Jesus's claims to divinity?

[MDK]

You claim you understand scripture, that you have been taught by the church, but you are not correct. You have been taught by the CC, not the Church of Christ. If this was not so, then you would understand John 3 when our Lord tells us a man must be born again.

Jesus then tells Nicodemus that a man must be born of water and of spirit to enter the kingdom of God. He tells Nicodemus this because Nicodemus sees on the physical aspect of the conversation and not the spiritual aspect. Jesus wanted him to see there was more to a man then that which was flesh. Israel had become so hardened in heart, all that they knew was of the flesh.

Jesus told him a man must be born of water and of spirit to enter the kingdom of God. He was telling him a man is born in this world of the flesh, but he also must be born of spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

That is why Jesus said, that which is born of the flesh, is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

I am saddened that you cannot understand this simple truth, which is the very basis of the faith. For this is the cornerstone of the faith, the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We know what this Scripture teaches, because our Church authored the Bible. We do understand that a man must be born again… by water and the Spirit, which means Baptism.

If you knew me, you would rejoice for me, and for all faithful Catholics. Perhaps you can be sad for me and for all of us on this board who continually answer the unlearned and wayward who are blind for one reason or another… we answer people like yourself.

The RCC is the Church of Christ, the Church Christ built, the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church… how you want to say it means the same thing. I am a member of the Church which Jesus built, and which authored and protects the Bible teachings.

I hope one day that you wake up from this fog you’re in and see clearly. Your “spirit guide” that you have been taking direction from is misleading you away from Christ.

 

[MDK]

You have not clue about the blood of the lamb and it’s power to wash away sin. And this authority comes by way of the Son of God, not the CC.

Fortunately, God’s authoritative Church does teach that those invincibly ignorant have the possibility of salvation. I don’t know whether you’re consciously refusing or not, but yours is a possible case for invincible ignorance due to being severely misled prior to coming here. Although, we are telling you the truth, which may make you accountable to it, but you seem so off course and stuck to your erroneous “spirit guide” that you may never come to the fullness of revealed truth. Sadly, you have been a very confused individual. I pray that you come out of this to see clearly.

 

[ghrt]

trade9shoes.com

 

[SHW]

You have not clue about the blood of the lamb and it’s power to wash away sin. And this authority comes by way of the Son of God, not the CC.

Really?

Perhaps you would be enlightened if you studied some more.

It is fruitless for us to keep telling you the truth. You do not want to comprehend it.

Jesus gave His authority to His Church. (Luke 10:16) Jesus started only one Church. It still survives today as the oldest society in the world, and it’s called the Catholic Church. This is historical fact even though revisionist historians try to state otherwise.

You are wasting our time and yours.

We know about the Blood of Christ. We literally eat His Flesh and drink His Blood at every Catholic Mass that we attend! Why don’t you believe John 6:55 literally?

“For My flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[heiscominginthe]

We know what this Scripture teaches, because our Church authored the Bible. We do understand that a man must be born again… by water and the Spirit, which means Baptism.

If you knew me, you would rejoice for me, and for all faithful Catholics. Perhaps you can be sad for me and for all of us on this board who continually answer the unlearned and wayward who are blind for one reason or another… we answer people like yourself.

The RCC is the Church of Christ, the Church Christ built, the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church… how you want to say it means the same thing. I am a member of the Church which Jesus built, and which authored and protects the Bible teachings.

I hope one day that you wake up from this fog you’re in and see clearly. Your “spirit guide” that you have been taking direction from is misleading you away from Christ.

As I have said before, I will accept the teaching of the apostles over the revised teachings of the CC. I will believe the Word of God over the interpretation of the Word of God by the CC.

If the milk of the Word is sour, will not the meat be as well?

As for knowning you, I know that I LOVE you and this is suffient for me. And I do rejoice at our discussions, not arguments on the Word of God.

All I ask is if you look at John 3. Jesus said a man must be born again. He was not refering to the flesh, but the spirit. He was refering to a second birth in the spirit. The first being slain by sin. For how can the spirit be born again, if not already born once already?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Fortunately, God’s authoritative Church does teach that those invincibly ignorant have the possibility of salvation. I don’t know whether you’re consciously refusing or not, but yours is a possible case for invincible ignorance due to being severely misled prior to coming here. Although, we are telling you the truth, which may make you accountable to it, but you seem so off course and stuck to your erroneous “spirit guide” that you may never come to the fullness of revealed truth. Sadly, you have been a very confused individual. I pray that you come out of this to see clearly.

I don’t know if referring to the Holy Spirit as an erroneous spirit guide can be deemed as blasphemy, but I think is is close. I suggest you choose your words more wisely.

For there is only one unforgiveable sin and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

 

[MDK]

As I have said before, I will accept the teaching of the apostles over the revised teachings of the CC. I will believe the Word of God over the interpretation of the Word of God by the CC.

If the milk of the Word is sour, will not the meat be as well?

As for knowning you, I know that I LOVE you and this is suffient for me. And I do rejoice at our discussions, not arguments on the Word of God.

All I ask is if you look at John 3. Jesus said a man must be born again. He was not refering to the flesh, but the spirit. He was refering to a second birth in the spirit. The first being slain by sin. For how can the spirit be born again, if not already born once already?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

Well, then you can certainly lie to yourself, but we don’t buy it because we know better. If you want to continue to go against the teachings of the Apostles, keep doing what you’re doing. However, I recommend some humility and acceptance of the truth.

The teachings of the Apostles have been preserved in the Catholic Church. As far as John the teaching of being born of water and the Spirit as Christ taught, I’ve already gone over that, and done so correctly and in truth of the matter. Another reality is that what I told you is the same as that which the Apostles taught. Being born of water and the Spirit is Baptism. To say any different is to go against that which the Apostles taught…

 

[MDK]

I don’t know if referring to the Holy Spirit as an erroneous spirit guide can be deemed as blasphemy, but I think is is close. I suggest you choose your words more wisely.

For there is only one unforgiveable sin and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Well, I feel good about my relationship with God, who knows what I wrote and what it meant. In more plain words so you have no reason to deny what I said, the Holy Spirit does not teach what you write. Your “spirit guide” is definitely not the Holy Spirit.

You, on the other hand, twist the words and present opposite of what I meant. This can be breaking God’s commandment against bearing false witness. Even worse, you’re telling us that a false spirit is God’s Holy Spirit. Perhaps it’s not us who are in trouble with this, but a look in the mirror will show the errant party.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Well, then you can certainly lie to yourself, but we don’t buy it because we know better. If you want to continue to go against the teachings of the Apostles, keep doing what you’re doing. However, I recommend some humility and acceptance of the truth.

The teachings of the Apostles have been preserved in the Catholic Church. As far as John the teaching of being born of water and the Spirit as Christ taught, I’ve already gone over that, and done so correctly and in truth of the matter. Another reality is that what I told you is the same as that which the Apostles taught. Being born of water and the Spirit is Baptism. To say any different is to go against that which the Apostles taught…

And where is your proof? The best I get in defense is because. Because does not cut the mustard. Show it in the Word of God. You look at John 3 and change it from what it says to what you want it to say.

 

[MDK]

And where is your proof? The best I get in defense is because. Because does not cut the mustard. Show it in the Word of God. You look at John 3 and change it from what it says to what you want it to say.

We Catholics know the emptiness and false premise of the Protestant argument “show me in the Scriptures!” The reason is that Catholics and Protestants can read the exact same Scripture passages, but the difference is really in authority, which results in different interpretations. The same applies to early Church fathers, where Protestants interpret differently, because it fits what they want to believe, not what Christ taught and handed down. We Catholics can show you 70 x 7 times the Scriptures that were written by fellow Catholics, and the Protestants will deny every time the inerrant meaning preserved with the power of God for almost 2,000 years in His Church… until Protestants release themselves from the grip of false man made tradition and typically earthly pride that disables them from being free and seeing truth.

In reality, your expression is typical of exactly why one who clings to Protestantism will never really know the the fullness of revealed truth. What I have told you is the truth, formed from the true teachings of God’s authoritative teaching Church which relies on the Magisterium, Godly Tradition, and the Holy Scriptures authored by the Catholic Church. This is how I, or anyone else can know without error. That you object, simply shows your relation to the truth. If you knew the truth, you would not object to what I said. If you sought the truth, you would examine what I said, instead of asking someone to spoon feed you “proofs”. For instance, the way I have approached challenges to the Catholic faith is to examine each to determine what the real truth is, and that’s exactly what I have spent hours upon hours doing in relation to Protestant and other nonCatholic claims until each was determined to be true or false… all conflicts with the Church were found false.

A very telling attitude is that if you were to share the truth of Christ with me, you would be my (and any true Catholic’s) great friend, and I would thank you profusely, as I can imagine no greater human friend. On the contrary, when we share the truth of Christ with Protestants, they typically treat us like enemies, even though we are true and charitable and this would great of benefit to walk with Christ. The humble person who genuinely seeks Christ above all (including personal pride and earthly desires) would ask what that says about your relation to the truth, and the Truth?

God’s authoritative teaching Church relies on the Magisterium, Godly Tradition, and the Holy Scriptures authored by the Catholic Church. In other words, Scripture (the written word) was only meant to be part of God’s Church, not all of it. Those engaging in the man made tradition of Protestantism will take only our Bible and then proceed to interpret all kinds of things as they desire out of context of the original meaning… then tell us we’re wrong. In reality, Protestants only use part of the teachings, use them out of context, apply wrong meanings, and are therefore wrong in practice and in teaching faith. Clearly, Protestantism is not really about true meaning of Scriptures, but about self rule, and everyone deciding for themselves what is and is not moral, what is and is not truth, when this is only God’s province. We Catholics are humbly listening to God, delivering His mail. Protestants edit His mail, and tell God what He said. It’s obvious where the problem lies, and it’s not with Catholicism. The practice of Protestantism leads one directly into error, with no way of knowing whether it really is error.

 

[heiscominginthe]

We have showed you over and over exactly what Baptism is and what it does, using Scripture as proof. You refuse to believe.

 

[MDK]

You showed me your interpretation only. You cannot see the difference between the baptisms. Where ever it says baptism, you instantly assume it is water and that is not true. You cannot prove that every place in the NT that speaks of baptism is of water. To say any different is to be against the Word of God…

No, this was God’s teaching as there is no difference with the Apostles and has been taught for almost 2,000 years. If we told you different, then it would be against the word of God… like your interpretations currently are. You have a new teaching, that does not come from God.

This is exactly why it’s useless to “show you in the Scriptures” because all you do is deny, in the end telling God that His teaching doesn’t agree with yours. Until you understand the authority that God established to teach on Earth, no Scripture passage will mean anything to you other than what you want it to mean. Until you understand the real meanings of the Scripture passages and meaning of Scriptures as a whole, you will not really understand the revealed truth of Christ.

 

[SHW]

You showed me your interpretation only. You cannot see the difference between the baptisms. Where ever it says baptism, you instantly assume it is water and that is not true. You cannot prove that every place in the NT that speaks of baptism is of water. To say any different is to be against the Word of God.

If you cannot see the difference in that there is other baptisms spoken of in the NT. Answer me this, are there other baptisms spoken of in the NT, or do all pertain to water baptism?

No, I do not instantly assume.

There are two types of Baptism that I can find in Scripture.

There is John the Baptist’s water Baptism of repentance (Mark 1:4) which is a precursor for Jesus’ water Baptism for remittance of sin.

There is also the laying on of hands in order** to receive the Holy Spirit** which Catholics call Confirmation.

Acts 18:18-19 "And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 19:3-6 “And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.”

Notice that even though they received John’s baptism of repentance, they still were required to receive the baptism of Jesus?

Then Paul laid his hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit which we call the Sacrament of Confirmation.

This speaks of that same baptism that saves us, which is spoke of in Romans 6. This is the baptism into Christ through his blood. Again, no place does it refer to water.

The Catholic Church has been baptizing with water for 2000 years for the remission of sins in obedience to Jesus’ command. And you are trying to tell us that we have it wrong?

You quote this scripture, but yet do not understand it. It is telling us that water is the figure or symbol of the baptism that saves us. It is not the not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.

So what baptism do you suppose is for the putting away the filth of the flesh?

No, you are incorrect. It is telling us that the ark which saved Noah from destruction is a symbol/precursor for our being saved through water baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for the remittance of our sins.

The “answer of a good conscience before God” means that Jesus “reconciled us to His Father” through water Baptism by which He applies the merits of His Blood sacrifice to our souls.

The waters of Baptism do not cleanse my skin/flesh from dirt, but instead cleanses my soul from sin. After my soul was cleansed from sin through the waters of baptism, then I have a good conscience before God because I am no longer His enemy (Romans 5). Bath water cleanses our flesh/skin from dirt, but it does not cleanse our souls from sin.

There is no baptism that puts away the filth of the flesh.

I still don’t see where it says arise and be baptized in water. Every place in scripture that tells of water baptism speaks of being baptize in the name of Jesus. This scripture above is speaking of salvation, being baptized into Christ(Romans 6), not in the name of Christ.

Notice above how these who were saved had not yet received teh infilling of the Holy Spirit. They had only believed and were baptized in the name of Jesus.

Everyone knew that Baptism meant “water.” John’s baptism with water for repentance of sins prepared them for Jesus’ baptism with water for the remission of sins.

Baptism with water in the name of Jesus/Father/Son/Holy Spirit all refer to the same thing – baptism for the remission of sins. (Matthew 28:19)

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

Born again, regeneration, water and the word, baptism in the name of Jesus, etc. all refer to the same thing – Jesus’ Water Baptism for the remission of sins.

Acts 8:16 for as yet he had fallen on none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of Christ Jesus.

They were baptized with water in the name of Jesus but had not received the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands. This is what Catholics call Confirmation since they are confirmed in their faith by this Sacrament. It is not a water baptism.

1 Peter 3:21 states that baptism now saves us.

I have to unsubscribe from this thread now due to time constraints but I am sure others will answer any future questions for you.

Pax,
SHW

 

[heiscominginthe]

No, this was God’s teaching as there is no difference with the Apostles and has been taught for almost 2,000 years. If we told you different, then it would be against the word of God… like your interpretations currently are. You have a new teaching, that does not come from God.

This is exactly why it’s useless to “show you in the Scriptures” because all you do is deny, in the end telling God that His teaching doesn’t agree with yours. Until you understand the authority that God established to teach on Earth, no Scripture passage will mean anything to you other than what you want it to mean. Until you understand the real meanings of the Scripture passages and meaning of Scriptures as a whole, you will not really understand the revealed truth of Christ.

Sorry, but it is not myself that is in denial. I cannot open your eyes to the truth of God’s Word. this comes only by faith in God. You have been indoctrinated to where you only see what the CC says and that is dangerous. For your mind no longer belongs to you, but to the CC.

You talk about understanding Jesus, but yet you have no clue how he came into my life, changing it forever. My conversion was extremely powerful and for the second time in my life, I was alive. His love filled every part of me. As I stated before, God has always been with me, even as a child.

How about telling us your experience and then we can compare to see who’s resembles the Word of God. My conversion was just as it is written.

 

[MDK]

Sorry, but it is not myself that is in denial. I cannot open your eyes to the truth of God’s Word. this comes only by faith in God. You have been indoctrinated to where you only see what the CC says and that is dangerous. For your mind no longer belongs to you, but to the CC.

You talk about understanding Jesus, but yet you have no clue how he came into my life, changing it forever. My conversion was extremely powerful and for the second time in my life, I was alive. His love filled every part of me. As I stated before, God has always been with me, even as a child.

How about telling us your experience and then we can compare to see who’s resembles the Word of God. My conversion was just as it is written.

Well, any truthful objective look would tell you otherwise.

I didn’t have a cathartic conversion experience later in life, because I was in God’s Church shortly after birth when receiving remission of original sin and the Gift of the Holy Spirit in Baptism. So, while I learned, I was already in the Church, free of original sin and had the Holy Spirit from my earliest times here on Earth. I can’t tell you how I thank God for this Gift.

I was not indoctrinated, as my Catechism classes were horrible as many of them unfortunately are. I got up and studied for myself what the Church is and what other “churches” are. In addition to attending mass, I attended other ecclesial communites in an effort to check them out. I read and studied and talked to people of other faith systems. None of the RCC claims turned out to be false. However, the anti-Catholic claims all turned out to be false… and you continue in that man made tradition.

By what you’ve shared, you do not have knowledge of the true teachings contained in Scriptures, which are only part of God’s Church. So, even the part you are trying to use, is not done correctly. You say you love Christ, and you may indeed, but you don’t have any idea what He established, nor His true teachings.

So, do both of us have equal authority to “teach”? Jesus gave neither me nor you authority to go in opposition to His Church. So, where does your authority come from? Scripture does not grant anyone authority to interpret Scriptures. Jesus’ giving of authority of the keys to Peter and of binding and loosening to all the Apostles is recorded in our Scriptures, but there is no promise to you or me of this. Instead, Christ tells us to listen to those He sent. Are you claiming to be one that He sent? If so, where is your connection to the Apostles and their teachings?

My gift of the Holy Spirit happened in Baptism and Confirmation. Do we both claim to have the Holy Spirit? If so, why are our understandings of Scriptures so different as to be in opposition?

My faith is based on teaching that the Apostles made, that have been handed to their successors, the same faith and the same Church as the people who wrote the individual Scriptures. My faith is based on 2,000 years of continual teaching all the way back to Christ’s time on Earth.

Your faith system opposes the Apostles teaching, opposes those Christ sent, is not in line with the Church fathers, and goes against the only Church that has her history all the way back to year 33, and who authored the Scriptures.

It’s clear to see what’s going on here… to everyone who has eyes open, and to everyone who does not have a serious case of projection. I can promise you that you are not being guided by the Holy Spirit into things that contradict God’s Catholic Church.

 

[heiscominginthe]

There is John the Baptist’s water Baptism of repentance (Mark 1:4) which is a precursor for Jesus’ water Baptism for remittance of sin.

This is completely contrary to the Word of God. Water baptism saves not one person. Only faith in God’s Son can save a man. If a man is not born again before he received the water baptism, he is a sinner before the baptism and a sinner after, unless he has a change of heart at the point of water baptism, which has happened.

There is also the laying on of hands in order** to receive the Holy Spirit** which Catholics call Confirmation.

On this we agree in that with the laying on of hands and being baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit a man received the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 18:18-19 "And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit

Acts 18 does not say the above. If you notice the words prior to this, it says that Simon believed first, and then was baptized by water. He had not yet received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:3-6 "And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism

.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied."

Notice that even though they received John’s baptism of repentance, they still were required to receive the baptism of Jesus?

Then Paul laid his hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit which we call the Sacrament of Confirmation.

If these had not already have been saved/born again, being baptized with water would have done nothing. NOTICE how they were baptized in the name of Jesus, not the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as practice by many religions today, which is contrary to the Word of God.

The Catholic Church has been baptizing with water for 2000 years for the remission of sins in obedience to Jesus’ command. And you

are trying to tell us that we have it wrong?

I suggest you do a search in to when the catholic church changed how the baptisms were given to the church by the apostles. The information is there, maybe if you find it you will believe.

No, you are incorrect. It is telling us that the ark which saved

Noah from destruction is a symbol/precursor for our being saved through water baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for the remittance of our sins.

Wow, that is a little out there. Where does it say all of that? Do you not understand when it says water baptism does not remove the filth of the flesh, sin, but is for a good conscience towards God.

The “answer of a good conscience before God” means that Jesus “reconciled us to His Father” through water Baptism by which He applies the merits of His Blood sacrifice to our souls.

What do you suppose gives a man a good conscience towards God by receiving the water baptism? The man’s heart has already be changed through faith. He then is taken and given water baptism, understanding that this is the symbolic act dying to his sinful nature and taking on the nature of Christ. The man is telling the world that he has been saved through the grace of God, thus giving God the glory he so rightfully deserves.

The waters of Baptism do not cleanse my skin/flesh from dirt, but instead cleanses my soul from sin.

This is not so. When it speaks of the filth of the flesh, it is referring to sin. Notice in Romans 6 how the body of sin is destroyed which is the filth of the flesh. Water does not destroy sin. The blood of the lamb does this.

There is no baptism that puts away the filth of the flesh.

According to Romans 6 there is.

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Everyone knew that Baptism meant "water."

John’s baptism with water for repentance of sins prepared them for Jesus’ baptism with water for the remission of sins.

Your words, but are not backed by history or scripture. In the days of the apostles, everyone knew it was the baptism though the blood of the lamb that saves a man.

Born again, regeneration, water and the word, baptism in the name of Jesus, etc. all refer to the same thing – Jesus’ Water Baptism for the remission of sins.

Sorry, but there is a difference between being baptized into Christ and being baptized in the name of Christ. If it were not so, then every place where it spoke of being baptized into Christ would also being baptized in the name of Christ.

1 Peter 3:21

states that baptism now saves us.

Baptism does save us, it is not the water, but our Lord’s blood that cleanses us.

I have to unsubscribe from this thread now due to time constraints but I am sure others will answer any future questions for you.

I hope you will be back. I enjoy talking with you. I pray everything is okay with you.

Pax,
SHW

 

[guanophore]

Sorry, but it is not myself that is in denial. I cannot open your eyes to the truth of God’s Word.

Well, it sure isn’t for lack of effort on your part. You have been doing all you can to promote your modern innovative gospel since your arrival.

You have been indoctrinated to where you only see what the CC says and that is dangerous. For your mind no longer belongs to you, but to the CC.

No, heis, being well trained in right doctrine is not dangerous. On the contrary, it is the best protection when people such as yourself come along promoting new ideas that were not committed the the Church by the Apostles.

You are wrong about the mind, when one devotes one’s mind to right doctrine, one is “in Christ”, and he is dead to himself, and his life is hidden with Christ in God. Since there is no disntinction between the mind belonging to Christ, and belonging to His Bride, the Church, there is no danger. It is only at that point that our minds can most purely belong to ourselves.

You talk about understanding Jesus, but yet you have no clue how he came into my life, changing it forever. My conversion was extremely powerful and for the second time in my life, I was alive. His love filled every part of me. As I stated before, God has always been with me, even as a child.

It is great that you have had a powerful conversion experience that has changed your life. You might wish to consider why you are here on CAF. How do you know that this is not meant to be part of your conversion experience?

How about telling us your experience and then we can compare to see who’s resembles the Word of God. My conversion was just as it is written.

No, heis, authentic faith is not measured by ones’ feelings, or by one’s personal interpretation of what the Scriptures mean. Your individual assessment of what “resembles” your opinion is of absolutly no value in determining Truth.

The standard of authentic conversion experience, on the other hand, is how God sees it.

I notice that you have totally derailed yet another thread, bringing your unresolved issues about baptism. This makes four threads where I have observed this. It must be a topic that really bothers you. You may want to stick to the thread that is on that topic, since it is against the forum rules to do what you have done here.

 

[heiscominginthe]

We Catholics know the emptiness and false premise of the Protestant argument “show me in the Scriptures!” The reason is that Catholics and Protestants can read the exact same Scripture passages, but the difference is really in authority, which results in different interpretations. The same applies to early Church fathers, where Protestants interpret differently, because it fits what they want to believe, not what Christ taught and handed down. We Catholics can show you 70 x 7 times the Scriptures that were written by fellow Catholics, and the Protestants will deny every time the inerrant meaning preserved with the power of God for almost 2,000 years in His Church… until Protestants release themselves from the grip of false man made tradition and typically earthly pride that disables them from being free and seeing truth.

In reality, your expression is typical of exactly why one who clings to Protestantism will never really know the the fullness of revealed truth. What I have told you is the truth, formed from the true teachings of God’s authoritative teaching Church which relies on the Magisterium, Godly Tradition, and the Holy Scriptures authored by the Catholic Church. This is how I, or anyone else can know without error. That you object, simply shows your relation to the truth. If you knew the truth, you would not object to what I said. If you sought the truth, you would examine what I said, instead of asking someone to spoon feed you “proofs”. For instance, the way I have approached challenges to the Catholic faith is to examine each to determine what the real truth is, and that’s exactly what I have spent hours upon hours doing in relation to Protestant and other nonCatholic claims until each was determined to be true or false… all conflicts with the Church were found false.

A very telling attitude is that if you were to share the truth of Christ with me, you would be my (and any true Catholic’s) great friend, and I would thank you profusely, as I can imagine no greater human friend. On the contrary, when we share the truth of Christ with Protestants, they typically treat us like enemies, even though we are true and charitable and this would great of benefit to walk with Christ. The humble person who genuinely seeks Christ above all (including personal pride and earthly desires) would ask what that says about your relation to the truth, and the Truth?

God’s authoritative teaching Church relies on the Magisterium, Godly Tradition, and the Holy Scriptures authored by the Catholic Church. In other words, Scripture (the written word) was only meant to be part of God’s Church, not all of it. Those engaging in the man made tradition of Protestantism will take only our Bible and then proceed to interpret all kinds of things as they desire out of context of the original meaning… then tell us we’re wrong. In reality, Protestants only use part of the teachings, use them out of context, apply wrong meanings, and are therefore wrong in practice and in teaching faith. Clearly, Protestantism is not really about true meaning of Scriptures, but about self rule, and everyone deciding for themselves what is and is not moral, what is and is not truth, when this is only God’s province. We Catholics are humbly listening to God, delivering His mail. Protestants edit His mail, and tell God what He said. It’s obvious where the problem lies, and it’s not with Catholicism. The practice of Protestantism leads one directly into error, with no way of knowing whether it really is error.

Do you believe the Word of God is infallible, without mistake? You continually say there is more truth then what is written in the Word of God. Yet, if a so called truth is contrary to the Word of God, do we accept it or do we reside to the Word of God?

Then on top of that, you insist that no truth can be found outside the CC or it seems that way.

The importance of the written word was used by Jesus to combat satan, when satan attempted to tempt Jesus is the wilderness. Jesus said, “It is Written.” I think the Word of God being written has precedence over the doctrines of men.

The Word of God was not meant to be disected by theologians and philosophers and the wisdoms of the world. It was and is understanding through faith, by the Holy Spirit quickening it to us.

Men attempt to complicate the Word of God, when it was given in simplicity.

 

[guanophore]

Do you believe the Word of God is infallible, without mistake?

No, heis. But this is a very common mistake emanating from the error of Sola . The Holy Writings do not have the capacity to be infallible. Falliblity applies to actions, and taking actions requires acts of the will, discernment and the ability to take responsibility. Fallibilty applies to persons, not writings. The reason Jesus had to protect the Church with the gift of infallibility is because it is only by God’s grace that a fallible person can make an infallible act. When the writers penned the Scripture, and preached the Gospel, they were infallible - protected from making errors by the HS.

this is why it is not appropriate to try to make scripture the “final authority”. Scripture, though authoritative, cannot EXERCISE authority over persons. This is also why you never see scripture used this way in scripture itself. Authority is always given by God to people, not books.

You continually say there is more truth then what is written in the Word of God. Yet, if a so called truth is contrary to the Word of God, do we accept it or do we reside to the Word of God?

There are no Catholic Teachings that contradict the Scripture. Both came from God, so they cannot contradict. All that contradicts is your understanding of one, the other, or both. From reading your posts, I gather it is the latter.

Then on top of that, you insist that no truth can be found outside the CC or it seems that way.

This is not a Catholic position. Plenty of Truth is found outside of Catholic Teaching. God has given the fullness of HIs revelation of Himself to man to the Catholic Church.

The importance of the written word was used by Jesus to combat satan, when satan attempted to tempt Jesus is the wilderness. Jesus said, “It is Written.” I think the Word of God being written has precedence over the doctrines of men.

Of course the written word is important. It is profitable. It is not meant to be the final authority, a duty that can only be given to persons.

Of course the Holy Scripture takes precedence over the doctrines of men, however, you don’t seem to realize that all the doctrines in Catholicism come from God. Man made doctrines, such as Sola Scriptura, came from the Reformation.

1 Thess 2:13

13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

The Word of God was delivered orally, in person, to the Church by the Apostles. It started at work in the hearts of believers. This living Word of God in the Church (Sacred Tradition) did not suddenly disappear when some of it was committed to writing in the NT.

The Word of God was not meant to be disected by theologians and philosophers and the wisdoms of the world. It was and is understanding through faith, by the Holy Spirit quickening it to us.

I think it can be used for both. We are to study, to show ourselves approved. Much godly wisdom can be gained by detailed study of the inspired/inerrant scriptures. I do agree, however, if it is done apart from the HS, it is a dead end.

Men attempt to complicate the Word of God, when it was given in simplicity.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Well, it sure isn’t for lack of effort on your part. You have been doing all you can to promote your modern innovative gospel since your arrival.

You make me sound like I am of the new age movement which is not of God. I am not. I believe only in the Word of God and my gospel is the gospel of Jesus Christ. He entered my heart when I was born again, opening my eyes to his truth which is written on the tablets of my heart.

No, heis, being well trained in right doctrine is not dangerous. On the contrary, it is the best protection when people such as yourself come along promoting new ideas that were not committed the the Church by the Apostles.

Where we disagree here is your claim on what I believe is new. What I believe is what is written in the Word of God.

You are wrong about the mind, when one devotes one’s mind to right doctrine, one is “in Christ”, and he is dead to himself, and his life is hidden with Christ in God. Since there is no disntinction between the mind belonging to Christ, and belonging to His Bride, the Church, there is no danger. It is only at that point that our minds can most purely belong to ourselves.

I believe our minds are shaped by Jesus who lives in our hearts. When a man is saved/born again, he looks into a mirror and the image he sees is murky, unclear. Yet, as Christ grows in the man, the image grows more and more Christlike.

It is great that you have had a powerful conversion experience that has changed your life. You might wish to consider why you are here on CAF. How do you know that this is not meant to be part of your conversion experience?

I believe the reason I am here is because the Lord sent me. As for part of my conversion, I was saved 36 years ago. Now, I do believe that we as believers are to work together in hashing out what is and is not of God.

Although there are things we disagree on, there is also much we agree on. For instance. I believe homosexuality is wrong, is sin. I believe abortion is wrong, is sin. I believe in the ten commandments.

No, heis, authentic faith is not measured by ones’ feelings, or by one’s personal interpretation of what the Scriptures mean. Your individual assessment of what “resembles” your opinion is of absolutly no value in determining Truth.

Does a man have faith before he is born again? Does not the faith process begin there? As for faith, it comes by way of Jesus Christ, being of the spirit, not of the flesh. The flesh is at war with our spirit. That is why it is so important to remember, greater is he who is in me, then he who is in the world.

The standard of authentic conversion experience, on the other hand, is how God sees it.

I notice that you have totally derailed yet another thread, bringing your unresolved issues about baptism. This makes four threads where I have observed this. It must be a topic that really bothers you. You may want to stick to the thread that is on that topic, since it is against the forum rules to do what you have done here.

I believe that it is baptism or misuse of that has created churches that have a form of godliness, but deny the power of the Holy Spirit.

I believe baptism into Christ is the most important thing a man will ever have. For without it, he will be cast into hell. A man must be born again if he wants to enter the kingdom of God.

Forgive me for going off topic. It is just that all I believe just as baptism is the start of faith, it’s misuse has created problems in the faith.