Jesus's view on Mary

[Timmy_Z]

Luke 11:27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” (NASB)

-Luke here seems to present a perfect opportunity to convey the perfection of Mary and her extremely elevated status. Yet he does the exact opposite:

Luke 11:28But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (NASB)

-If Mary is as the RCC teaches us, why does Jesus not take this opportunity to reply to the woman: “Yes she the Queen of Heaven, and you only get to me through her, and you must make little statues of her, and pray to her and not to the father as I instructed at the beginning of this chapter.”

Thanks,
Tim

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Luke 11:27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” (NASB)

-Luke here seems to present a perfect opportunity to convey the perfection of Mary and her extremely elevated status. Yet he does the exact opposite:

Luke 11:28But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (NASB)

-If Mary is as the RCC teaches us, why does Jesus not take this opportunity to reply to the woman: “Yes she the Queen of Heaven, and you only get to me through her, and you must make little statues of her, and pray to her and not to the father as I instructed at the beginning of this chapter.”

Thanks,
Tim

That phase in salvation history was about getting people’s focus back on God the Father. Jesus Himself tried to keep a low profile and “did not come to be served but to serve”. This wasnt time for the Academy Awards.

Also in that passage Jesus is not saying “on the contrary” in the sense the Blessed Virgin is not blessed at all, but rather Jesus is saying “if you think thats good (which it is), the fact is blessedness TRANSCENDS simply being my mother and in fact ANYONE can be blessed who keeps the commandments.”

 

[Verbum_Caro]

If Mary is as the RCC teaches us, why does Jesus not take this opportunity to reply to the woman: “Yes she the Queen of Heaven, and you only get to me through her, and you must make little statues of her, and pray to her and not to the father as I instructed at the beginning of this chapter.”

Tim,

Here is my snarky reply :

1. She wasn’t Queen of Heaven yet.
2. You don’t have to make little statues of her.
3. Prayer is not mutually exclusive. Do you ever pray to Christ and not he Father?
4. There were no “Chapters” yet. There was no New Testament yet. There wouldn’t BE a New Testament for many years until the Church complied it for us.

Oh, and that part about coming to Christ through Mary?
5) Many would not understand it at that moment. Just as some do not understand it now.

For less snarky replies I look to my fellow posters.

VC

 

[PC_Master]

Also in that passage Jesus is not saying “on the contrary” in the sense the Blessed Virgin is not blessed at all, but rather Jesus is saying “if you think thats good (which it is), the fact is blessedness TRANSCENDS simply being my mother and in fact ANYONE can be blessed who keeps the commandments.”

It’s more like “But he said, Blessed rather are those…”. That’s a direct comparison of one to another. He didn’t say “Blessed also”.

 

[Timmy_Z]

but rather Jesus is saying “if you think thats good (which it is), the fact is blessedness TRANSCENDS simply being my mother and in fact ANYONE can be blessed who keeps the commandments.”

But he didn’t say that. Mary is a HUGE part of the RC system, why would Jesus be (at best) ambiguous about her essential role in salvation when given such an easy lead in question?

Thanks,
Tim

 

[porthos11]

Jesus did not say, “On the contrary.” He said, “Rather.”

Rather (Gk. menoun) here does not mean contrary. Another translation is “more truly”. He is in fact saying what makes people blessed. Why do you think the King James translates it as “Yea, rather” instead of “Nay, rather”?

A simple reading of Luke 1 will tell you that Mary did indeed hear the Word of God and observe it.

That is also why by under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, she said that all generations will call her blessed.

You cannot take one passage, apply your own interpretation, and push it at the exclusion of everything else.

 

[porthos11]

But he didn’t say that. Mary is a HUGE part of the RC system, why would Jesus be (at best) ambiguous about her essential role in salvation when given such an easy lead in question?

Thanks,
Tim

Mary is a HUGE part of the RC system because she was a HUGE part in the salvation of mankind. The obedience of one woman brought forth God into the world.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Tim,

I hope you took my above reply in good cheer.

Now that the snarkiness is out of my system, perhaps I can contribute a meaningful answer. (You be the judge of that, though).

I think I understand where you are coming from: if Mary is so important, why didn’t Christ take this opportunity to emphasize that?

It seems to me that the simplest answer is that Christ chose not too. There are other times when He would emphasize Mary’s role. For instance He chose to at the apex of His ministry on earth, while He was dying on the cross: “Behold your mother.”

I don’t think Christ’s response in the scripture passage you quoted directly contradicts or excludes any of the honor we show to Mary, or her exulted role as given by God.

What do you think?
VC

 

[christcnection1]

-Luke here seems to present a perfect opportunity to convey the perfection of Mary and her extremely elevated status. Yet he does the exact opposite:

And all the writers of the New Testament had a perfect opportunity to say that the Bible alone is the final and sole rule of faith.

If that’s what God intended, He did a miserable job of using the Bible to prove Sola Scriptura. It could have taken one measly little verse, but it’s no where to be found. Instead, most Non-Catholic Christians must conclude that God allowed His people to saunter in severe theological darkness for about 1,500 years. That’s hardly a God of attentiveness and compassion.

Of course the Lord gave us something much better and that’s the Church, a.k.a. “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” 1 Tim 3:15

Concerning the woman in Revelations 12…

catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp

catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp

God Bless,
JB

 

[Teflon93]

Luke 11:27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” (NASB)

-Luke here seems to present a perfect opportunity to convey the perfection of Mary and her extremely elevated status. Yet he does the exact opposite:

Luke 11:28But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (NASB)

-If Mary is as the RCC teaches us, why does Jesus not take this opportunity to reply to the woman: “Yes she the Queen of Heaven, and you only get to me through her, and you must make little statues of her, and pray to her and not to the father as I instructed at the beginning of this chapter.”

Thanks,
Tim

And why didn’t Christ say, “Blessed are those who read Scripture and interpret it for themselves?”

Christ made provision for Mary on the Cross itself; he made no provision for writing the New Testament.

Be careful which lines of argument you pursue lest they be used in superior fashion against your own cherished beliefs.

 

[Church_Militant]

Luke 11:27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” (NASB)

-Luke here seems to present a perfect opportunity to convey the perfection of Mary and her extremely elevated status. Yet he does the exact opposite:

Luke 11:28But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (NASB)

It always seems to me that many (not all) n-Cs just don’t bother to read the passages where the Blessed Virgin is “featured” in the New Testament and in OT prophecy.

It’s almost like they just skip over the beginning of Luke’s Gospel as some sort of “inconvenient truth” (Apologies to Mr. Gore…).

I’ve seen just about every possible interpretation deriding the Blessed Virgin’s place in scripture and in the life of Our Lord. IMO, she is the 2nd most unique person in all of human history and Our Lord certainly never dissed her the way some folks seems to think He did.

For instance, in this particular passage, it seems clear to me that Our Lord wasn’t deriding His mother, but was actually seeking to point out to the woman in the crowd that like Mary, we should all “…hear the word of God, and keep it.” Mary certainly did so in Luke 1:38 “And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word…” and Elizabeth also witnesses to this under the inspiration and fullness of the Holy Spirit when she says, “Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.” (Luke 1:42-45) Notice that in both cases, the obedience to the Word of God is emphasized.

-If Mary is as the RCC teaches us, why does Jesus not take this opportunity to reply to the woman: “Yes she the Queen of Heaven, and you only get to me through her, and you must make little statues of her, and pray to her and not to the father as I instructed at the beginning of this chapter.”

I think your comments here show a low regard and disrespect for the faith of Catholics here at CAF. What? Did you just read some anti-Catholic book or did your preacher hit the pulpit last Sunday with this sort of rhetoric and you just thought it would be cute to post it here at CAF, knowing that it would be inflammatory and offensive as well as violating the rules that you agreed to when you joined this forum?

As for the Queen of Heaven, as has been pointed out already (and many times before) that is taken from the images in John vision in Revelation 11:19-12:17.

I have given my own opinion as to why the New Testament is a so silent on the Blessed Virgin and why I believe she was assumed into heaven here. and it brings up points that I suspect that you have never really bothered to consider.

As for your remark about statues… we have statues and icons of Our Lord as well as saints as well. We also have crucifixes which constantly remind us of the price that Our Lord paid for our sins and even as St. Paul told the Galatians “…before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified” and so we, like Paul, “…decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” (1st Corinthians 2:2). Perhaps you might benefit from getting yourself a crucifix and meditating upon it in prayer. You might also consider how the Blessed Virgin felt as she stood at the foot of that cross. It might give you some insight into both Our Lord and His mother.

 

[Jestocost]

It’s more like “But he said, Blessed rather are those…”. That’s a direct comparison of one to another. He didn’t say “Blessed also”.

So are you contending that Jesus was correcting the conversation between Mary and Elizabeth (“blessed are you among women”, “all generations will count me blessed”)? One wonders why Luke would include it at all only to refute it several chapters later.

The fact is that Jesus often deflected praise, even directed at himself in order to emphasise the message. For example later in Luke when the rich young man prefaced his question with “Good teacher” Jesus replied “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.”

 

[Catholic_Dude]

It’s more like “But he said, Blessed rather are those…”. That’s a direct comparison of one to another. He didn’t say “Blessed also”.

But you wouldnt take that passage to mean Jesus was saying the Blessed Virgin was not blessed at all, that is absurd and not what “rather” is indicating.

The woman INCORRECTLY limited “blessedness” to Mary simply because She was Jesus’ Mother. Jesus said blessedness transcends physical attributes and is about obeying God’s teachings and ANYONE can do that and be blessed.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Luke 11:27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.”

Luke 11:28But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (NASB) (NASB)

Jesus being obedient to his parent. I hardly think when he is an adult he would disrespect his mother in anyway.

Mary throughout the Gospel have always faithful to the Lord. She was there at the birth of Her Son, and she was there at the cross while other disciples but John left the Lord abandoned.

When Jesus said, on the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observed. Mary did heard the Word of God and observed. You will find no Scripture showing Mary disobedience to God. Not ONE.

The Gospel of Luke also have Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit say onto Mary. "Blessed are you amongst women and blessed is the fruit of your womb. Even Mary herself, “All generation will call me blessed.”

-Luke here seems to present a perfect opportunity to convey the perfection of Mary and her extremely elevated status. Yet he does the exact opposite:

-If Mary is as the RCC teaches us, why does Jesus not take this opportunity to reply to the woman: “Yes she the Queen of Heaven, and you only get to me through her, and you must make little statues of her, and pray to her and not to the father as I instructed at the beginning of this chapter.”

Thanks,
Tim

Well in modern Protestant exegesis shows difficult in the passage which as having Jesus being disrespectful to his mother, by assuming that Mary was not obedient. Jesus, being a raised Jewish obeyed the fifth Commandment.

"Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.”

“Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.”

We know Jesus never sinned. If indeed, the context of the passage shows him dishonoring his mother by claiming she didn’t hear the word of God and observe it. Then Jesus was not sinless. He was a sinner.

Of course, this is wrong logic. Jesus is without sin. He was raised by his step-father and mother. He knew the Laws of Moses.

TimmyZ,

you interpret this Scripture passage without considering the factors.

I know you don’t use the Catechism of the Catholic Church but CCC 110 is a good reference to interpret Scripture.

110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into **account the conditions of their time **and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76

 

[ukdal1]

What? Did you just read some anti-Catholic book or did your preacher hit the pulpit last Sunday with this sort of rhetoric and you just thought it would be cute to post it here at CAF…

 

[Jaypeeto4]

ChurchMilitant has the best reply so far to Timmy’s question
(and PC Master’s assertion).

We must not forget that God is a Trinity,
and the Holy Spirit speaks the mind of the Father and the Son,
and that the Bible must be taken as a WHOLE when studying the person of Mary and God’s attitude about her.

That being said,
the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Father and the Son,
inspired Gabriel to address her as “Hail, KECHARITOMENE,” meaning Hail, you who have been FILLED with every grace.
The same Holy Spirit inspired Elizabeth to cry out, to Mary in a LOUD voice: BLESSED ARE YOU AMONG WOMEN…and WHO am I that the Mother Of My Lord should come to ME??
Elizabeth, the much older relative, and herself the recipient of a Divine Miracle, says she feels unworthy in the presence of Mary.
WHY has this been GRANTED to me, that the Mother Of My Lord should come to me??
The same Holy Spirit inspired Luke to write about Mary, TWICE,
“and His Mother stored up all these things ((about Jesus)), reflecting on them in her heart.”
This is not said about anyone else in the Gospel.
Meditate on these things, and you might learn something profound.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[SPH1]

Luke 11:27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” (NASB)

-Luke here seems to present a perfect opportunity to convey the perfection of Mary and her extremely elevated status. Yet he does the exact opposite:

Luke 11:28But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (NASB)

-If Mary is as the RCC teaches us, why does Jesus not take this opportunity to reply to the woman: “Yes she the Queen of Heaven, and you only get to me through her, and you must make little statues of her, and pray to her and not to the father as I instructed at the beginning of this chapter.”

Thanks,
Tim

But Scripture also says that all generations will call Mary blessed. Luke 1:48. So Christ can’t be saying that Mary isn’t blessed. And since you obviously refuse to call Mary blessed, you are not part of the generations scripture refers to?

All Christians go through Mary to Christ, at the minimum in the sense that Christ came into the world through her.

 

[Timmy_Z]

christcnection1:

If that’s what God intended, He did a miserable job of using the Bible to prove Sola Scriptura. It could have taken one measly little verse, but it’s no where to be found. Instead, most Non-Catholic Christians must conclude that God allowed His people to saunter in severe theological darkness for about 1,500 years. That’s hardly a God of attentiveness and compassion.

When listening to a debate I usually conclude that the one who changes the subject has lost the debate. I understand you dislike Sola Scriptura, please pick a different thread.

Church Militant:

It always seems to me that many (not all) n-Cs just don’t bother to read the passages where the Blessed Virgin is “featured” in the New Testament and in OT prophecy.

It’s almost like they just skip over the beginning of Luke’s Gospel as some sort of “inconvenient truth” (Apologies to Mr. Gore…).

I understand (as all Christians do) that Mary is an important person in Salvation History (much like all the other prominent Bible characters: David, Moses, Paul, Steven, etc…). I just feel that the RCC goes over the top with Mary.

IMO, she is the 2nd most unique person in all of human history and Our Lord certainly never dissed her the way some folks seems to think He did.

I believe Jesus frequently forsees the over elevation of Mary and tries to prevent it several times in Scripture by tempering amiration of her (I was trying to discuss one occasion in Luke 11)

I think your comments here show a low regard and disrespect for the faith of Catholics here at CAF.

Your wrong. I was trying for a bit of sarcastic humor.

I actually have recently been accused of being a closet RC

Did you just read some anti-Catholic book or did your preacher hit the pulpit last Sunday with this sort of rhetoric and you just thought it would be cute to post it here at CAF, knowing that it would be inflammatory and offensive as well as violating the rules that you agreed to when you joined this forum?

You really took offense to my post?

Catholic Dude:

But you wouldnt take that passage to mean Jesus was saying the Blessed Virgin was not blessed at all, that is absurd and not what “rather” is indicating.

I think Jesus tries to prevent the over admiration of the mortal Mary. As you say:

“The woman INCORRECTLY limited “blessedness” to Mary simply because She was Jesus’ Mother. Jesus said blessedness transcends physical attributes and is about obeying God’s teachings and ANYONE can do that and be blessed.”

porthos11

Jesus did not say, “On the contrary.” He said, “Rather.”

Rather (Gk. menoun) here does not mean contrary. Another translation is “more truly”. He is in fact saying what makes people blessed. Why do you think the King James translates it as “Yea, rather” instead of “Nay, rather”?

menoun is Strongs word #3304
It has: rather or on the contrary
My interlinear NT has: No, rather

It seems Jesus simply does not seem to recognize a special place for Mary above and beyond everyone else who also hears the word and obeys it.

Thanks,
Tim

 

[Timmy_Z]

And since you obviously refuse to call Mary blessed, you are not part of the generations scripture refers to?

Why would thinking that the RCC goes over the top with Mary prevent me from calling her blessed?

-Tim

 

[christcnection1]

When listening to a debate I usually conclude that the one who changes the subject has lost the debate. I understand you dislike Sola Scriptura, please pick a different thread.

Haha… you have to be kidding me…

“Lost the debate”

Okay, I’ll stay off the Sola Scriptura piece, though I believe it’s foundationally important to truly engage this discussion.

If you read my entire thread I gave pertinent links that directly deal with the original question/issue.

From our perspective, this passage affirms what we believe about the Blessed Virgin Mary, though indirectly. Because she perfectly carried out His will, she was the most exemplary follower of the Lord. This was His time. It was not her time. It could very well be that a message like this would throw off the mission and His plan for His mother. Though this is speculative, it’s highly reasonable.

If Mary is not full of grace (as Gabriel says), then it’s reasonable to conclude that she’s only partly full of grace and/or has some sin in her. If she is completely full of grace, which is an accurate reading, then she is without blemish. All of this of course happened before the visitation of the Holy Spirit.

Mary’s Immaculate Conception says more about God’s grace than it does about Mary’s greatness. Furthermore, if God made Eve sinless, and she was the one who brought death into the world, how much more appropriate would it be to preserve Mary from sin by bringing eternal life into the world through Jesus Christ?

If Jesus was to perfectly follow “honor thy mother,” it’s reasonable to conclude that preserving her from sin was a loving and honorable thing to do.

Even Martin Luther would agree with our take on this issue.