S
sophie1
Guest
My husband and I have an acquaintance who is a fallen-away Catholic. He recently claimed that “Jesus never said he was God”. We’re sure this is not true, but would appreciate some citations…
- Status
C
Christy_Beth
Guest
You could do a search on the internet. There are several available. Personally, I like biblegateway.
T
thistle
Guest
John 10:30 “The Father and I are one.”
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”
N
Nita
Guest
He says here that He is the Son of God
John 10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, You are blaspheming,’ because I said, I am the Son of God’?
You might let them know that actions speak even louder than words sometimes.
Jesus showed he had dominion over:
John 10:37-38 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."
One more quick one before I run out of editing time:
John 14:8-11 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, Show us the Father’? 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.
Nita
John 10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, You are blaspheming,’ because I said, I am the Son of God’?
You might let them know that actions speak even louder than words sometimes.
Jesus showed he had dominion over:
- demons
- physical universe (calmed the storm)
- laws of physics (walked on water; multiplication of loaves)
- physical death (His own and others)
- physical health (many healings)
John 10:37-38 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."
One more quick one before I run out of editing time:
John 14:8-11 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, Show us the Father’? 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.
Nita
M
mvorines
Guest
Why did he say that? Did he ever read the Bible? I think he read a different translation of the Bible. Jehova Witnesses’ Bible translation edited some things to make it appear that Jesus is not God. May he be enlightened.
D
diggerdomer
Guest
Tough question imho. For those of us who believe Jesus is God, it’s easy to read the New Testament and have it confirm our beliefs.
But, the New Testament is not written in a way that anyone reading it would necessarily be led to believe Jesus is God. Obviously.
It took the Church a number of centuries to figure out how to definitively and authentically express the faith that Jesus is God (the Council of Nicea, 325 A.D.).
So…in addition to the Scripture references others have provided, I think it would also be important to let them know that another consideration is that the Church said Jesus was God.
M
maryj
Guest
NAB Mark 14:61-62 Again the high priest asked Him and said to Him “Are you the Messiah the son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus answered, " I Am"; and “you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of Heaven”
M
MDK
Guest
You have received citations from others. Jesus gave solid indications and words, but also knew that He had to accomplish His mission. He fulfilled the messianic propehcies, for those who were paying attention. His words also indicated that He was God made man. However, if He made it completely and totally obvious to all, then He would not have been put to death and make salvation possible for all of mankind. If His presence, words and deeds would have been so overpowering as to leave no one able to decide otherwise, then there would have been no doubt in the Jews’ minds and many would not have let Him be crucified, as was foretold.
Can you imagine Jesus broadcasting it so clearly and abundantly open to all that His mission was not accomplished? Or can you imagine Jesus saying, but I’m God, you can’t do this to me! No, He knew what He had to do, and He did it in obedience to His Father, our Father. He did it for love of us. Praise be to God!
H
heiscominginthe
Guest
Many have difficulty understanding that Jesus is God,is of the Father, but is not the Father.
In Hebrews 1, the Father refers to the Son as God. Who are we to question that.
The Father begat his Son the Word, in the beginning, even before the creation of the heavens and earth.The Father begat the Son a life unto himself. (John 5:26) The Father gave his Son the fullness of his Holy Spirit, without measure. The will of the Son was only that of his Father. So it is not robbery to consider the Son God, for he is the perfect will of his Father.
So what is it that makes it okay to call Jesus God. The first and foremost is he was begotten of the father, his expressed image. The second thing is he was filled with the Holy Spirit of his Father without measure.
Yet, there will come a time when the Son will relinquish the authority of the Godhead back unto the Father. For there is only one God. 1Cor. 15:24-28
So in short, the Father has authorized his Son who is the expressed image of the Father to do his will over all of creation. All things were created by the Son and through the Son by the will of his Father though the unction of his Holy Spirit.
For no man cometh unto the Father, but through the Son.
In Hebrews 1, the Father refers to the Son as God. Who are we to question that.
The Father begat his Son the Word, in the beginning, even before the creation of the heavens and earth.The Father begat the Son a life unto himself. (John 5:26) The Father gave his Son the fullness of his Holy Spirit, without measure. The will of the Son was only that of his Father. So it is not robbery to consider the Son God, for he is the perfect will of his Father.
So what is it that makes it okay to call Jesus God. The first and foremost is he was begotten of the father, his expressed image. The second thing is he was filled with the Holy Spirit of his Father without measure.
Yet, there will come a time when the Son will relinquish the authority of the Godhead back unto the Father. For there is only one God. 1Cor. 15:24-28
So in short, the Father has authorized his Son who is the expressed image of the Father to do his will over all of creation. All things were created by the Son and through the Son by the will of his Father though the unction of his Holy Spirit.
For no man cometh unto the Father, but through the Son.
M
MDK
Guest
This is exactly why people need the Magisterium.
What are you trying to say, first of all? A lot of words, but it went nowhere.
Secondly, of course there is only one God. That God is in three Divine Persons. Your statement about one God, really doesn’t add anything to the conversation, does not address the OP, and doesn’t make sense in your own post. Jesus is God, and therefore, giving power back to the Father would not take things from “not God” to God!
… when people are their own pope (final interpreter of God’s Word), going it on their own, they get mixed up, then lost and really simply spin in circles. It’s often born of arrogance, and it’s very sad, indeed.
H
heiscominginthe
Guest
When you can disprove what I wrote then you may have an argument.
John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Acts 5: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
The bible tells us that the Father gave Jesus a life unto himself.
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself
The bible tells us the Son is the expressed image of his Father.
Heb. 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high
Jesus is the Son of God, begotten of the Father in the beginning.
Col. 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
The Father bestowed upon the Son his Holy Spirit without measure.
John 3:34 For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for God gives the Spirit without measure.
The Father gave his Son his Holy Spirit without measure and all things were created by the Son and through the Son by the will of the Father through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. So the Son being filled completely with the Holy Spirit of his Father is God, is the perfect will of God.
Yet, there will come a time when the Son will offer up the kingdom unto his Father where he will relinquish the authority of the Godhead so that God will be all in all. 1Cor. 15:24-28
S
SHW
Guest
Hi
1 Cor. 15:28 “Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”
Jesus is subject to the Father’s Will, if you are speaking of their individual roles, because Jesus always does the Will of His Father. But Jesus is the Word of God so His role is to “speak” for the Triune God using “words” to command. The Holy Spirit is the Power of the Father and the Son and He proceeds from both of Them in order to do both the Father’s Will and Jesus’ Word (command). We cannot understand this very well with our finite minds and that is why we call it a “Mystery.” The Father is the Will of God and His Son Jesus is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit is the Power of God.
Philippians 2:5-7 “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.”
Jesus is equal to His Father in His Divine Nature but They have different roles in the Triune Godhead. All three; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each equal to each other.
The Word who is God (only begotten Son of the Father) humbled Himself by taking on a human nature in order to redeem us but His Divine nature is equal to God the Father and to God the Holy Spirit. They are a Triune God, the Blessed Trinity. One God in three Divine Persons. Jesus is both God and Man for eternity.
Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Jesus commands His eleven Apostles to baptize in the names of the Triune God in order to make people His disciples. We are “born again” through baptism and we become Christians (followers of Christ) when we are baptized.
Revelation 22:1-5 "And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
So God will be “all in all” once more, after Jesus hands His kingdom over to His Father, with all Three Divine Persons equal, but with different roles for eternity.
John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Jesus participated in the creation of all things. All things were made through Him (and the Father and the Holy Spirit).
Pax,
SHW
F
FCEGM
Guest
Nita gave the good example of the Lord walking on the water as a sign of his authority over the laws of physics. To flesh this out a bit: Jesus is manifesting His Divinity in this action, because in the OT it is GOD Who “walks upon the water.” We see that it is God Who has power over the water, the place of chaos, the region where demonic powers dwell. This always harkens back to Genesis where God calls order - “Cosmos” – out of “chaos”. Water chaos is the sense that we find in many of the prophets, in many of the psalms, going back to that primitive idea that this was the realm of dis-order. Now God in Genesis gives order to the water, and divides the water, bringing forth dry land, conquers watery chaos. Job, e.g., in Ch. 38 makes it a point that God puts His heel and walks upon the water, again an ancient sign of conquest – when the winner would come and place his heel on the head of the person vanquished, who humbly prostrated himself before his conquerer. So here is Jesus asserting His Divine authority by walking on the water - He in His life, Death and Resurrection brings about a New Creation.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
He didn’t. The NT is not so crass - the books present him in a way that points to such a conclusion, but for the authors there was only one God; so Jesus is seldom or never called God; to have done so would have meant (to anticipate later language) that Jesus was God the Father.
The deity of Jesus is not central to the NT; other things are far more prominent, such as his Messiahship, Kingship, his being sent by the Father to bring in the Kingship of God, his Resurrection. The Apostles don’t preach that Jesus is God, or Divine - they do speak of his Lordship - which is not quite the same thing; & of his election by God, his Resurrection, & his future coming as Judge. There are several passages where Jesus is described in terms previously used of God in the OT; these point in the direction of an acknowledgement that Jesus is Divine. Anyone not fairly familiar with the OT would miss such passages. In the first three gospels, the identity of Jesus is represented very indirectly.
M
MDK
Guest
Really, once again, all you do is quote Scripture, which anyone can do. What I was discussing in the previous thread was not an inability to quote Scripture as that is pretty easy to do with online Bibles and copy and paste features…, as much as no real understanding what the OP meant, leading to inappropriateness in answer. If you just quote Scriptures, who will disagree. It’s important to know what they mean, and know how to apply them to our lives, including answering our own question and responding to others’ questions.
H
heiscominginthe
Guest
Above each scripture is what I believe. The scripture is the proof of why I believe that way.
In the beginning was the Word.
The bible tells us that Jesus Christ is the Word of God. In the beginning God begat his Son the Word, even before he created the heavens and the earth. And by the Son the Word of God, and through the Son the Word of God, God spoke all things into existence through the ministry of his Holy Spirit. God begat his Son who is the expressed image of the Father, a life unto himself. John 5:25
And the Word was with God. God begat his Son the Word, and God was a Father unto the Son and Jesus was a Son unto the Father.
And the Word was God. God the Father gave his Son his Holy Spirit without measure. The Son did only the will of his Father. Thus, making him God, for it is written, no man cometh unto the Father, but through the Son. In Hebrews 1, the Father himself refers to the Son as God so who do we do any less.
When all things have been brought into submission, the Son will offer up the kingdom unto his Father where he will relinquish the authority of the Godhead given him by his Father to do his will. For there is only one God. 1 Cor. 15:24-28
M
MDK
Guest
It’s nice that you quote them, and state some fairly obvious thing, however, perhaps there needs to be more reverence for God’s word and how God has set about to teach His Word faithfully. Do you know who wrote Scriptures, and who is the interpreter of Scriptures? All who wrote them were Catholic men, and the Holy Spirit is with Jesus’ church who is final interpreter. It is because of the Catholic Church that we know what the Holy Scriptures are, and no other reason. It is also the Church who is interpreter of Scriptures. Without humbling oneself, there will be arrogance toward and ignorance of proper and deeper meanings of Scriptures.
H
heiscominginthe
Guest
Sorry, but regardless of what you profess, Peter was not catholic and he would be upset with many of the interpretations and traditions practiced by the catholic church today.
The scriptures were not written by the catholic church and the CC does not have a monopoly on interpretation of doctrine.
Almost everytime I discuss the Holy Writ with most catholics, they want to revert me to this or that giving catholic interpretation of scripture. I don’t want to see somebodies interpretation, show me in the Word of God.
For instance, what is it that makes it not robbery to call Jesus God, to get back on topic of this thread? Also, what does it mean that Jesus was begotten of his Father? Prove to me that Jesus always was and will always be God the Father.
M
MDK
Guest
See, this is why the arrogant go it on their own, and miss the real meaning of God’s word. Ignorance of Scriptures is ignorance of Christ. Peter and all the Apostles were indeed Catholic. Christ established one Church, with Peter as head, which is the Catholic Church. That you don’t know this, is sadly ignorance. We are all ignorant at one time or another. It becomes a problem when one clings to that ignorance for some reason, and does not seek truth. That you tell the Church that they are wrong in official teachings is not truth. People who try to tell the author of the Bible that they are wrong, are acting arrogantly and sadly doom their own learning to being off track and going away from Christ. This is opposed to the humility that Christ asks of us.
The wayward may believe they don’t interpret the Word of God according to some tradition. Even if you take it literalistically, this is a tradition (and is an incorrect tradition).
The Catholic Church is the only Church that has the fullness of revealed truth. Other so-called churches and individual faith systems have some more or less, but never the fullness of truth. From what you have said, you do not have the fullness of truth, and will never have it as long as you deny the Catholic teachings.
Those Catholics who do tell you that the Church’s teachings are correct, are doing a great service to you and is out of love. Charity must be at the service of truth. I have told you the truth for your own benefit. I believe you have honestly told me what you believe, but sadly it is not in line with truth. Christ is the Truth. The more you misunderstand the truth, the more you misunderstand Christ. It’s arrogance that leads one away from Christ, and humility that brings one to Him.
It is true because the Catholic Church teaches the truth of Christ, as protected by the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not teach its own truths. The Catholic Church infallibly teaches that Jesus is eternally begotten of the Father. The Catholic Church infallibly teaches that Jesus is God. If you believe these, then you are on the right track, in agreement with Christ’s one and only Church, His Body, His Bride.
S
SHW
Guest
Hello,
It is not robbery to call Jesus God because He is God.
John 1:1-3 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.”
Jesus is the Word incarnate. The Word was endowed with a human body (made incarnate) 2000 years ago and He was named Jesus (John 1:14, Matthew 1:18-25). His human nature was created a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:7-10) so that it would be possible for His human body to die for us in order to redeem us from Adam’s sin (Romans 5). The Word never lost His Divine Nature when He became the Man Jesus. He now will always be both Divine and Human for eternity. He is a Divine Person but He has two natures, Divine and Human.
The Word is God. He is now called Jesus Christ and He is one of the three Persons of the Blessed Trinity.
Blessed Trinity:
Think of a 3-leaf clover. Each of the three leafs is part of one whole clover leaf. It takes all three of these equal individual leafs to make up just one whole clover leaf. This shows in “picture form” the relationships of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to each other and to the whole Godhead. All three leafs are equal. None is greater than the other. It takes all three of them to make one God but all three are each called God separately and collectively.
This is why Jesus commanded that people be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. We are baptized in the name of God and He is three Persons in one God or Godhead so He commanded that all three names of God be used in order to be baptized.
The Word of God is “begotten” of the Father because He was not made (created). He always was and He always will be, just as His Father always was and He always will be. The same is true of the Holy Spirit, He always was and He always will be. It is a relationship which our finite minds cannot fully grasp. There are three Divine Persons (Blessed Trinity) whom we call “God”. There is only one God but there are three Persons in this one God (Godhead). Jesus’ Divine Nature was not made (He was the begotten Word) but His Human Nature was made (created) about 2000 years ago.
Jesus will never be God the Father. He will always be the Father’s only begotten Son for eternity. He will always do His Father’s Will and the Holy Spirit will always carry out the Father’s Will and the Son’s Word (command) because He proceeds from both of Them. They all work together perfectly to accomplish God’s perfect purposes in a perfect manner.
Pax,
SHW
- Status