Jewish group wants Mormons to stop proxy baptisms

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BDawg said:
Hi nebula,

So what do you suggest we do, even if we come to terms with our “profound ignorance”? Abandon our beliefs and practices whenever someone says it makes them “feel bad”?

I have read commentary articles by Jewish rabbis that say these Jewish groups ought to lay off the Mormons, because the Mormons have a relatively excellent record of treating the Jews well. And from the Mormon point of view, we are showing respect to the dead by doing this work for them.

Is this an invalid opinion, because these rabbis weren’t being sensitive enough to Jewish people’s feelings?

When I say something like, “well if they don’t think it works why the heck do they care?” what I am really saying is:

“People have all kinds of religious beliefs and practices, and sometimes religious differences lead people to start killing each other. So it is a wise person who doesn’t get too worked up about other people’s religious beliefs. In this case, the Mormons’ religious differences with others lead them to peacefully proselytize and to perform peaceful, private, non-intrusive rituals for the dead who were not Mormons. Maybe some people don’t like it, but in the grand scheme of things, it could be a lot worse. So if it were me, I would shrug my shoulders and say, ‘Who cares?’”
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Nope, what I would suggest is that Mormons not be surprised or offended when it turns out that they are profoundly disturbing people who have an almost mystical regard for names or a deep reverence for their ancestors. Fact of the matter is, it makes people angry. That alone doesn’t mean that you should stop doing what you do, but Mormons shouldn’t be ignorant of how their actions are perceived by others and the factd of the matter is that some fights are inevitable.
 
Funny that anyone else would think that the proxy baptism by the mutants from Kolob would have such spiritual efficacy!
 
If you read the OP closely, you’ll see that Mormons have stopped baptising on behalf of the dead the holocaust survivors back in 1995, upon request, except in the rare case of a direct descendant. So this matter was closed 14 years ago. This guy is just harassing the LDS, trying to get a little attention. I think he needs a slap upside the head.
 
nebula said:
Nope, what I would suggest is that Mormons not be surprised or offended when it turns out that they are profoundly disturbing people who have an almost mystical regard for names or a deep reverence for their ancestors. Fact of the matter is, it makes people angry. That alone doesn’t mean that you should stop doing what you do, but Mormons shouldn’t be ignorant of how their actions are perceived by others and the factd of the matter is that some fights are inevitable.
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I accept all this, but reserve the right to my opinion that some of these fights are inevitable because some people take offense WAAAAAYYYYYY too easily.😛 I’m not surprised by it–I just think it’s stupid.
 
BDawg said:
I accept all this, but reserve the right to my opinion that some of these fights are inevitable because some people take offense WAAAAAYYYYYY too easily.😛 I’m not surprised by it–I just think it’s stupid.
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bdawg,

For instance, consider the extreme regard with which orthodox Jews hold the Torah. If it’s out of it’s aron, they all face it, they greet it, hail it etc. They do not touch it with bare hands, people ritually impure do not handle it… why? It’s just a book. You could say the same thing-- ridiculous right? If someone came and stole one and desicrated it and they all mourned-- is that taking offense WAYYY too easily? Now keep with me here. The point of this is that in that tradition words mean something. The Torah is the biggest example of this but it’s true in other areas as well. For instance, orthodox Jews will not name their babies after living relatives- why? because of the tradition that the angel of death when coming for the older relative will take the younger one with the same name. Do you see where I’m going with this? The same sort of reasoning that is behind the veneration of the Torah, the reasoning that goes into venerating mere words, is applied to names.

You may not agree with this bdawg, but if I were to sell my garments and temple robes to an evangelical, would you get yourself WAYYYY too offended? It’s just stupid clothing, after all. Who cares. No one got hurt. Why not tell everyone your temple name? It’s just a word after all. Who cares right?

The fact that you don’t understand why people take so much offense over this issue may have more to do with your ignorance (I don’t mean this in a mean way) than it does about the attitudes of those being offended. Before you brush it all off it may help to thoroughly understand the worldviews of the people claiming so much offense. At least attempt some empathy before being so dismissive.
 
faithfulone said:
Didn’t you guys baptize Hitler by proxy too? And some of the Popes? Why are you baptizing people by proxy that have already been baptized?
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Ummm - The Roman Catholic Church doesn’t recognize baptisms from The Church of Jesus Christ, LDS and vice-versa.
 
nebula said:
bdawg,

For instance, consider the extreme regard with which orthodox Jews hold the Torah. If it’s out of it’s aron, they all face it, they greet it, hail it etc. They do not touch it with bare hands, people ritually impure do not handle it… why? It’s just a book. You could say the same thing-- ridiculous right? If someone came and stole one and desicrated it and they all mourned-- is that taking offense WAYYY too easily? Now keep with me here. The point of this is that in that tradition words mean something. The Torah is the biggest example of this but it’s true in other areas as well. For instance, orthodox Jews will not name their babies after living relatives- why? because of the tradition that the angel of death when coming for the older relative will take the younger one with the same name. Do you see where I’m going with this? The same sort of reasoning that is behind the veneration of the Torah, the reasoning that goes into venerating mere words, is applied to names.

You may not agree with this bdawg, but if I were to sell my garments and temple robes to an evangelical, would you get yourself WAYYYY too offended? It’s just stupid clothing, after all. Who cares. No one got hurt. Why not tell everyone your temple name? It’s just a word after all. Who cares right?

The fact that you don’t understand why people take so much offense over this issue may have more to do with your ignorance (I don’t mean this in a mean way) than it does about the attitudes of those being offended. Before you brush it all off it may help to thoroughly understand the worldviews of the people claiming so much offense. At least attempt some empathy before being so dismissive.
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Hi nebula,
  1. The Mormons didn’t steal any sacred objects from anyone. They just say dead people’s names in a private sacrament. Catholics pray for the dead. Should my kids be offended if some of my Catholic relatives pray for me when I die?
  2. If you were to sell your temple clothing to an Evangelical, I would think you were sort of a sleaze. And yet, I can’t imagine getting too worked up about it. People spat on, whipped, and killed Jesus Christ. Whatever you do to some articles of clothing is nothing to get my knickers twisted about. So sell away, if it rows your boat. My opinion of you would be considerably diminished, but I wouldn’t be screaming about it to the press.
  3. Which brings me again to the point. I can understand people getting annoyed by our practice of baptism for the dead. But considering it is a private thing that nobody would even know about if Helen Radkey weren’t on a mission to embarrass the Mormons, I think it is ridiculous to get worked up about this.
I’ll quote Brigham Young to round out my point of view.

“He who takes offense when offense is not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when offense is intended is usually a fool.”

Call me insensitive, but I believe there are plenty of fools running around, and there is a point beyond which trying to be “sensitive” to their concerns turns into codependency.

The LDS Church has tried very hard to be sensitive to the concerns and feelings of these Holocaust survivors. But they insist on taking offense when offense is not intended, despite our best efforts. I see no reason to try to bend any further.
 
BDawg said:
Hi nebula,
  1. The Mormons didn’t steal any sacred objects from anyone. They just say dead people’s names in a private sacrament. Catholics pray for the dead. Should my kids be offended if some of my Catholic relatives pray for me when I die?
  2. If you were to sell your temple clothing to an Evangelical, I would think you were sort of a sleaze. And yet, I can’t imagine getting too worked up about it. People spat on, whipped, and killed Jesus Christ. Whatever you do to some articles of clothing is nothing to get my knickers twisted about. So sell away, if it rows your boat. My opinion of you would be considerably diminished, but I wouldn’t be screaming about it to the press.
  3. Which brings me again to the point. I can understand people getting annoyed by our practice of baptism for the dead. But considering it is a private thing that nobody would even know about if Helen Radkey weren’t on a mission to embarrass the Mormons, I think it is ridiculous to get worked up about this.
I’ll quote Brigham Young to round out my point of view.

“He who takes offense when offense is not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when offense is intended is usually a fool.”

Call me insensitive, but I believe there are plenty of fools running around, and there is a point beyond which trying to be “sensitive” to their concerns turns into codependency.

The LDS Church has tried very hard to be sensitive to the concerns and feelings of these Holocaust survivors. But they insist on taking offense when offense is not intended, despite our best efforts. I see no reason to try to bend any further.
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bdwag,

I the key here is the holocaust. That takes a normal offense and amplifies it several times. In a way, you could make the argument that the use of the names are worse than the abuse of physical articles since they relate to specific people. Honestly, I think a lot of people are kind of superstitious about names and think that Mormons actually could do some kind of pyschic or spiritual damage. Even if they don’t express it like that, if you sit down and talk to them long enough for more people than you’d realize this is a thought going through their minds. It appears to them sinister.

In any case, am I a fan of getting overly offended? No. Do I think Mormons shoudl stop what they perceive to be their religious duties because it offends others? No. But on the other hand, I don’t want to hear about Mormons getting offended when others try to derail their ability from gathering up names (actually the last Sunstone reported that a Catholic parish has put a stop to using its resources for that purpose). I just think Mormons should expect offense and not whine about it. I don’t think you are, but you know who I’m talking about.
 
rmcmullan said:
If you read the OP closely, you’ll see that Mormons have stopped baptising on behalf of the dead the holocaust survivors back in 1995, upon request, except in the rare case of a direct descendant. So this matter was closed 14 years ago. This guy is just harassing the LDS, trying to get a little attention. I think he needs a slap upside the head.
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Evidently you didn’t read the article very closely. The first paragraph alone states “the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.” and, further down in the article, it states, “But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by a Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.” and, “She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate Mormon religious rites, including baptisms, had been conducted for these Holocaust victims, some as recently as July.”

Maybe you should actually read the entire article at the link.

Mormons want all the respect in the world for their beliefs, yet aren’t willing to do the same for others, and this is a prime example.
 
twopekinguys said:
Evidently you didn’t read the article very closely. The first paragraph alone states “the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.” and, further down in the article, it states, “But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by a Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.” and, “She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate Mormon religious rites, including baptisms, had been conducted for these Holocaust victims, some as recently as July.”

Maybe you should actually read the entire article at the link.

Mormons want all the respect in the world for their beliefs, yet aren’t willing to do the same for others, and this is a prime example.
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This is a legitimate point. Mormons, at least the Mormon leadership, is obsessed wtih obtaining respect and tolerance for Mormonism but this just isn’t going to happen when they are doing by proxy works for the dead of other religious groups. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
 
twopekinguys said:
Evidently you didn’t read the article very closely. The first paragraph alone states “the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.” and, further down in the article, it states, “But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by a Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.” and, “She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate Mormon religious rites, including baptisms, had been conducted for these Holocaust victims, some as recently as July.”

Maybe you should actually read the entire article at the link.

Mormons want all the respect in the world for their beliefs, yet aren’t willing to do the same for others, and this is a prime example.
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Hi twopekinguys,

Notice how Helen Radkey comes to the conclusion that Mormons are violating the agreement. She searches for “Jewish-sounding” names in the records. How does she know they are Holocaust survivors? How does she know that they aren’t some Mormon’s parents or grandparents (which are not covered by the agreement)?

She doesn’t.

She’s just making flimsy assertions because she hates Mormons. Some people who hate Catholics do the same thing.
 
I was on another thread, and an LDS poster told me that you get a choice whether you want to be baptized or not by the Mormons after you die. So it’s up to you. They can’t baptize you unless you want to be baptized.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
I was on another thread, and an LDS poster told me that you get a choice whether you want to be baptized or not by the Mormons after you die. So it’s up to you. They can’t baptize you unless you want to be baptized.
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What she meant was that nobody has to accept a baptism that is provided for them.
 
BDawg said:
We do perform a proxy baptism, but we believe a dead person is free to accept or reject it. We generally can’t consult with the dead person to see if he or she wants it.
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Yes, I understand. You can perform it, you just can’t see your results.
 
BDawg said:
Hi twopekinguys,

Notice how Helen Radkey comes to the conclusion that Mormons are violating the agreement. She searches for “Jewish-sounding” names in the records. How does she know they are Holocaust survivors? How does she know that they aren’t some Mormon’s parents or grandparents (which are not covered by the agreement)?

She doesn’t.

She’s just making flimsy assertions because she hates Mormons. Some people who hate Catholics do the same thing.
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Hi BDawg,

I re-read the article (skimmed it actually), and I don’t see where anything says she is entering “jewish sounding” names. However, I did see where the database shows “resubmission”.

If I have missed the portion of the article that shows she is entering “Jewish sounding” names, perhaps you could post it, or direct me to where it is in the article. (I even did a search for the word “sounding” within the article and nothing was found)

As far as “flimsy assertions”, the article does state “she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate Mormon religious rites, including baptisms, had been conducted for these Holocaust victims, some as recently as July.” I would say if she can produce the evidence that it has been done, then there is some credibility on that issue.
 
twopekinguys said:
Hi BDawg,

I re-read the article (skimmed it actually), and I don’t see where anything says she is entering “jewish sounding” names. However, I did see where the database shows “resubmission”.

If I have missed the portion of the article that shows she is entering “Jewish sounding” names, perhaps you could post it, or direct me to where it is in the article. (I even did a search for the word “sounding” within the article and nothing was found)

As far as “flimsy assertions”, the article does state “she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate Mormon religious rites, including baptisms, had been conducted for these Holocaust victims, some as recently as July.” I would say if she can produce the evidence that it has been done, then there is some credibility on that issue.
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Sorry–I have been reading about her for several years, so I was going from memory. That’s her general M.O., and if you search for news articles on her, you can find quite a few. In any case, let’s suppose that this nutball has tracked down some legitimate Holocaust victims whose names were resubmitted by individual Mormons. Has she done the homework to find out whether these names were submitted by Mormons who are related to these Holocaust victims? The LDS Church specifically said they would not restrict those. And I don’t think she has done this homework. Why? Because she doesn’t care whether she is launching legitimate criticisms. She just wants to cause the Mormons some embarassment, because she has some sort of grudge.
 
Cattitude said:
Jewish group wants Mormons to stop proxy baptisms

By DEEPTI HAJELA and JENNIFER DOBNER

Comments?
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I think this Jewish group ought to find something more important to worry about than Mormon proxy baptisms. Maybe they could spend more of their time helping the poor or perhaps even trying to help protect living Jews in Israel. The Mormon effort is the equivalent of praying for the dead. Do Jews take offense at Catholics praying for Holocaust victims?
 
I don’t want this thread to get off track or anything, I’m just asking this question for my own research.

What scripture (not the Book of Mormon) do Mormons use to justify baptism of the dead?

Thanks
 
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