Jesus's view on Mary

[Timmy_Z]

Because she perfectly carried out His will, she was the most exemplary follower of the Lord.

Jesus seems to view John the Baptist as His greatest follower:
Matthew 11:11"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! (NASB)

It could very well be that a message like this would throw off the mission

I do believe overly emphasizing any one mortal throw’s off the mission of spreading Christ.

To go beyond my OP, Jesus seems to divert away from Mary everytime His family is brought up:

Luke 8: 20And it was reported to Him, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You.”
21But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

Matthew 12:46-5046While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. 47Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
48But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”
49And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers!
50"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

Mark3:31Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him.
32A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You.”
33Answering them, He said, “Who are My mother and My brothers?”
34Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers!
35"For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

Jesus very clearly avoids every opportunity to hint at any of the RCC particulars on Mary, and all of the synoptic writers (guided by the Holy Spirit) saw this as an important story to record.

If Mary is not full of grace (as Gabriel says), then it’s reasonable to conclude that she’s only partly full of grace and/or has some sin in her

Or “full of grace” means something different.

Mary’s Immaculate Conception says more about God’s grace than it does about Mary’s greatness. Furthermore, if God made Eve sinless, and she was the one who brought death into the world, how much more appropriate would it be to preserve Mary from sin by bringing eternal life into the world through Jesus Christ?

If Jesus was to perfectly follow “honor thy mother,” it’s reasonable to conclude that preserving her from sin was a loving and honorable thing to do

This reasoning makes really does make sense to me. The words of Jesus just seem to disagree.

Even Martin Luther would agree with our take on this issue.

I have heard this before, can you please post it?

Thanks,
Tim

 

[Milliardo]

Luke 11:27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” (NASB)

-Luke here seems to present a perfect opportunity to convey the perfection of Mary and her extremely elevated status. Yet he does the exact opposite:

Luke 11:28But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (NASB)

-If Mary is as the RCC teaches us, why does Jesus not take this opportunity to reply to the woman: “Yes she the Queen of Heaven, and you only get to me through her, and you must make little statues of her, and pray to her and not to the father as I instructed at the beginning of this chapter.”

Thanks,
Tim

If one would notice, Jesus actually indirectly praises Mary by saying that one is blessed who hears God’s word and observes it, because He knew that if anyone there perfectly observes every word He says, it would be His mother.

 

[Gamera]

-If Mary is as the RCC teaches us, why does Jesus not take this opportunity to reply to the woman: "Yes she the Queen of Heaven …

“I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth …,” John 16:12-13.

 

[Penitus]

From Dave Armstrong:

socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/02/did-jesus-renounce-marian-veneration.html
My Englishman’s Greek Concordance shows that the word for “rather” here, menounge (Strong’s word #3304) is used four times in the NT: Lk 11:28, Rom 9:20, 10:18, and Phil 3:8. Apparently, it can mean a contrast; however, this contrast need not negate what came before it. A clear example is Phil 3:8. In Phil 3:7 Paul says (KJV):

  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Other translations:

“Indeed” (RSV) “What is more” (NIV) “Not only that” (Jerusalem) “I would say more” (NEB) “More than that” (NRSV / NASB).

Clearly, the word in this passage does not negate what came before, since the comparison is between “gainful things” and “all things.” The second didn’t undermine the first, but merely expanded upon it, making the category even broader. Likewise in Lk 11:27-28.

My New Bible Commentary (ed. D. Guthrie, rev. 1970, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, p. 906), a reputable Protestant source, states:

  The woman's rather sentimental benediction on Jesus' mother meant, 'If only I had such a son as this.' Jesus' reply is that something else matters far more, to hear the message He proclaimed and to obey it (cf. 6:46-49).

This verse has no bearing whatever on the veneration of Mary, let alone undermining it. One must understand the Jewish “literary technique” of comparison and contrast, and it is improper to regard all instances of that in terms of an “either/or” approach, as Protestants are so often prone to do.

 

[mangy_dog]

Luke 11:27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” (NASB)

-Luke here seems to present a perfect opportunity to convey the perfection of Mary and her extremely elevated status. Yet he does the exact opposite:

Luke 11:28But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (NASB)

-If Mary is as the RCC teaches us, why does Jesus not take this opportunity to reply to the woman: “Yes she the Queen of Heaven, and you only get to me through her, and you must make little statues of her, and pray to her and not to the father as I instructed at the beginning of this chapter.”

Thanks,
Tim

Tim, tim tim tim tim!.. The word that begins in Genesis 3:15 and and echoes thru the Gospels all the way to Apocalypse 12:17.
The Lord was appealing to the greater virtues and example of Mary, those who hear the word of God and keep it!
And I know where your protestant mind is heading next…“your mother and bothers are out here waiting for you”…
Again Jesus emphasizes the importance of His Mother and those who are like His Mother…“these are my Mother and brother and sisters,…those who hear the word of God and keep it…”
We catholics don’t attribute anything to Mary that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit haven’t already done.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[mercygate]

Luke 11:27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” (NASB)

-Luke here seems to present a perfect opportunity to convey the perfection of Mary and her extremely elevated status. Yet he does the exact opposite:

Luke 11:28But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (NASB)

-If Mary is as the RCC teaches us, why does Jesus not take this opportunity to reply to the woman: “Yes she the Queen of Heaven, and you only get to me through her, and you must make little statues of her, and pray to her and not to the father as I instructed at the beginning of this chapter.”

Thanks,
Tim

Marian devotion arises out of the development of doctrine concerning the Person of Jesus Christ. The full significance of Mary’s role in the salvation story emerges out of the fights against heretical beliefs in the 2nd and 3rd centuries: Christ is human but not God. Christ is God but not human.

The codification of the Chalcedonian definition, which begins at the Council of Ephesus, led to our understanding of Mary’s essential place in relation to her Son.

You have never heard a Catholic say, nor will you EVER hear a Catholic say that we should “pray to her [Mary] and not to the Father.”

 

[VociMike]

Jesus seems to view John the Baptist as His greatest follower:
Matthew 11:11"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! (NASB)

It is tradition (though not doctrine) that John the Baptist also lived a life without sin. That would mean that, indeed, none were greater than him. None can be more without sin than one who is sinless.

Oh, and if this passage does mean that J the B was greater than Mary, does it also mean that J the B was greater than Jesus, who was also born of woman?

 

[Shiann]

Luke 11:27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” (NASB)

-Luke here seems to present a perfect opportunity to convey the perfection of Mary and her extremely elevated status. Yet he does the exact opposite:

Luke 11:28But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (NASB)

-If Mary is as the RCC teaches us, why does Jesus not take this opportunity to reply to the woman: “Yes she the Queen of Heaven, and you only get to me through her, and you must make little statues of her, and pray to her and not to the father as I instructed at the beginning of this chapter.”

Thanks,
Tim

Seems to me that’s exactly what Christ is doing here…exalting his mother as having PERFECT OBEDIENCE- rather than exalting her for her bearing of him.

 

[Gamera]

1. She wasn’t Queen of Heaven yet.

Is that true? I’m not so sure. She was crowned Queen of Heaven upon her Assumption, I’m with you there, but since the queen in Hebrew culture was the mother of the King, didn’t she actually become queen upon Jesus’ birth?

 

[Teflon93]

I’m not sure I quite understand the need to denigrate Mary.

Paul cruelly persecuted Christians prior to his conversion, and yet our Protestant brethren have no trouble exalting him, above even Peter, who is clearly foremost of the Apostles.

Mary cannot be written out of the gospel, playing as she does such a pivotal role in Christ’s life and ministry. Who else was present at Christ’s birth, at Cana where his ministry began (even precipitating it), at the foot of the Cross when his earthly ministry ended, and in the upper room with the resurrected Christ?

How can one claim to love the Bible and love Christ without loving Mary? Does anyone claim Christ didn’t love her?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Why would thinking that the RCC goes over the top with Mary prevent me from calling her blessed?

-Tim

Well, is the mere fact that CC honors her so much preventing you from calling her Blessed?

 

[mangy_dog]

Is that true? I’m not so sure. She was crowned Queen of Heaven upon her Assumption, I’m with you there, but since the queen in Hebrew culture was the mother of the King, didn’t she actually become queen upon Jesus’ birth?

In our natural order of percieving people, places and things…it would seem natural to think that Mary was crowned Queen of Heaven upon Her Assumption. But, there is a deeper mystery here than meets the eye. The Archangel Gabriel when he first arrived in the presence of Mary, greeted Her with a royal greeting - Hail, followed by “Full of Grace” used as a proper name. In other parts of the Bible (be it hebrew or christian scriptures) no one else recieves that kind of greeting before the message on behalf of a messenger angel. With Abraham it was, " Abraham, don’t slay your son Isaac". Just the name and the message. Same thing with Zecharias, straight to the message. Mary is the only one who recieves this “special” greeting.
In my meditations I often wonder how the Archangel Gabriel must’ve been given the mission to announce to “a virgin” the message of the messiah. Upon arrival He must’ve been amazed of who this woman was and of the fullness of grace - and recognized her as “his queen”. Hence the greeting and the proper name.

But that’s just me in my musings and contemplations.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Is that true? I’m not so sure. She was crowned Queen of Heaven upon her Assumption, I’m with you there, but since the queen in Hebrew culture was the mother of the King, didn’t she actually become queen upon Jesus’ birth?

How do you know she was crowned Queen of Heaven?

 

[Mannyfit75]

How do you know she was crowned Queen of Heaven?

She is the woman in Revelation 12:1-5.

1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. 3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.

This woman can be identified as three figures, the Church, Israel, and Mary.

If you try to interpret as individuals. We can identified the male child as Jesus. We know this to be Jesus because he was to rule all nation with an iron rod. Her son was taken up to God and to his throne. This sounds like the ascension of Our Lord. So the male-child is Jesus.

Who gave birth to Jesus. Mary.

Also in Ancient Near East, kingdoms have kings have mothers as their queen.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King’s followers. She is the Queen Mother (or “Gebirah”). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel’s royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

Jesus inherit the kingdom of David. He continue this tradition and make his own Mother as Queen of Heaven.

 

[porthos11]

porthos11

menoun is Strongs word #3304
It has: rather or on the contrary
My interlinear NT has: No, rather

It seems Jesus simply does not seem to recognize a special place for Mary above and beyond everyone else who also hears the word and obeys it.

Thanks,
Tim

Take a good look at your lexicon, and you will see that menoun means both “Rather” and “Moreso” or “Even more”. Also see where “menoun” occurs in Romans 10:18, where the exact same word translates into “verily” or “certainly”.

The meaning of the word commands us not to read that Jesus was denying his mother’s blessedness, the Holy Spirit had already inspired Elizabeth to say that. If Jesus were saying “On the contrary, my mother is not blessed” then he contradicts the Holy Spirit, and we know that’s not possible.

The word means that Jesus is saying that his mother is not blessed because of her biological relationship with him (e.g. held, nursed) but because she heard and kept God’s word. Again read Luke 1. That’s why Rather or “More so” is the better translation, not “On the contrary”, or “No rather”.

 

[DarkMark]

How do you know she was crowned Queen of Heaven?

The Book of Revelation tells us that.

 

[Mintaka]

Both “blessed are those who hear the Word of God and keep it” and “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone” are great riddle comments. They contain the answer.

Obviously, Jesus is God! So He’s joshing the man, encouraging him to think about just why God has sent into his heart the desire to call this particular Son of Man by one of God’s attributes. “You’re almost there,” Jesus is chuckling to himself.

The other one is even better. Not only is Mary blessed because she obeys God, but she literally heard the Word of God (from Gabriel) and kept it (as Jesus, in her womb and her house)! So Jesus is complimenting His mother’s piety to the crowd, while cleverly joshing His mother for coming to fetch and “keep” him some more.

This is the Bible, where puns and wordplay abound.

 

[Church_Militant]

Church Militant:

I understand (as all Christians do) that Mary is an important person in Salvation History (much like all the other prominent Bible characters: David, Moses, Paul, Steven, etc…). I just feel that the RCC goes over the top with Mary.You just feel…but I pointed you to what the Word of God actually says. How do you figure that your opinion outweighs the Word of God? I can’t understand that.

I believe Jesus frequently forsees the over elevation of Mary and tries to prevent it several times in Scripture by tempering amiration of her (I was trying to discuss one occasion in Luke 11)

I knew that, but I’ve seen that assertion before and in the context of the passages that pertain to the Blessed Virgin it just doesn’t wash.

Why didn’t you choose John 2:1-11 with special attention on verses 2-5?

Your wrong. I was trying for a bit of sarcastic humor.

Sarcasm just never works on forums…

I actually have recently been accused of being a closet RC

I don’t think you’ll have that problem here.

You really took offense to my post?

Hey, put yourself in my shoes. Most of the people that I encounter who come off with stuff like you have posted make no effort whatever to be considerate of my faith in their comments. Read my testimony here. I am well familiar with “witnessing” and some of the things that n-Cs tend to assert and their tone when they do so. Few seem to give any consideration to how they come across to us faithful Catholics. Most that I have met take a tone that seems to indicate they could care less about offending me.

Usually at that point I just walk away. Except here at CAF which I consider my internet home.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Is that true? I’m not so sure. She was crowned Queen of Heaven upon her Assumption, I’m with you there, but since the queen in Hebrew culture was the mother of the King, didn’t she actually become queen upon Jesus’ birth?

Hi Gamera,

Thank you for pointing that out! My original post was a bit snarky, and I may have been inaccurate on that point.

I was thinking along the lines of “coronation”, and the progression of the glorious mysteries of the Rosary.

I suppose one could say that until a individual is crowned they haven’t yet taken office. This view might be supported by (#59)Lumen Gentium when it states

[T]he Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all guilt of original sin, on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe. . .

It would seem, though, that the above quote doesn’t necessarily mean that she wasn’t Queen prior to her Assumption. The enyclical Ad caeli reginam(#35) seems to support your view:

As We have already mentioned, Venerable Brothers, according to ancient tradition and the sacred liturgy the main principle on which the royal dignity of Mary rests is without doubt her Divine Motherhood. In Holy Writ, concerning the Son whom Mary will conceive, We read this sentence: “He shall be called the Son of the most High, and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father, and he shall reign in the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end,” and in addition Mary is called “Mother of the Lord”;from this it is easily concluded that she is a Queen, since she bore a son who, at the very moment of His conception, because of the hypostatic union of the human nature with the Word, was also as man King and Lord of all things. So with complete justice St. John Damascene could write: "When she became Mother of the Creator, she truly became Queen of every creature." Likewise, it can be said that the heavenly voice of the Archangel Gabriel was the first to proclaim Mary’s royal office.

The force of *Ad caeli reginam *seems hard to ignore. Your point tracks it almost exactly. Well done!

Thank you for bringing such an interesting point to our attention.
God bless,
VC

 

[Milliardo]

I have heard this before, can you please post it?

Thanks,
Tim

Luther’s take on Mary:
“The great thing is none other than that she became the Mother of God; in which process so many and such great gifts were bestowed upon her that no one is able to comprehend them. Thereupon follows all honor, all blessedness, and the fact that in the whole race of men only one person is above all the rest, one to whom no one else is equal. For that reason her dignity is crowded into a single phrase when we call her the Mother of God; no one can say greater things of her or to her, even if he had as many tongues as leaves and blades of grass, as the stars in heaven and sands on the seashore. It must also be meditated in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.”

• Die Erklarung des Magnificat - 1521.