Jewish Catholic (The do's and don't's of the customs)

[gcshapero]

I think this was all very well stated. This may be my hang-up though…

And should you choose to celebrate it, you would be doing so knowing that a) it was a ceremony given By God to the Jewish people, and b) it foreshadows what you believe - that it has come to perfection in the Eucharist.

It was a ceremony given By God to the Jewish people, and foreshadowing what would come to fulfillment through Christ.

So the question is then WHY would the Seder meal need to be celebrated since God gave it to the Jewish people who were still in waiting for the Messiah when that waiting period has passed and He has already delivered us? We already have the Seder meal made perfect through the Eucharist.

Would there even be a point at all besides reflecting on the Old Covenant coming into the New? And even if we do that, there may even be concerns as it would still be acting out a religious ceremony which involves a motive of waiting for the Messiah.

A good question still is why do so many Catholics still hold such a strong position on not celebrating it – not because of disrespect for the Jews (though I’ve heard that as well)

 

[otjm]

It still remains a religious ceremony and, even after Christ, celebrated in waiting for the messiah. This is where I struggle to celebrate it.

That gets to the heart of the matter.

Granted, maybe I’m wrong and there is acceptance to this (IE, celebrated as a precursor to Maundy Thursday recognizing the old covenant coming into the new), but I haven’t heard why the Seder meal, if under Rabbinic Judaism is a recognition of waiting for the messiah, is not blasphemy.

It is not blasphemy as it is not done to blaspheme. That is an intentional act to speak sacrilegiously about God. Jews do it to honor God; in that they are mistaken about the Messiah does not impute a sacrilegious intent to a religious act, done piously; there may be more of an issue with Jews who either have no concept of God, or see religious celebrations as only social.

And should you choose to celebrate it, you would be doing so knowing that a) it was a ceremony given By God to the Jewish people, and b) it foreshadows what you believe - that it has come to perfection in the Eucharist.

There was a time when Catholics, post Vatican 2, would celebrate the Seder meal; subsequently (and I believe it was Pope John Paul 2 who said it) we were requested to not celebrate it, as a point of honoring the Jews (it being seen as disrespectful to celebrate it).

Lest anyone in this thread say that it is “immoral” or “sinful”, they need to provide something from the Church saying so, not their own opinion or that of some apologist.

As far as I can see (unless and until someone can show we are bound by law to not celebrate it) I think it is up to you.

Why do Jews celebrate it? As an anamnesis, as a joining in with Jews centuries ago fleeing Pharaoh, as a reminder of the covenant between God and the Jewish people. And God never denies His covenants. They most certainly do not celebrate it as a means of blaspheming God.

 

[otjm]

This is true, but how does one draw the line?

I disagree with Inquiry that upholding the old covenant is any problem
God has never gone back on any of His covenants. He has brought this covenant with the Jewish people to fulfillment. Only if one, knowing that the covenant has been fulfilled in the Eucharist, were to celebrate the Seder Meal as a denial of the Eucharist would there be a problem.

For some, they say anything that is celebrated within Rabbinic Judaism (IE, Judaism today) would be wrong. Why do you suppose they say this?

There are all sorts of people running around with all sorts of opinions which are either somewhere out in La La Land, and/or run contrary to what the Church teaches. The church does not teach that. Period.

 

[gcshapero]

There are all sorts of people running around with all sorts of opinions which are either somewhere out in La La Land, and/or run contrary to what the Church teaches. The church does not teach that. Period.

I’ve heard very weird/nonsensical arguments against it. I’ve also heard fairly sound cases against it. I don’t want to dismiss them as being in La La Land right off the bat if they have a point.

 

[otjm]

I would suspect that with some of them, it goes back to battles fought for centuries, back to the time of Christ. There has been a streak of anti-Semitism among members of the Church for 2,000 years. Denying that is like denying that we have had bad Popes.

As to others, a whole lot of Catholics do not know everything the Church teaches. With some of them it is ignorance rather than malice. Not every Catholic has read Nostra Aetatae - or even knows it exists.

 

[gcshapero]

I would suspect that with some of them, it goes back to battles fought for centuries, back to the time of Christ. There has been a streak of anti-Semitism among members of the Church for 2,000 years. Denying that is like denying that we have had bad Popes.

As to others, a whole lot of Catholics do not know everything the Church teaches. With some of them it is ignorance rather than malice.

I’ve certainly encountered my share of anti-semites, but the points they’ve provided aren’t anti-semitic.

If they are proposing that the Church has already made a doctrinal statement on this, then they’re wrong – the Church hasn’t. But if they are using logic behind what our boundaries are, just to be prudent, then it’s fair to review with caution.

Not trying to be to argumentative – I think you’ve brought up excellent points.

 

[otjm]

Of course Catholicism is Judaism in fullness, but this is more in light of cultural Judaism. But the religion has been fulfilled, where does that leave the culture as it stands?

In God’s grace.

 

[gcshapero]

In God’s grace.

In God’s grace, yes…but in action, where does it leave it? The Irish, the Ukrainians, the Portuguese, the Poles, the Mexicans, the Bolivians, etc…they all have their cultures (which of course can evolve, and they have their pedigree), but they also get to continue their old traditions.

What about the Jewish culture though? This one’s a bit trickier because it’s not simply a nation – the faith is embedded in the culture.

 

[otjm]

What about the Jewish culture though? This one’s a bit trickier because it’s not simply a nation – the faith is embedded in the culture.

And how.

However, there are distinct differences in the issue between Catholics and Jews than there is with Catholics and any other culture which also has a faith distinct and separate from Catholicism. India, Saudi Arabia, Japan all come to mind immediately

Ultimately it is going to be up to you. As an aside, I don’t know, since you have not said, in what context you might celebrate a Seder Meal - with other Jewish adults, with your own family alone. I am not sure anyone can give you a definitive answer, and from your statement, it appears some have given you answers which are not “officially” founded in what the Church (as opposed to members) has to say. What you are going to get are people’s opinions. And I often say that everyone has two things: an opinion and halitosis; and often the two share similarities. They both stink.

I don’t envy you the dilemma; I came from a long family tradition of Catholicism.

A Jew praying for the coming of a Messiah is certainly not blasphemic; he/she wants that Messiah to come. If saying the prayer(s) which reflect that are the stumbling block, then that is what you will have to decide upon; the rest of it - other Jewish feasts and celebrations, and the rest of the Seder Meal do not appear to be problematic.

I wish I could be with you when others are expressing their opinions as I might be able to probe a bit deeper as to the “why” they hold them. I know of many Catholics who hold that one should absolutely never go to any Protestant service, the fear being that I would put my faith in jeopardy. My faith is in no way in jeopardy; I know and accept what the Church teaches and am not going to be swayed by a Protestant service. I also would never participate in a communion service during one.

And perhaps that is the bone of contention with other Catholics - that they see participation in a Seder Meal to be the equivalent of participating in a communion service. I disagree, but that may be the contention.

 

[po18guy]

That is the question of the ages. Being freed from the Mosaic law can be more than a sea change in thought and perception. Difficult for (as fair as I know) a pure gentile to imagine the harmonizing of old and new.

 

[gcshapero]

Thank you all for the insight. Very much appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

 

[EndTimes]

I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions.

Virtually all the Earliest Christians are “Jewish” including Christ, Jesus.

There’s nothing wrong with any Celebration - Action or Belief…
with this caveat: - as long as it’s not in opposition to Jesus / Gospel

That said, The beliefs and behaviors of the early Jewish-Christian-Disciples
can be directly Gleaned from the New Testament - including the epistles.

Any more Questions?