jewish messiah

[Kaninchen]

Didn’t claim that you said it directly but your comment did have an aire of Reform Judaism about it.

No, it was just a ‘Jewish shrug’.

 

[KathleenGee]

I know there are Jewish sects that believe in the coming of the Messiah but their perception is someone like King David, more a secular ruler.

There are about 22 Jewish identities in Israel.

As far as Christ coming back, He is not coming back.

Christ will visibly rule after the Last Judgment after the consummation of heaven and earth, and will rule over a new heaven and new earth.

I let all that be in God’s time…try to live my best today.

 

[blueriver]

I thought Judaism was based on the Old Testament. If it is nothing but a “meaningless concept” to you, then where does the meaning of your religion come from?
Again, Im not having a go, just trying to understand where your beliefs come from.
Now I understand even less then before.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

I thought Judaism was based on the Old Testament. If it is nothing but a “meaningless concept” to you, then where does the meaning of your religion come from?

I’ll explain it to you since the banter is becoming painful. The “meaningless concept” is in reference to the description of the Tanakh as the “Old Testament” and the idea that the crucifixion of Jesus rendered the covenant with the Jews and all but 10 of the 613 laws and commandments, provided and required by Yahweh, null and void.

 

[steveyb3]

“Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh.”

The Law of Moses was a temporary Law.

“I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.” If the Law was the final phase, no prophet would need to come in the future.

The Day of Atonement was done every year to show that lasting atonement could not be made under the Law.

The first Covenant was made to the Jews. However it is clear this was not the end of the matter as the promises to Abraham encompass the Gentiles, “and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.” “I will also give you for a light to the nations, that you may be my salvation to the end of the earth.”

The Jews are still God’s people. They are the natural branches who can be easily grafted back in.

Have you read the letter to the Hebrews?

 

[Kaninchen]

Have you read the letter to the Hebrews?

If you’re so keen to convince Jews about Jesus, why not start a thread ‘Why Jews should believe in Jesus’? Then all you Christians can talk to one another about ‘why Jews should believe in Jesus’ to your hearts’ content.

 

[KathleenGee]

Kanichen,

I agree with you…Catholic perspective on Judaism is different than evangelicals’…so it should go on an Evangelical forum.

Kathleen

 

[rinnie]

Kanichen,

I agree with you…Catholic perspective on Judaism is different than evangelicals’…so it should go on an Evangelical forum.

Kathleen

Yes and no. I find it so ironic that Jews and Catholic’s do not see things exactly the same. I really do. Especially because the CC as far as I can see and the Jew’s see the O.T. the same way. It is just that the Jews only have half the book per say. But unless I am incorrect we do see the O.T. in the same light.

I like to watch when I can the show the Jewish Voice. It shows how much we really have in common.

 

[rinnie]

If you’re so keen to convince Jews about Jesus, why not start a thread ‘Why Jews should believe in Jesus’? Then all you Christians can talk to one another about ‘why Jews should believe in Jesus’ to your hearts’ content.

That is up to the power of the HS to do. If Jesus came here and couldn’t do it, I am sure we couldn’t. If reading the N.T. can’t convince you nothing can. But I think many people forget about the Jews that did indeed follow Jesus. We would not have the Apostles and the word of God if not for the Jews. Many Jews are and were very Loyal to Christ.

And you said it yourself then all you Christians can talk to ONE ANOTHER. But you did say one thing correct because of our faith in Jesus are hearts are indeed content!

 

[rinnie]

I used to think that the Second Coming of Jesus would be accepted as the Messiah by the Jews. A Jewish poster on here informed me that in order for that to be true, the Jewish people would have to accept that the Messiah is Divine and not a man doing the work of God. In other words, it would be almost as much of a theological shift as accepting Christ in the first place.

But Ralph wouldn’t they HAVE to accept him then in order to be received into the Kingdom of God?

 

[ralphinal]

But Ralph wouldn’t they HAVE to accept him then in order to be received into the Kingdom of God?

I might not have been clear.

If Jesus IS the Messiah, and the Second Coming to us is the first coming to the Jews, there would need to be a MAJOR shift in understanding among the Jews.

I am not saying that they won’t accept him or that they do not have to. What I am saying is that they rule that out as a possibility because under traditional Jewish thought, the Messiah is not God.

If I am wrong, I hope our little bunny corrects me

 

[KathleenGee]

I refer Jews to Hebrew Catholics as they can best explain.

 

[Kaninchen]

Especially because the CC as far as I can see and the Jew’s see the O.T. the same way.

Not even vaguely true - “Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus and Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus” is becoming a mantra of mine on CAF.

The two religions don’t work the same way at all, they’re paradigmatically different, the whole focus is different - it’s something that Christians really need to come to terms with if they’re trying to understand Judaism.

 

[Kaninchen]

What I am saying is that they rule that out as a possibility because under traditional Jewish thought, the Messiah is not God.

If I am wrong, I hope our little bunny corrects me

No, traditionally, Messiah is not a divinity, just a sort of ‘Super King David’ (cutting a very long story short).

 

[blueriver]

I’ll explain it to you since the banter is becoming painful. The “meaningless concept” is in reference to the description of the Tanakh as the “Old Testament” and the idea that the crucifixion of Jesus rendered the covenant with the Jews and all but 10 of the 613 laws and commandments, provided and required by Yahweh, null and void.

So then it’s like saying God made errors he did not correct.
I find this very hard to believe since God is perfect and cannot make mistakes, particularly not 603 of them!

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

So then it’s like saying God made errors he did not correct.

Why would you consider laws and commandments provided by God to be errors? More importantly, why would God bother providing an additional 603 laws and commandments only to nullify them at a later date? The prophesied Messiah isn’t supposed to nullify the law; he’s supposed to uphold and enforce it.

 

[ralphinal]

As far as the Laws and commandments “nullified” by God, a former Jewish poster on here explained it this way.

When God pulled Israel out of Egypt, they came but they brought some of Egypt with them. The transition from the animal offering to a system of offering ourselves through prayers alone would not be quick and easy. The system transitioned them from what was familiar to the new means, at which time the temple was taken from them until the Messiah comes.

Think about this: setting aside Jesus, it has been almost 2000 years since the majority of the OT laws were in effect, anyway

 

[LutheranDK]

What’s your belief that the Qur’an or Book of Mormon are fictitious based on? (In other words, it would be up to you to establish that it wasn’t).

No - affirmanti incumbit probatio.
“The burden of evidence falls upon the one who makes the claim”
You have claimed the NT as fictitious - now you must prove your statement.

 

[KathleenGee]

I got in at the tail end of a talk on liturgy by Dr Scott Hahn…how in Western culture, we tend to come to liturgy last…

A deacon said the best understanding of theology is prayerful study, and second degree is when we study it intellectually.

Dr Hahn spoke of Abraham, Saul…the recurring themes of the altar and sacrifice…how the future Messiah would be Priest/King not political king.

Want to order that DVD… Spirit and Letters, Mike Aquilina, host. Mr Aquilina has studied early liturgy of Christian faith…how we Catholics draw on the development of the Mass that drew on the NT Hebrews…parts of ancient liturgy…the use of stone, water, candle…sacrifice…

 

[Xavierlives]

No, traditionally, Messiah is not a divinity, just a sort of ‘Super King David’ (cutting a very long story short).

Have you ever heard of a theory or theology or concept within the Jewish Faith that says that there is always a Messiah-in-waiting on the earth and that all that is required is God’s annointing to get the ball rolling?