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Joe_Kelley
Guest
I presume Mary maintained a home in Nazareth until she was given over to John at the Crucifixion. While I find no positive evidence for this, no alternative is suggested.
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patrick457
Guest
I’ve seen an alternative (and quite reasonable) suggestion: when Jesus was kicked out of Nazareth, His family (Mary included) could have also left the place. I find it reasonable - although of course, this is ultimately just speculation; we’ll never know what really happened - considering the honor-shame culture at the time (when someone is disgraced, his associates also share the blame) and the fact that Nazareth was a small village (people would have known each other): the incident would have been quite disruptive.
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patrick457
Guest
Some pictures:
http://dbcfaa79b34c8f5dfffa-7d3a62c...loads/house-of-peter-in-capernaum-416x329.jpg
http://m.interactivetimeline.com/788/capernaum/a/3.jpg
This is the remains of what was likely to be St. Peter’s house (actually a complex of houses) in Capernaum. The octagonal foundations belong to the Byzantine church that was built over it in the 5th century. (You can still see what remained of the original house in the second pic.) A modern church now stands over all these foundations.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
The modern church. The Capernaum synagogue (4th-5th century; the 1st century synagogue Jesus would have taught in probably lies under this one) is in the foreground. Beside it you can see the remains of houses.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
http://www.capernaum.custodia.org/img/news/1754.png
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
What the residential complex may have looked like in Jesus’ time.
capernaum.custodia.org/default.asp?id=5386
http://dbcfaa79b34c8f5dfffa-7d3a62c...loads/house-of-peter-in-capernaum-416x329.jpg
http://m.interactivetimeline.com/788/capernaum/a/3.jpg
This is the remains of what was likely to be St. Peter’s house (actually a complex of houses) in Capernaum. The octagonal foundations belong to the Byzantine church that was built over it in the 5th century. (You can still see what remained of the original house in the second pic.) A modern church now stands over all these foundations.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
The modern church. The Capernaum synagogue (4th-5th century; the 1st century synagogue Jesus would have taught in probably lies under this one) is in the foreground. Beside it you can see the remains of houses.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
http://www.capernaum.custodia.org/img/news/1754.png
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
What the residential complex may have looked like in Jesus’ time.
capernaum.custodia.org/default.asp?id=5386
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steve53
Guest
Luke’s account of the Passover of Jesus’ crucifixion is divided by a chapter. It is very possible that the moneychanger incident occurred at an earlier Passover, but was inserted by Luke at the beginning of his “Passover” narratives. So that would also support John as the defining historian.
Great pictures. I have been to Capernaum. Like Bethsaida not far away, “no stone has been left unturned” in the archeologists quest for something written with Jesus’ name on it!
Great pictures. I have been to Capernaum. Like Bethsaida not far away, “no stone has been left unturned” in the archeologists quest for something written with Jesus’ name on it!
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TimothyH
Guest
Pretty crooked walls. I guess some settling could have taken place over 2000 years. Seems like a hodge-podge. Maybe they added rooms as the family grew?
The octagon church isn't traditional. :tsktsk:
-Tim-
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GEddie
Guest
I imagine that rooms were added, given the lack of hallways etc.
In all likelihood, they started with two rooms, as in the Holy House under the basilica of Nazareth; and added rooms as need and financing dovetailed.
Thank you for posting the Kefar Nahum pix!!
ICXC NIKA.
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Mintaka
Guest
I know it was a sarcastic comment… but yes, octagons are a traditional ancient shape for churches. These churches were still oriented on an east-west axis, not with an altar or seating in the round (or in the eight). Our Lady’s church in Jerusalem on the site of the Temple was octagonal, as was the church on the traditional spot of the Ascension.
The eight sides stand for the Eighth Day, which is the Lord’s Day of the resurrection and the deliverance of Creation.
There’s an octagonal church in Rome which used to be thought to have been an exception to this rule, with the altar surrounded by a gallery of pillars for pilgrims to walk around. But more recent examination of the evidence shows that Renaissance architects deliberately drew it and restored it wrong, because they thought a rounded, totally symmetrical church would be more beautiful that a church oriented and decorated more toward the east.
You more often tend to see baptistries that are octagons, because then you can just stick a big ol’ font or pool right in the middle.
The eight sides stand for the Eighth Day, which is the Lord’s Day of the resurrection and the deliverance of Creation.
There’s an octagonal church in Rome which used to be thought to have been an exception to this rule, with the altar surrounded by a gallery of pillars for pilgrims to walk around. But more recent examination of the evidence shows that Renaissance architects deliberately drew it and restored it wrong, because they thought a rounded, totally symmetrical church would be more beautiful that a church oriented and decorated more toward the east.
You more often tend to see baptistries that are octagons, because then you can just stick a big ol’ font or pool right in the middle.
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Ignatius
Guest
That is a very interesting question. You are right, Scripture indicates that Jesus lived in Bethlehem, Egypt and Nazareth, and traveled to many cities but does not give the exact locations of where He lived and stayed.
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GEddie
Guest
Such directions would be useless after so many generations!
I mean, even at Kefar Nahum, though we can see the foundations, the street names, numbers (if such were even used – most likely not), and names of residents are long forgotten.
In places like Jerusalem that have been rebuilt over and over, no such references would make sense.
It makes sense TM that such was left out of the eternal word of GOD.
ICXC NIKA
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steve53
Guest
The walls were made of individual stone and plastered together with some local concoction. They didn’t carve up rock and seamlessly fit them together like Herod did.
When the walls eventually crumbled, the rock could have fallen any which way and give the impression of a jumbled mess to someone trying to do a reconstruction.
When the walls eventually crumbled, the rock could have fallen any which way and give the impression of a jumbled mess to someone trying to do a reconstruction.
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patrick457
Guest
Centralized planning wasn’t the driving force here. This isn’t a well-planned area; no straight, well-paved roads like what Romans used to build. (Nor were the builders master architects on the caliber of people like Herod the Great.) Instead, it was the domestic growth around the courtyards. Yes, the owners of the residential complexes (extended families?) focused on their courtyards, adding houses and rooms around it; the last thing they probably had in mind was whether the road outside would be wide and straight.
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/sbf/arch/asson_casa_A3_big.gif
http://www.capernaum.custodia.org/skin/custodia/img/map/outline.png
Almost looks like a labyrinth, doesn’t it?
Constantine would disagree with you on that.
The houses in Capernaum were made of undressed black basalt. (Actually, AFAIK most rural Jewish buildings so far discovered in the Galilee were made of basalt.) That’s why the 5th century synagogue stands out; it was made of white limestone.
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steve53
Guest
I’m guessing a lot of early excavators tried to restack the stone to give a better picture to tourists.
Here is what much of Bethsaida looks like- which is mentioned in the NT of course. It’s a jumble.
That was an earthquake prone region as well.
Here is what much of Bethsaida looks like- which is mentioned in the NT of course. It’s a jumble.
That was an earthquake prone region as well.
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steve53
Guest
Not sure what “undressed” black basalt is, but here is a jumbled mess from Bethsaida. I am guessing well-intentioned folks stacked up the stone as best they could over the centuries for the tourists in Capernaum.
The area was prone to earthquakes, which are not going to make the walls any straighter.
The area was prone to earthquakes, which are not going to make the walls any straighter.
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Crown_of_Stars
Guest
The pictures are beautiful! I’m always interested in looking at the ancient ruins of the Holy Land. I wish I could go there.
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steve53
Guest
According to a late-crucifixion scenario, Jesus retreated to the Galilee from Jerusalem/Bethany after the execution of John the Baptist in early A.D. 35. He celebrated the Passover of A.D. 35 on the east shores of the Decapolis, which was out of the range of Herod Antipas.
It was at the previous Passover in A.D. 34 where Jesus challenged the moneychangers and was chased out of the Temple in Jerusalem.
Herod’s army was defeated soundly by Aretas of Nabotea in the fall of A.D. 35. Herod Antipas returned to the Galilee, and Jesus and his followers, now in the Galilee, were on proverbial pins and needles.
While in the Galilee, Jesus based out of Capernaum where he was taken care of by Cephas and others, and Mary M entered the picture and we read of many stories. But it was a strategic decision. If Jesus needed, he could retreat across the Jordan river a couple miles to Bethsaida for safety if Antipas sent his troops for him. Bethsaida was under Syrian control- Antipas had no power there.
Likewise, Jesus preached mainly on the eastern shores of the Galilee (Gennesareth) in the Decapolis where Antipas had no power. He used boats top get about, not only because of the crowds but because with motivated oarsmen, the lighter fishing craft could speed away quickly from anything Antipas’ army had.
It was at that time that Jesus unveiled his “communion” ceremony when he did venture back stealthly to Nazareth and his “home” synagogue. It was a huge failure and he lost a lot of followers because of it.
In the Galilee about that time he conceived his plans to attend the Passover of A.D. 36, reassured that Antipas would probably not be there. With the turmoil in the countryside over Antipas’ defeat and John’s still-fresh execution, Jesus’ message would be received warmly if not embraced.
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GEddie
Guest
Thank you for the pix. I have not seen Bethsaida, though I have been to Kefar Nahum.
“Undressed stone” is simply stone in a natural shape, that has not been worked into a square or otherwise artificial shape.
ICXC NIKA.
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patrick457
Guest
Undressed = unhewn. Not cut into shape.
Oh, and Capernaum wasn’t discovered and excavated until the late 19th-early 20th century. It was more of a mess then than now.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
http://gb.fotolibra.com/images/previews/500222-capernaum-by-the-sea-of-galilee-1900.jpeg
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patrick457
Guest
This isn’t really the place to discuss this thing again (let’s do it someplace else), but I think this scenario relies too heavily on the idea that Antipas’ defeat (ca. 35-36) happened relatively almost immediately after he had John put to death. Josephus does claim that Antipas’ defeat by the Nabataeans was seen as divine punishment for the murder of John, but I don’t think that the two events necessarily have to be in close proximity with one another, for the mills of God ground slowly.
To use an analogy, Christians viewed the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 as divine punishment for the rejection and death of Jesus. There’s almost a forty-year gap between those two events (much more than what could have elapsed between John’s death and Antipas’ defeat), but that didn’t stop them from connecting the two events together. The other interpretation saw it as punishment for the death of James the brother of Jesus in 62 - eight years ago. I guess God is not as quick to punish people as we would like.
(On the Jewish side you have the destruction blamed upon the murder of Jonathan the high priest and other acts of bloodshed during Felix’s reign a decade or two earlier. So again, not as ‘immediate’ as some would like.)Another analogy: a Jewish belief also ascribed Pompey’s assassination in 48 BC as divine punishment for his laying siege to Jerusalem in 63 BC. That’s a fifteen-year gap there, but the 1st century BC work Psalms of Solomon (which hints to this event) could still say: “God is a righteous judge, and He is no respecter of persons. For the nations reproached Jerusalem, trampling it down; her beauty was dragged down from the throne of glory …] And I had not long to wait before God showed me the insolent one slain on the mountains of Egypt…” (2.18-19/20, 30) Yet another one is Antiochus Epiphanes, the Seleucid king who desecrated the temple and tried to impose Hellenistic culture on the Jews: it took him about three years to die after he had done that, but his death was still considered to be retribution for his desecration. Chronological proximity or distance was really not a factor in determining whether an event was some sort of divine punishment.
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patrick457
Guest
Which reminds me. There was this theory that originally, in the basilicas in Rome (which were built ‘upside-down’, so that the priest had to face the doors rather than the apse when facing east), the congregation stood (no pews back then) in the side aisles of the church - men on one side, women on the other side - and not in the central nave, so that they be would be looking at the altar from the sides, at least up until the Canon, when they would face east along with the priest towards the doors. (There was nothing to see in the sanctuary by then anyways, since the altar was hidden from view by curtains.) In other words, it wasn’t really versus populum (‘facing the people’), because nobody was literally standing facing the ministers front-and-center. In some churches in fact, the ambo or the pulpit was placed in the middle of the nave, connected to the sanctuary by a sort of raised walkway or solea.
Speaking of which, there was this church in Roman Africa (in modern Tunisia) where the altar was apparently in the middle of the nave.
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patrick457
Guest
Speaking of which, this is what the octagon church in Capernaum could have looked like.
http://www.capernaum.custodia.org/img/news/1756.png
The middle of the church stands directly over the room of the house complex which was venerated as Peter’s house. This section was decorated with a mosaic showing a peacock (a symbol of resurrection / immortality).
The funny thing about the church was that there was no trace of an altar; the apse instead contained a baptismal font. If there was an altar, it could have been a mobile-type altar (tables?) instead of a permanent one fixed into the structure.
http://www.capernaum.custodia.org/img/news/1756.png
The middle of the church stands directly over the room of the house complex which was venerated as Peter’s house. This section was decorated with a mosaic showing a peacock (a symbol of resurrection / immortality).
The funny thing about the church was that there was no trace of an altar; the apse instead contained a baptismal font. If there was an altar, it could have been a mobile-type altar (tables?) instead of a permanent one fixed into the structure.
- Status