jewish messiah

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blueriver said:
if you asked me why I would tell you…but you can not answer my question…

What criteria did Jesus not fulfill? Pretty straightforward I think.
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I thought someone who goes by the name steveyb3 pretty straightforwardly gave the reason why your question is not answered.

The criteria are all there. Even the most unbelieving Jews understood that Jesus was the Messiah that was foretold by the prophets before him. Remember the walk to Emmaus?

But for some who don’t believe, well no amount of reasoning or evidence will do it. That was why Jesus got killed – because he claimed to be something that they did not believe in.
 
blueriver said:
I asked a question in an effort to understand, not to step on toes…but that question has still not been answered.
I would never say another person’s belief is ficticious, not even Koran or Mormon.
I simply believe my own, if you asked me why I would tell you…but you can not answer my question…
What criteria did Jesus not fulfill? Pretty straightforward I think.
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Of course we can answer your question.

aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

jewsforjudaism.org/questions-a-answers-primary-234/68-the-jewish-messiah/374-messiah–the-criteria

jewfaq.org/looking4.htm

I chose these for their simplicity. I have no idea what you wish to accomplish. The entire Tanach, which you take as a basis for you beliefs, is a polemic against them.

Deuteronomy
Chapter 13

13:1 All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

13:2 If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams–and he give thee a sign or a wonder,

13:3 and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee–saying: ‘Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them’;

13:4 thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God putteth you to proof, to know whether ye do love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

13:5 After the Lord your God shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave.

The Jews passed the test and kept their eternal covenant with God.
 
blueriver said:
I asked a question in an effort to understand, not to step on toes…but that question has still not been answered.
I would never say another person’s belief is ficticious, not even Koran or Mormon.
I simply believe my own, if you asked me why I would tell you…but you can not answer my question…
What criteria did Jesus not fulfill? Pretty straightforward I think.
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What you have to understand is that, with some frequency, people turn up and ask why Jews don’t believe in Jesus and, since there are not many Jewish posters here, for us it can become more than a little tedious - there’s a difference between ‘can not’ and ‘can not be bothered’. For heaven’s sake, how difficult is it to google “Why Jews Don’t Believe In Jesus?” If you had done, you would have found a site like this which would tell you, in some detail, why we don’t.

Most of them will even take the Christian scriptures seriously enough to at least deal with their claims about Jesus - thus saving you from my ‘New Testament - I don’t believe a word of it’ shorthand response.
 
chosen_people said:
Jews do not “denounce” your religious beliefs, we do not accept them, just as we do not denounce Buddha or Buddhism. Jews believe that it is easier for the gentile than for the Jew to get into the world to come than for the Jew as the gentile has only to follow the seven Noahide commandments. There is only one God and we are all his children.

Catholics are the ones who have claimed (at least until Vatican II) that Jews are damned or are going to Hell or are not going to Heaven for following their eternal covenant with God. Now if you believe that Yeshua bar Yosef is a god or a messiah or both you better also believe that he has no problem with the things done against his people in his name over the last two thousand years.
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Catholics are not the only ones who have believed that. In fact, in many cases, they weren’t the worst offenders.

Personally, and I think that the Church would agree, those who have harmed the Jews “in the name of Jesus” will have to deal with some serious punishments for it. We were never instructed to do anything to harm the Jewish people
 
About Jews going to hell, you are referring to those who persecuted and killed Christians. It is one thing to not believe, it is another to maliciously denigrate Christ and goyem as found in some passage of the Talmud. I think this is what such condemnation was referring to.

It went both ways. There were Jews who were allowed to practice their beliefs in Spain…the issue was receiving Communion without belief, which is a sacrilege. St. Theresa of Avila referred briefly to some coming to her with tirades against Christ by some Jewish neighbors…

I have read the lives of a number of saints…they express pity the Jews did not accept Christ. Christ said whatever you do to your neighbor, you do to Him…and those who mistreated the Jews unjustly, they will be judged.

The actual documents on the Inquisition are now coming out, 2003 I believe. And it is documented the Church most of the times freed people brought to trial or accused by the laity.

I was referring to the word ‘fictitious’ by a previous poster. I personally know Hebrew Catholics who believe in Christ as Messiah and are now recognizing the Church as the New Jerusalem…in the mystical sense…Our history cannot be labelled as fictitious.

And you have to also note the anti-Semitism in parts of Europe that are not shared by other Catholics. I was never raised in such a home, and my father always had us remember the Holocaust.

From the faith I received – even through some abusive nuns – always in my heart I believed the Jews are Gods’ chosen people, I thank them for the Psalms and their history, and for giving me the Messiah, and the elements of worship we share fulfilled in the Liturgy of the Mass.

Of all the people I have served, I hold non Christian Jews with the highest esteem, and they in return are very respectful towards me with my faith. My pastor thinks it just as extreme to hate the Church for what happened in Spain hundreds of years ago.

The Jews who believe already have God. It will be God in His time Who will reveal to them the Messiah.

When Vatican II documents talk about people going to hell, the only people it directs the danger of going to hell is directed to we Catholics ourselves. We have received the greatest of graces for salvation. No matter our practices, if we fail in charity, we will be the ones most severely judged than any other peoples. Amen!

Beyond anything else, and being in relationship with Jews who are Catholic Christians, your beliefs are your own.

Blessings.

It is not my job to convert you, nor do I care.
 
KathleenGee said:
I was referring to the word ‘fictitious’ by a previous poster. I personally know Hebrew Catholics who believe in Christ as Messiah and are now recognizing the Church as the New Jerusalem…in the mystical sense…Our history cannot be labelled as fictitious.
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Actually, I used the term ‘pious fiction’ about the Christian scriptures - just as a Christian would do about the Qur’an or Book of Mormon, for example. Of course you believe in them and the arguments ‘establishing’ them as sacred, you wouldn’t be a Christian otherwise.

As to your history, well, you’ve got one and, like everybody else’s, it runs the range from accurate to inaccurate, from reality to myth, from plain to embroidered.

Meanwhile, we all know people who convert to various religions while realizing some ‘truth’ they’ve discovered - it’s particularly impressive if you don’t have to spend too much time with them, I’d suggest, but that’s often a ‘cradle-whatever’ reaction to enthusiastic converts, admirable but far too enthusiastic.
It is not my job to convert you, nor do I care.
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If only everybody else shared that point of view.
 
OK I have read that thankyou, that helps me understand where your beliefs come from. Like I said I neither believe in other beliefs or label them as ficticious but rather am interested in the origins of them.
Thankyou, that has shed light for me, which leaves me with a final question:
Are Jews still waiting for their Messisah (descendant of David) or has the opportunity for this passed?
 
I’ll answer on his behalf if he doesn’t mind. Jews are looking for the Messiah. They are looking to Elijah to come first. If you go into a Synagogue they have an Elijah seat which is a well adorned seat which is left empty and it is where they say Elijah will sit when he comes again. Elijah leads the way for Messiah (Malachi 4) to come. The Jews who aren’t killed in the Gogian invasion of Ezek 38, Zechariah, will accept Jesus as the Messiah. The natural branches are easily grafted back in.
 
steveyb3 said:
I’ll answer on his behalf if he doesn’t mind. Jews are looking for the Messiah.
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But not holding our breath, rather like Christians and their ‘second coming’, of course.
Jews who aren’t killed in the Gogian invasion of Ezek 38, Zechariah, will accept Jesus as the Messiah. The natural branches are easily grafted back in.
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As I said earlier, I do like Christian answers to questions like this, it tells one so much about Christians.
 
I used to think that the Second Coming of Jesus would be accepted as the Messiah by the Jews. A Jewish poster on here informed me that in order for that to be true, the Jewish people would have to accept that the Messiah is Divine and not a man doing the work of God. In other words, it would be almost as much of a theological shift as accepting Christ in the first place.
 
"and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, “There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.” The Jews are still God’s people.
 
So if you’re not still expecting your Messiah, how do you explain God’s word of a coming Messiah in the Old Testament. Do you think he changed his mind?
 
blueriver said:
So if you’re not still expecting your Messiah, how do you explain God’s word of a coming Messiah in the Old Testament.
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The ‘Old Testament’ is a meaningless concept to Jews (think about it). I said we’re not holding our breath - like Christians and the ‘second coming’.
 
Kaninchen said:
The ‘Old Testament’ is a meaningless concept to Jews (think about it). I said we’re not holding our breath - like Christians and the ‘second coming’.
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What do you mean by “meaningless concept”?

The fulfilment of the prophesies in your Bible aren’t important to you!
 
Kaninchen said:
I said we’re not holding our breath - like Christians and the ‘second coming’.
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Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong but it sounds like you belong to the Reform sect of Judaism. I think it’s important to point out that not all sects of Judaism believe that the Messiah is a purely metaphorical concept.
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong but it sounds like you belong to the Reform sect of Judaism.
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You are corrected.
I think it’s important to point out that not all sects of Judaism believe that the Messiah is a purely metaphorical concept.
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Perhaps you’ll point out where I’ve said that the concept was ‘purely metaphorical’?
 
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