealed by God to His Prophets. Muslims however follow Jesus’ way and refrain from eating Pork.

The following words are ascribed to Jesus:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” [Matthew 5:17-20]

On biblegateway.com, these 4 verses have a heading titled “The fulfillment of the Law”. And we as Muslims believe Jesus came to fulfill the previous law as these verses say. Christianity however upholds the doctrine of Paul in abolishing the previous law.

Yet another example of Jesus’ way not being followed by christians is in how Jesus prayed to God. "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” " [matthew 26:39] This verse illustrates the manner in which Jesus prayed to God, by falling with his face to the ground. Looking today, christians dont pray in this manner at all. The only people you will find in the world praying in this manner, consistently, 5 times a day, are those who call themselves Muslims. So again, another example of how Muslims follow the way of Jesus. And this practice of prostrating to God was something the previous Prophets also upheld. Abraham (Genisis 17:3), Moses and Aaron (Numbers 20:6 & Numbers 16:22), Elijah (1 Kings 18:42), Joshua (Joshua 5:14 & Joshua 7:6). And likewise, Jesus and Muhammed, peace and blessings be upon all God’s Prophets and Messengers.

As Muslims, as followers of all the Prophets, we do also specify our following to the way of the Prophet Muhammed as we believe He is the last Prophet and Messenger. As God said in the Quran: “He who obeys the Messenger (ie. Muhammed), has indeed obeyed God” (Quran 4:80)

I hope my reply has helped answer your question.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

The teachings of Jesus are contained within the Gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Read them. There are many so-called ‘apocrypha goaspels’. They’re fake.

I see that you have a lot of disagreements with my faith. I also see that they are based upon popular misconceptions many Muslims have of the Christian faith, rather than the actual teachings of it. All I’d ask is that you read the New Testament before you reach such conclusions. I’ve ordered a copy of the Koran, and I plan to study it to see what Islam is really about. I think that would be better than just listening to misconceptions of it. All I ask is that Muslims take the time to read the New Testament before condemning Christianity.

 

[Lance]

~~~~~
Jesus called to worship the Father, ‘my father and your father’, my God and your God. But today, due to the influence of Paul, Christianity has shifted worship of God to worship of Jesus by empolying basically the same rationale of paganism. The worship of One God has become distorted, and even has went further into worshiping of saints, calling upon and praying to them. Worship should not be shared in anyway with God. And God is not in any of His creation. We dont worship God by making pictures of Him or imagining Him as if Hes some sort of object.

.

Why do you continue to distort the facts. We have proven time and again that Catholics do not worship Saints. If you continue with you distortions why should I not distort the meaning of Allah and say you worship some ancient moon god. I will go so far as to say you are getting very close to the line between distortion and lieing.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Lance:

Why do you continue to distort the facts. We have proven time and again that Catholics do not worship Saints. If you continue with you distortions why should I not distort the meaning of Allah and say you worship some ancient moon god. I will go so far as to say you are getting very close to the line between distortion and lieing.

In Islam, we believe to supplicate or call upon any person who is dead is an act of worship to other than God. So i am coming from the islamic perspective. And from what i know about catholocism is that catholics do call upon and supplicate to saints. Perhaps we have different definitions of what worship is, but again i am coming from the understanding of what worship is from the islamic perspective.

 

[Lance]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

In Islam, we believe to supplicate or call upon any person who is dead is an act of worship to other than God. So i am coming from the islamic perspective. And from what i know about catholocism is that catholics do call upon and supplicate to saints. Perhaps we have different definitions of what worship is, but again i am coming from the understanding of what worship is from the islamic perspective.

Since this is not an Islamic forum but a Catholic forum about Islam perhaps you would be well advised to either use the Catholic view of worship or preface you statements by saying in the Islamic view or perspective such and such is worship.

 

[Edris]

Lance:

Since this is not an Islamic forum but a Catholic forum about Islam perhaps you would be well advised to either **use the Catholic view of worship ** or preface you statements by saying in the Islamic view or perspective such and such is worship.

I have to say that this is the first time i realize that catholics don’t consider supplication as an act of worship. And this leads me to ask: If you supplicate to the saints, confess your sins to the priests, take your scriptures from Paul, and give thanks to prophet Jesus pbuh, then what is left for God (The Father)?

What is the Catholic view of worship?

 

[Shiann]

This gets a little complex, if we are not all understanding of our terminology. So I will offer some definitions for the conversation:

In Scripture, the term “worship” was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = “beyond dulia”), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

Further reading:
catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

I found this article from the Catholic Encyclopedia to be alot more informative in defining worship (from the catholic perspective): newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Lat. cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.

There are several degrees of this worship:

if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

In accordance with these principles it will readily be understood that a certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent. The relic of the saint is venerated because of the link which unites it with the person who is adored or venerated; while the statue or picture is regarded as having a conventional relation to a person who has a right to our homage – as being a symbol which reminds us of that person (see Vacant, Diet de théol. cath., s.v. Adoration, and authors cited in bibliography; also ADORATION; IDOLATRY; IMAGES, DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY).

refer to the link for the rest of the article.

 

[Lance]

Edris:

I have to say that this is the first time i realize that catholics don’t consider supplication as an act of worship. And this leads me to ask: If you supplicate to the saints, confess your sins to the priests, take your scriptures from Paul, and give thanks to prophet Jesus pbuh, then what is left for God (The Father)?

What is the Catholic view of worship?

As has been explained to you several times, when we pray to a Saint all we are doing is asking them to pray to God for us. When we confess our sins the priest is simply a mediator between us and God. Yes we take some scripture from Paul but also from Mathew, Mark, Luke and John

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[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Lance:

As has been explained to you several times, when we pray to a Saint all we are doing is asking them to pray to God for us. When we confess our sins the priest is simply a mediator between us and God. Yes we take some scripture from Paul but also from Mathew, Mark, Luke and John

yes this is what i understand from reading that link. Its kinda like asking for intercession. This practice is found among some sects in Islam as well, especially Sufism as they believe and have reverance for many dead individuals that they believe are saints. They also pray to saints and ask them to interceed and pray to God for them.

 

[Lance]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

yes this is what i understand from reading that link. Its kinda like asking for intercession. This practice is found among some sects in Islam as well, especially Sufism as they believe and have reverance for many dead individuals that they believe are saints. They also pray to saints and ask them to interceed and pray to God for them.

Thank you, you seem to be a reasonable person with whom I may have differing beliefs but we can at least be reasonable and try to understand where the other person is coming from.

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I know that religion is a complicated subject and can’t be learned in a forum like this but I think I have a better understanding of Islam due to you and I hope you are gaining an understanding of Catholicism and Christianity.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Lance:

Thank you, you seem to be a reasonable person with whom I may have differing beliefs but we can at least be reasonable and try to understand where the other person is coming from.

And thank you, and yes it is important we do try to be reasonable and understand where the other is coming from, even if we dont agree, otherwise dialogue would never progress or benefit anyone.

I know that religion is a complicated subject and can’t be learned in a forum like this but I think I have a better understanding of Islam due to you and I hope you are gaining an understanding of Catholicism and Christianity.

Im happy my posts are benefiting you, and yes i have learned alot about how catholics and christians in general believe and practice their faith, especially since the members here are alot more learned about their faith. I also find dialogue with catholics here alot easier, not as hostile and nonsensical as other forums. And the mods do a great job.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Another question:

Are the Ten Commandments in the Koran?

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Hi chris,

Yes all but the obligation of keeping the Sabbath sacred are mentioned in the Quran, but the Sabbath is mentioned in regards to the children of israel.

1. “I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt…”

Yes definately we believe in God’s existence, The Creator, the God of Abraham and Moses.

1. “You shall have no other gods besides Me…Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above…”

This is the main theme of the Quran, over and over again… forbiddance of associating anything in worship with other than God Almighty. It is the foundation of Islam.

1. “You shalt not swear falsely by the name of the Lord…”

Yes this is also forbidden in the Quran, God said: :“And make not Allâh’s (Name) an excuse in your oaths against your doing good and acting piously, and making peace among mankind. And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower (i.e. do not swear much and if you have sworn against doing something good then give an expiation for the oath and do good).” (Al-Baqarah 2:224)

1. “Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy”

Yes we believe the sabbath (saturday) was the day made sacred for the children of israel and the day they were obligated by God not to work. However the quran narrates a story regarding how some of them behaved with the Sabbath:

“And ask them about the town that was by the sea, when they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday): when their fish came to them openly on the Sabbath day, and did not come to them on the day they had no Sabbath. Thus We made a trial of them for they used to rebel (see V.4:154). And when a community among them said: “Why do you preach to a people whom Allâh is about to destroy or to punish with a severe torment?” (The preachers) said: “In order to be free from guilt before your Lord (Allâh), and perhaps they may fear Allâh.” So when they forgot the remindings that had been given to them, We rescued those who forbade evil, but We seized those who did wrong with a severe torment because they used to rebel (disobey Allâh). So when they exceeded the limits of what they were prohibited, We said to them: “Be you monkeys, despised and rejected.”” (Al-A’raf 7:163-166)

God tested them by allowing the fish to be plentiful on the Sabbath but be scarse the rest of the days in the week. So some of them figured out a way to catch the fish on the sabbath without having to actually work on the Sabbath. What they did was set up their fish tents in the sea on the Friday and picked it up on Sunday.

The righteous among them warned those committing the act that what they were doing was evil and heneous in the sight of God, while another party among them would advise those that were preaching that they shouldnt waste their time warning them because they are already destined for punishment. So in the end, God saved those who preached against the evil, while he punished those committing the act transgressing against the Sabbath by transforming them into monkeys, but He did not mention what happened to the group who advised the preachers against advising those transgressing. I dont have access to the explanation of the verse to find out if there are any narrations regarding what happened to that specific group.

1. “Honor your father and your mother…”

Also in the Quran: “And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour.” (Al-Isra 17:23)

1. “You shall not murder”

There is ofcourse a difference between justified killing where the State applies the death menality for murder or between armies in combat, and the murdering of a human whos life was taken without right and justification.

God said in the Quran: "And do not kill anyone which Allâh has forbidden, except for a just cause. And whoever is killed (intentionally with hostility and oppression and not by mistake), We have given his heir the authority (to demand Qisâs, Law of Equality in punishment or to forgive, or to take Diya (blood money)]. But let him not exceed limits in the matter of taking life (i.e he should not kill except the killer only). Verily, he is helped (by the Islâmic law). (Al-Isra 17:33)

continued…

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

continued…

God also says in the Quran: “Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind.” [5:32] Ibn Kathir, one of the great scholars in the explanation of the Quran said “Saving life in this case occurs by not killing a soul that Allah has forbidden. So this is the meaning of saving the life of all mankind, for whoever forbids killing a soul without justification, the lives of all people will be saved from him.”

1. “You shall not commit adultery”

Yes this is one of the great sins in Islam as the Quran says: “And come not near to the unlawful sexual intercourse. Verily, it is a Fâhishah *, and an evil way (that leads one to Hell unless Allâh forgives him).” (Al-Isra 17:32)

The death mentality is warranted if a person is convicted in a court by 4 witnesses (which is highly unlikely to happen), or if the individual confesses on their own accord to the sin (since the penalty is an assured expiation for the sin). The prophet Muhammed however would encourage repentance to God in private and whenever a man or woman came to him confessing of adultery he would ask them many questions before issuing the punishment on them, hoping they would retract or say something that wouldnt warrant the punishment.

1. “You shall not steal”

Yes another major sin in Islam. the penalty for stealing in Islam is the chopping off of ones hand.

God said in the Quran: "Cut off (from the wrist joint) the (right) hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allâh. And Allâh is AllPowerful, AllWise. But whosoever repents after his crime and does righteous good deeds (by obeying Allâh), then verily, Allâh will pardon him (accept his repentance). Verily, Allâh is Oft*Forgiving, Most Merciful. " (Al-Ma’idah 5:38-39)

And this is not excusive to just the poor. Once a woman of noble leniege and status in Madeenah was caught stealing, and some people from her tribe came to the prophet hoping he would uplift the penalty from her. The Prophet replied to them that even if his own daughter Fatima was caught stealing that he would not overrule the law of God. This kind of favourtism was actually the practice of some of the previous nations, that they would excuse those higher in wealth and status amongst the people but insist on punishing those who were weak and poor.

1. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor”

Also forbidden in Islam, as the Quran says “O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allâh, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allâh is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allâh is Ever Well*Acquainted with what you do.” (An-Nisa 4:135)

1. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house…”

Yes this is also discouraged in Islam as it leads to transgression.

“And strain not your eyes in longing for the things We have given for enjoyment to various groups of them, the splendour of the life of this world that We may test them thereby. But the provision (good reward in the Hereafter) of your Lord is better and more lasting.” (Ta-Ha 20:131)

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continued…*

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

continued…

In the Quran here are many things God has ordered and forbade, but there are 3 consecutive verses that are similar to the kind of commandments Moses came with. They are the following:

Say (O Muhammad): "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited you from:

Join not anything in worship with Him;

be good and dutiful to your parents;

kill not your children because of poverty - We provide sustenance for you and for them;

come not near to Al-Fawâhish (shameful sins, illegal sexual intercourse, etc.) whether committed openly or secretly,

and kill not anyone whom Allâh has forbidden, except for a just cause (according to Islâmic law). This He has commanded you that you may understand.

And come not near to the orphan’s property, except to improve it, until he (or she) attains the age of full strength;

and give full measure and full weight with justice. We burden not any person, but that which he can bear.

And whenever you give your word (i.e. judge between men or give evidence, etc.), say the truth even if a near relative is concerned, and fulfill the Covenant of Allâh,

This He commands you, that you may remember. And verily, this is my Straight Path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His Path. This He has ordained for you that you may become Al-Muttaqûn (the pious)."

(Al-An’am 6:151)