Jesus's claims to divinity?

[MDK]

I agree completely that Jesus is the cornerstone of the faith, for it is WRITTEN.

Yet, show me is scripture where it is alright to baptize an infant. Also show me where it says to baptize in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Also show me in scripture where it says when a man is baptized by water he is baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ.

He is, but what faith did He leave? Did Christ command that a Bible be written, so you could decide what you want about Him? Did He establish a Church to teach the truth about Him? Christ is the cornerstone, but built His Church upon the rock He established as Peter.

Show us in scripture where it is not okay to baptize an infant?

I’m glad you look to Scripture, but unfortunately you don’t understand what they mean. You don’t even acknowledge who wrote them, or who assembled the Scriptures into the Bible. For instance, how do you know for 100% sure that the Scriptures contained in the Bible are all inspired, and there are not others that should be in there? It is only based on the Catholic Church that we know this. There is no table of contents in any of the Scriptures.

 

[MDK]

What man can comprehend all there is to know about God in a hundred lifetimes, in a thousand lifetimes?

Our entire lives are spend in a growing process. Unfortunately, men come to a point where they stunt their spiritual growth by believing things that are not of God, are not scriptural.

Doubting God’s Word is a faith killer.

Misinterpreting His word is ignorance of Christ. Please learn the correct meanings of the Catholic written Scriptures, which were written in the context of Catholicism, for Catholics, and the Scriptures assembled into the Bible by the Catholic Church.

 

[SHW]

I agree completely that Jesus is the cornerstone of the faith, for it is WRITTEN.

Yet, show me is scripture where it is alright to baptize an infant. Also show me where it says to baptize in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Also show me in scripture where it says when a man is baptized by water he is baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ.

Baptizing infants:

Acts 16:33 “And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.”

1 Corinthians 1:16 “Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas.”

Families and households contained slaves, servants, children, and infants.

It doesn’t state “everything” about baptism in just one Scripture but if you put several together you can figure it out.

Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

Ephesians 5:26 “that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,”

Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’”

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

Titus 3:5 “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,”

John 3:5 “Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (born again)

All of the preceding Scriptures were referring to Baptism.

Romans 6:3 “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?”

Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

Matthew 16:18-19 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Jesus built a Church upon Peter and His successors. His Church knows the traditions taught by Jesus and His apostles. This is why it is important to listen to His Church and not lean unto our own understanding.

1 Corinthians 11:2 “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’”

Pax,
SHW

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yet, show me is scripture where it is alright to baptize an infant.

Show me in scripture where baptism of infants is strictly forbidden (“Thou shalt not…”)

Also show me where it says to baptize in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Also show me in scripture where it says when a man is baptized by water he is baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ.

Fine…here is my take:

The Sacrament of Baptism

Many people believe that baptism is merely a symbolic act that one performs before the community of believers as an outward sign of an inward decision to accept Christ as one’s “personal Lord and Savior”. Is this view biblical or does God view baptism differently? Let’s see what the Bible has to say.

Baptism Commanded by Jesus

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”

Some argue that in this verse, “born of water” refers to the placenta fluid of physical birth. However, there is no scriptural basis for this interpretation. Instead, as the references from Ezekiel and the New Testament passages make clear, the “water” connected with the Holy Spirit is the water of the sacrament of baptism – not that of physical birth. Jesus’ words, understood properly, tell us that unless one is “born of baptism and the Spirit” he cannot enter the kingdom of God. This point is underscored by the fact that Jesus and the disciples went out to baptize immediately following this verse.

Titus 3:5
He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

Rebirth? As in “born again”? Renewal by the Holy Spirit? Isn’t that regeneration?

Matthew 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

In this passage containing the very last instructions Jesus gave His disciples, we see how important baptism was to Him. He did not say, “Go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to accept me as their personal Lord and Savior and baptizing them as an outward symbol of this inward acceptance…”

Baptism Saves

Mark 16:16
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 6:3-4
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Baptism Washes Away Sin

Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

At Pentecost, Peter told the crowd to “be baptized…for the forgiveness of…sins.” After that, “you will receive…the Holy Spirit”. Once again, we see the elements of Water and Spirit…just as Ezekiel prophesied. Note too, that this promise is for “you and your children” – a clear endorsement of infant baptism.

Acts 22:16
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name. (Acts 22:16)

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Baptism Makes Us Part of the Body of Christ

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Galatians 3:26-27
26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Colossians 2:11-12
11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Baptism is Related to Impartation of the Holy Spirit

Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

In this Old Testament passage, the prophet clearly speaks of the sacrament of baptism that was to come. Notice the elements: water is sprinkled, the person is actually made clean (not merely imputed to be or called clean), and they receive a new spirit along with the gift of the Holy Spirit. Ezekiel makes a connection between washing in Water and the receipt of the Spirit of God.

However, sometimes when the Old Testament is referenced, people will say, “Well, we follow the New Testament.” in an attempt to dismiss an Old Testament passage. They need to remember the following words from the New Testament:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Consequently, we can see that all of the Bible must be taken into account when we seek to understand doctrine.

From these passages, we can see that baptism is commanded by Jesus, that baptism saves us, that baptism washes away sin, that baptism makes us part of the body of Christ, and that water baptism is connected very closely with the receipt of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, baptism can hardly be viewed as a merely symbolic act.

 

[MDK]

The CC has been changing their stands, doctrine for hundreds of years.

Wrong again… you’re pretty good at that. Doctrine can develop over time, but there has never been and will never be a denial of any established doctrine. In other words, no established doctrine has ever been denied.

What has changed little over time as well is the ignorance of the Catholic Church.

There must be two parts to any valid criticism of the Church.

1. The Church must actually and truly teach it.
2. The criticism of the teaching identified itself must be valid.

Most anti-Catholics only get the second one. The first one is normally fabricated or embellished, making it false. There has never been a valid criticism of any Catholic official teaching, and never will be. Sadly, you’re one in a long line of false accuser’s of God’s one true faith. Check out the eighth commandment, and perhaps be a little more careful… for your own sake. The gates of hell will never prevail against the Catholic Church, no matter which side of those gates you are supporting.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Only a confused mind and distorted view of reality would consider the pope as Christ. Christ is the King. The Pope is His Prime Minister of His earthly Kingdom, left as visible head of Christ’s Church while Christ the King is away and in Heaven on His throne.

Jesus is not away on some journey. He lives within the confines of the heart of the saints.

As for the head of the church, Christ is the head of the Church. That is written.

There are many parts in the body of Christ. The pope is the leader of the catholic religion only.

For there are many churches and most do not subscribe to the pope as their spiritual leader.

It is good to read that you do not look upon the pope as Christ on earth. Yet, if you were to meet the pope, would you kneel at his feet? Would you kiss his ring or the hem of his garment as so many before?

Or would you look at the pope as a man like yourself who is more mature in your faith?

 

[heiscominginthe]

1. The Church must actually and truly teach it.

Doesn’t the CC teach to baptize in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

There is nothing is scripture to support that.

Just as there is nothing in scripture to support baptizing babies.

 

[heiscominginthe]

There is one cornerstone for Christianity and that is the resurrection of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ!

AMEN!

 

[heiscominginthe]

Are you attempting to confirm or deny the statement to which you responded? In other words, do you think you can comprehend everything about God?

I comprehend only what the Lord reveals to me.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Who established the Church… God or man?
If God established His Church, was it for no reason, or is there a reason?
Should you listen to the Church built by God?

Does a man have to subscribe to the CC to be part of the church of God?

Can a man be born again/saved without being part of the CC?

 

[heiscominginthe]

For instance, how do you know for 100% sure that the Scriptures contained in the Bible are all inspired, and there are not others that should be in there

For Christ lives in me and the Word is written on the fleshly tablets of mine heart. What is revealed to me through the unction of the Holy Spirit never contradicts the Word of God. When a truth is revealed to me through the unction of the Holy Spirit through the Holy Writ, I can believe it or not believe it. To believe it is to have it written in my heart. To not accept it or believe it is to not be ready to receive it for lack of understanding. Yet, as I grow in faith and understanding, as I become more mature in the faith, that I didn’t understand then will be revealed to me later.

When a man is born again, the image he sees in the mirror is muddled, unclear. Yet, as Christ grows in the man, the image beings to more and more resemble Christ.

Only when my cup of self will is empty will I truly be filled in Christ.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Baptizing infants:

Acts 16:33 “And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.”

1 Corinthians 1:16 “Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas.”

Families and households contained slaves, servants, children, and infants.

It doesn’t state “everything” about baptism in just one Scripture but if you put several together you can figure it out.

Very lame. Children are innocent in the eyes of God. If they are ignorant of sin, are they not innocent? And if innocent, why would they need to be saved?

Romans 6:3 “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?”

Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

Matthew 16:18-19 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Romans 6 is the baptism we must all have to be of the family of God. We are not baptized by water, we are baptized by blood into Christ. This is not to be mistaken to be baptized in the name of Christ which is water baptism.

Matt. 28 It is this baptism that Jesus commanded the apostles to do for deciples. This baptism is the same baptism the apostles received on the day of Pentecost and they baptized believers with the laying on of hands in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is known as the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

As for Matt. 16, Peter is indeed the rock the church was built upon. Yet, there are many churches, not one. Does the CC not believe they are the only true church?

 

[heiscominginthe]

The Sacrament of Baptism

Many people believe that baptism is merely a symbolic act that one performs before the community of believers as an outward sign of an inward decision to accept Christ as one’s “personal Lord and Savior”. Is this view biblical or does God view baptism differently? Let’s see what the Bible has to say.

You did well in the above. Water baptism is indeed symbolic of the baptism that saves a man. For when a man is born again, only God and the man knows what occured in the heart of the man. So when the man receives water baptism, he is confessing to the world that he was saved through the grace of God. He is telling the world that he died to his self and is alive in Christ. The water being symbolic of the grave and the man rising from the water symbolic of the resurrction.

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”

Some argue that in this verse, “born of water” refers to the placenta fluid of physical birth. However, there is no scriptural basis for this interpretation. Instead, as the references from Ezekiel and the New Testament passages make clear, the “water” connected with the Holy Spirit is the water of the sacrament of baptism – not that of physical birth. Jesus’ words, understood properly, tell us that unless one is “born of baptism and the Spirit” he cannot enter the kingdom of God. This point is underscored by the fact that Jesus and the disciples went out to baptize immediately following this verse.

Not once does it say anything about water baptism in John. Jesus said a man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. Nicodemus thought Jesus was referring to two physical births which is impossible. Jesus was not referring to two physical births, but two spiritual births. For when a man sins, his spirit in him dies. And if not born anew and he dies in sin, because his spirit is dead in him, he will be taken to where the unrighteous dead are reserved until the day of judgement.

Now, you are correct is stating these verses in John represent baptism, but it is not of water. It is speaking of the baptism that saves a man through the blood of Christ. IT is talkig about salvation. Water baptism saved no one.

Titus 3:5
He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

Rebirth? As in “born again”? Renewal by the Holy Spirit? Isn’t that regeneration?

This is talking of rebirth or salvation. The rebirth of the spirit of a man by faith, being baptized into Christ. It is this baptism all men must have to be of the family of God. Eph. 4:5

 

[SHW]

Doesn’t the CC teach to baptize in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

There is nothing is scripture to support that.

Just as there is nothing in scripture to support baptizing babies.

Yes, the CC teaches as does Jesus, to baptize persons in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (the names of God) in order to make them His disciples.

Matthew 28:19-20 " Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen."

Baptize: to immerse (an individual) in water, or pour or sprinkle water over (the individual), as a symbol of admission into Christianity or a specific Christian church

Since whole households were baptized, this includes children and babies.

Early Christian writings including the Bible support the baptism of infants:

catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

You did well in the above. Water baptism is indeed symbolic of the baptism that saves a man. For when a man is born again, only God and the man knows what occured in the heart of the man. So when the man receives water baptism, he is confessing to the world that he was saved through the grace of God. He is telling the world that he died to his self and is alive in Christ. The water being symbolic of the grave and the man rising from the water symbolic of the resurrction.

Not once does it say anything about water baptism in John. Jesus said a man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. Nicodemus thought Jesus was referring to two physical births which is impossible. Jesus was not referring to two physical births, but two spiritual births. For when a man sins, his spirit in him dies. And if not born anew and he dies in sin, because his spirit is dead in him, he will be taken to where the unrighteous dead are reserved until the day of judgement.

Now, you are correct is stating these verses in John represent baptism, but it is not of water. It is speaking of the baptism that saves a man through the blood of Christ. IT is talkig about salvation. Water baptism saved no one.

This is talking of rebirth or salvation. The rebirth of the spirit of a man by faith, being baptized into Christ. It is this baptism all men must have to be of the family of God. Eph. 4:5

Water is the substance used in order to baptize. Water is not merely symbolic. It is the means which Jesus uses to remove both Original Sin and our personal sins from our souls at the time of our baptisms.

Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’”

We are born again through baptism. Baptism gives us our spiritual rebirth.

John 3:5 “Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Baptism is spiritual regeneration (spiritual rebirth).

Titus 3:5 “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the** washing of regeneration** and renewing of the Holy Spirit,”

Those who were baptized with John’s baptism of repentance still were commanded to be baptized with Jesus’ water baptism. The following Scripture passage describes both the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation:

Acts 19:1-6 “And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.”

Baptism is not merely symbolic. Jesus uses the waters of Baptism to actually wash away our sins and sanctify us, making us temples of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But** you were washed, but you were sanctified**, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[MDK]

I comprehend only what the Lord reveals to me.

From what you’ve written, you listen to others than the Lord, because you’re at odds with reality in areas. Who else is telling you these things. Some become enamored with their own abilities, that they decide who God is in their lives rather than listening to Him.

 

[MDK]

For Christ lives in me and the Word is written on the fleshly tablets of mine heart. What is revealed to me through the unction of the Holy Spirit never contradicts the Word of God. When a truth is revealed to me through the unction of the Holy Spirit through the Holy Writ, I can believe it or not believe it. To believe it is to have it written in my heart. To not accept it or believe it is to not be ready to receive it for lack of understanding. Yet, as I grow in faith and understanding, as I become more mature in the faith, that I didn’t understand then will be revealed to me later.

When a man is born again, the image he sees in the mirror is muddled, unclear. Yet, as Christ grows in the man, the image beings to more and more resemble Christ.

Only when my cup of self will is empty will I truly be filled in Christ.

If that’s the case, why do you even need Scriptures? So, you didn’t provide a legitimate answer.

Your cup of self will is overrunning! From what you’ve written, the Holy Spirit has not revealed many things to you, because you’re at odds with the Truth, who is Jesus the Christ. God is ultimate reality. You’re out of touch with Who God is as He as revealed Himself and His Doctrines to us. If you’re out of touch with reality, what good does that do. All you’re doing is coming up with your own meanings and interpretations, and saying these are proper teachings of God. In this way, you’re firmly in control of your beliefs, but they’re not from God. This has been the means heretics have used for years and years. It’s built on fear, and not on love. Your claiming to be like Christ is distorted and errant in that you are treating yourself like God, able to make your own doctrines and decide (not simply understand) what is right and wrong. This is the original sin of pride.

Honestly, for your own sake, please come out of this fantasy and humble yourself before God to really and truly learn God and His Doctrines and Sacraments.

 

[bengland]

It’s disheartening to see that this thread was hijacked to be about the issue of the Papacy and everything else when it was originally about Jesus’ divinity. Islamic apologists are going to great lengths to attack Jesus’ divinity and we’re bickering among ourselves so much that we can’t even stick to one issue.

Back on topic, if anyone is even paying attention anymore…

Today’s Gospel reading Matthew 28:8-15, even when followed to the end of St Matthew’s Gospel account in Chapter 28 really sums this up nicely, but there is a great deal more. Another place where people pay homage to Jesus is the story of the ten lepers, where one returns to worship and he asks,

Luk 17:17 Then said Jesus, “Were not ten cleansed? Where are the nine?
Luk 17:18 Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?”

The man who was healed was worshiping Jesus and Jesus equated this with worship of God. The explicit statements that he’s looking for from a modern context are not really there. This needs to be built from Scripture showing a consistency not only in the passages that support, but also in those that seem to contradict.

 

[MDK]

Doesn’t the CC teach to baptize in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

There is nothing is scripture to support that.

Just as there is nothing in scripture to support baptizing babies.

Sometimes Protestants get #1 correct, and #2 wrong, as you have. Still, the result is the same in that you’re wrong… you need both #1 and #2 to be correct. Like I’ve continued to say, when you go it on your own, ignoring those Christ sent, you end up like you are now… wrong again.

The cannon of NT Scripture that you claim to follow (but actually follow your own gospel, which is not really good news), is solely put together by the Catholic Church. That you believe in Scripture, means you believe in the Book assembled by the Catholic Church. These are the hands and feet that did this, in the name of God, and with the protection of the Holy Spirit.

If you attend church on Sundays, this is due to the Catholic Church using the day of resurrection as the Holy Day of rest instead of the Jewish Sabbath.

If you use the word “Trinity” to describe God, then you are using a word that is not in the Bible.

So, the learned person knows the pillar and bulwark of truth is the Church of the living God… the Catholic Church, with the successor of Peter as head. The Bible is not the Pillar and bulwark of the truth… and certainly, your errant interpretations of the Bible are not upholders and defense of truth. So where do your errant interpretations put you, teaching God’s word or someone else’s?

Who said all things have to be in the Bible? There is proper interpretation and administration of God’s will, as taught to those He sent. However, what you actually promote is anti-Scriptural which is to say is opposed to Scriptures. I’ll pray for you, that you learn truth, and become closer to a walk with God, as I pray for myself.